i can understand why you can be so suspicious and paranoid about your own governemnt. but there is simply no way the US government could orchestrate this, and fail to do something simple like plant a nuclear device in Iraq. in fact, had they done that, we probably wouldn't even be talking about the subject...
no offense, but your goverment just isn't that smart. and people saying "were the planes real? it was faked on TV; it was a military jet; it was a missile; pentagon wasn't hit by plane; etc etc". but what's far more plausible is that everything took place as the official story claims, and while the US government had warnings about this happening, they didn't do anything about it. so no actual involvement, just the knowledge it was being planned. and you could argue that they *let* it happen for political leverage. but the bush government was far less aggressive prior to 9/11 on terrorism and al qaeda than bill clinton was. so again, i think it was just a case of ineptitude
Stalin ignored the warning signs leading up to Operation Barbarossa but people don't question it as a conspiracy because he didn't benefit from that.
In today's world people in power use crisis situations to get what they want. Bush wanted to invade Iraq since taking office, 9/11 just gave him the political capital to do so. Oil companies are using high gas prices to persuade the public to allow offshore and ANWR drilling despite the fact that these will not lower gas prices and that said companies already have millions of acres upon which they can drill. This doesn't mean 9/11 and high gas prices are conspiracies, it's just tempting to see them as such because people are exploiting them for their own benefit.
Stalin ignored the warning signs leading up to Operation Barbarossa but people don't question it as a conspiracy because he didn't benefit from that.
One thing Stalin can't be criticized for is wanting to come dome hard und fast on the fascists from the get go (wtf do I work for espn?). He was the first one to attempt to build an alliance but the omg cappie bloc wanted to let them run free for a little while longer and see if they couldn't get rid of that red menace without any of the dirty work taking up their resources.
@adversity1: please stop trying to convince other people of your opinion.
if you want to take everything as a truth your government tells you, it's your thing.
but it's the right of every person to be sceptical.
everybody's free to believe what he/she wants.
don't mess with that. srsly.
Jockel wrote:@adversity1: please stop trying to convince other people of your opinion.
if you want to take everything as a truth your government tells you, it's your thing.
but it's the right of every person to be sceptical.
everybody's free to believe what he/she wants.
don't mess with that. srsly.
Yeah, please don't spread your government propaganda here. Anyone who takes a minute to look at what happened on 9/11 will realize that what the United States claims happened (as per the 9/11 Commission Report) is a bunch of bullshit.
Now I do believe that everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But if you managed to form this opinion from what the mainstream media has told you, you're just sheep following the herd.
Jockel wrote:@adversity1: please stop trying to convince other people of your opinion.
if you want to take everything as a truth your government tells you, it's your thing.
but it's the right of every person to be sceptical.
everybody's free to believe what he/she wants.
don't mess with that. srsly.
When did I deny anyone's right to be skeptical? Where did I take the government line?
spongdangly wrote:Yeah, please don't spread your government propaganda here. Anyone who takes a minute to look at what happened on 9/11 will realize that what the United States claims happened (as per the 9/11 Commission Report) is a bunch of bullshit.
Actually the opposite is true. That anyone who spends 20 minutes looking into the facts that hold up the conspiracy allegations about 9/11 will discover that conspiracy theorists habitually use half-truths and facts pulled out of context to assemble really brittle arguments. If they spend 40 minutes on it they will likely realize that neo-nazis and the reactionary American right have spent more time than anyone distorting the history of 9/11 and creating these lies which they try to pass off as exposes on the New World Order.
But you seem pretty confident. If the 9/11 commission report and the NIST report are 'a bunch of bullshit', then surely you'll be able to indicate which portions you disagree with.
You took the governments side from the start and like I said I've come to no conclusion. Even if I had first hand proof of their being no guilty parties in our government I still might side with the conspiracy theorists. You know why? Because anyone who would side with any government is an ignorant asshole. Human's as a whole who get into a point of high social power are corrupt, any government, anywhere, anytime. Every bad thing you here about a government doing you should believe, because for every one thing you hear about them doing, their are ten things they did you didn't hear about. Ya'll's views were slanted from the start of this thread too, so fuck that I'm not open-minded shit. All the document's you mentioned were made by biased traditionalists who never would have looked at it from the other way anyway(No better and no worst then the conspiracy theorists I'll admit).
I'm not coming back in this thread again so don't bother writing a response.
I did great so much water and milk that I threw up when I was little.
Let me qualify my statement by showing you all this link.
Both sides have some good arguments, but both also state a lot of crap.
I mean yeah, most of the conspiracy stuff may not be true, but that doesn't automatically prove that the governments version is right AND VICE VERSA.
jpj wrote:
...if you truthers want a debate, we can have a debate.
Dale wrote:I'm not coming back in this thread again so don't bother writing a response.
...or not
what me and adversity are saying is that if you think certain parts of the comission report and nist report are wrong, say which bits you think that is.
i'm a bit late to this particular conspiracy, but when i learned of it, i ended up reading/watching into it through the night, and it consumed a lot my thought for a few days. if there are things which you doubt, chances are that you haven't done enough of your own research.
and this isn't a case of taking sides, it's about truth, evidence and facts.
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
Let me just summarize: if you are seeking the 9/11 "truth", you have already ruined yourself for any actual discovery. Use the evidence that's available and make rational decisions, like virtually every single respected intellectual person in the United States and worldwide has done. Don't you think every scientist, author, and other type of scholar worldwide would have picked up on this if it was worth pursuing? This isn't some big discovery -- just because it's deliberately controversial doesn't mean it's right.
Unfortunately, this isn't a two-sided issue. One side is blatantly, obviously, painfully incorrect.
As far as denying someone's right to be skeptical: calling someone a bit silly for failing to coolly and reasonably reach an intelligent conclusion is not denying their right to be skeptical. It's doing what anybody who cares about rational thought would do... that is, pointing out irrationality and failing to tolerate it.
Also, try to snap out of the mindset that those who follow the "mainstream truth" (how ridiculous is that phrase) are simply sheeplike minions of the US government. That's childish. Even if you don't believe you're implying this, I'm afraid you are.
Dale wrote:You took the governments side from the start and like I said I've come to no conclusion. Even if I had first hand proof of their being no guilty parties in our government I still might side with the conspiracy theorists. You know why? Because anyone who would side with any government is an ignorant asshole. Human's as a whole who get into a point of high social power are corrupt, any government, anywhere, anytime. Every bad thing you here about a government doing you should believe, because for every one thing you hear about them doing, their are ten things they did you didn't hear about. Ya'll's views were slanted from the start of this thread too, so fuck that I'm not open-minded shit. All the document's you mentioned were made by biased traditionalists who never would have looked at it from the other way anyway(No better and no worst then the conspiracy theorists I'll admit).
I'm not coming back in this thread again so don't bother writing a response.
I'd like to respond, just for fun. You are insane.
Dale wrote:You took the governments side from the start and like I said I've come to no conclusion. Even if I had first hand proof of their being no guilty parties in our government I still might side with the conspiracy theorists. You know why? Because anyone who would side with any government is an ignorant asshole. Human's as a whole who get into a point of high social power are corrupt, any government, anywhere, anytime. Every bad thing you here about a government doing you should believe, because for every one thing you hear about them doing, their are ten things they did you didn't hear about. Ya'll's views were slanted from the start of this thread too, so fuck that I'm not open-minded shit. All the document's you mentioned were made by biased traditionalists who never would have looked at it from the other way anyway(No better and no worst then the conspiracy theorists I'll admit).
I'm not coming back in this thread again so don't bother writing a response.
I'd like to respond, just for fun. You are insane.
I kinda hope there's a giant convention for 9/11 truthers, anarchists, Ron Paul supporters, Intelligent Design people, and Holocaust deniers. It seems like it would be quite the party.
honestly, any doubts or queries you have will more than likely have a logical answer (with evidence) if you take the time to look for it. don't let your anti-government feelings cloud the issue though
but what do you really think is more likely: the bush administration pulled off the biggest conspiracy, broadcast live around the world, involving hundereds if not thousands of people, and pulled it off? or that the CIA is really really really shit at their job...?
with any luck this thread might turn out just as cool as The God Idea
RegalSin wrote:Videogames took my life away like the Natives during colonial times.
jpj wrote:er, i was serious about having a proper debate
but what do you really think is more likely: the bush administration pulled off the biggest conspiracy, broadcast live around the world, involving hundereds if not thousands of people, and pulled it off? or that the CIA is really really really shit at their job...?
with any luck this thread might turn out just as cool as The God Idea
We probably won't get this.
Nowadays, as Loose Change has been repeatedly debunked, and the holes in the conspiracy theories are well-documented, the hard core of people behind these ideas have basically retreated into their own obscurantisms. The theories themselves however have gone onto the level of popular myth which is why it is possible for Jockel, Dale and SpongDangly to simply assert that yo, like...inside job. They're doing nothing more than striking a limp pose against the 'accepted version' of reality which tends to collapse when confronted by facts and logic.
As for me, I'm new to these boards but it strikes me as hilarious that I'm being painted as pro-government. I was in a riot against police violence two months ago and a demonstration against the same incident two weeks ago. Gov is about the last person I trust, oh yeah right above conspiracy theorists who are the bottom rung.
captpain wrote:As far as denying someone's right to be skeptical: calling someone a bit silly for failing to coolly and reasonably reach an intelligent conclusion is not denying their right to be skeptical. It's doing what anybody who cares about rational thought would do... that is, pointing out irrationality and failing to tolerate it.
That nicely sums up my stance on religion
People who are sceptical of science and think religion is a valid alternative are a bit silly*...
*Well, actually they are total morons and a danger to society.
captpain wrote:As far as denying someone's right to be skeptical: calling someone a bit silly for failing to coolly and reasonably reach an intelligent conclusion is not denying their right to be skeptical. It's doing what anybody who cares about rational thought would do... that is, pointing out irrationality and failing to tolerate it.
That nicely sums up my stance on religion
People who are sceptical of science and think religion is a valid alternative are a bit silly*...
*Well, actually they are total morons and a danger to society.
I don't think it could provide me with any new insights.
The human susceptibility to superstition/religion is a congenital mental disorder; religion itself is a contagious disease. Depending on your acculturation and on how well your other mental traits are developed, you are either more, less or not at all prone to fall victim to it. I'd rather not have people with mental problems tell me what to think and how to live my life. What more is there to know?
