GD: Giga Wing Generations

[Rob]

End of stage bonus works like this:

sec*10m + %*1m + bombs*10m * multiplier * 10

250m + 100m + 40m * 999m * 10 = 389,9999,9961,00000000

If the time bonus was 10 times, you can imagine. I've only gotten perfect bonus once (when I first started playing it, sadly) and I think it was just the complete time bonus (100m), but that was just stage 1. If that's all, time is clearly the biggest figure and there wouldn't be much difference between 80% and 100% (like basically 2 seconds on the boss). More importantly is just getting the 10m kills in the stage... But I'll check this weekend if I can manage to boot Dragon Blaze away.

As for the 3.2kei... If you were using two ships you could probably max out by 3 stages, 4 for sure. So those final 2-3 stages, everything is at max value. I assume they could also destroy the boss faster and sweep up much more medals (even when they aren't towards the multiplier they're worth points). At 300-370m (multiplier), I get about 300kei during the 5th stage, with sloppy play. Since their multiplier would be 3x that, and they'd probably hit everything, that's 1000kei during the stage alone. Add the near 400kei bonus and that's half of the score on stage 5.

[Rob]

OK, tested the "Perfect Bonus" (compared stage 1 and 3). Conclusion, nothing extra than you would expect. Just 100*1m (*10, as everything else overall).

Also btw, you can destroy the crystal on stage 5 (finally managed it), so it does count towards the percentage. Getting 100% is hard on 4 and 5 even when trying to destroy everything and ignoring medals, but it doesn't make much of a difference (say 95% compared to 100%).

--

Going back to the question about shot medals. Noticed something worth pointing out, especially if you're going to use Hawk: the "side shots" don't trigger any shot medals. For Robin that's the cylindrical fire streams, so it's pretty hard to not hit enemies with it. If you sweep sideways into lesser enemies you get nothing or near nothing in the way of shot medals, so it's best to hold fire until they are in front. For a smaller type of enemy I noticed a variant of mainly 2-5 medals, but I'm not sure how to ensure the most.

Not powering up - not practical. Power-ups bounce around the screen for the entire stage/boss if you don't pick them up, so I couldn't even bother to test anything out.

[Randorama]

Uhm, i don't know what to think right now. I agree that the multiplier makes sense with a tag play and the said approach, it's just that the compilers of the records on Aiva are usually nitpicky, if you can retrieve the scores and check, it would be cool. If not, there has to be a very practical way to pump up the score...maybe the perfect bonus must be taken consecutively to be increased (i.e. you get a multiplier if you get two in a row?Without dying, perhaps, need to try). If not, i'm claiming the Hawk record and focus on score attack, i think. I think my basic proposal in the journals (i.e. most of the score and medals from stages 4 and 5, huge push on the multiplier on the very last stage, etc) can be the best explanation, if really the Robin's score is so high.

By the way: how did you destroy the cristal, lots of point-blanking with the shield? If so, i can picture a better approach on the whole section.

Maybe.

[Rob]

There's something wrong with that site's compiled GWG scores.

HAWK

ROBIN

EAGLE

TAG PLAY

GROUSE

4.598.128.872.383.385.520

32.321.159.000.887.186.380

10.476.621.603.724.645.770

8.172.792.075.718.031.790

12.825.242.764.795.894.000

Eagle and Grouse look right, but Hawk only 459kei? No, I think I got a higher score just messing around the other day. Tag play at 800kei? Huh, that's less than the Eagle and Grouse records? And Robin's at 3200 while the others are 3 times lower is outrageous. I can see a 50% advantage, as I've said. 300%, someone would have to explain that. I don't think there's a way you can get that kind of score without a maxed out multiplier before stage 5. That would be a GW1-esque gap, except all ships were near the same score no matter how slow or weak. I don't see why that would change so dramatically now.

Destroyed the crystal with Hawk, point blanking, used a bomb. Just wanted to see if I could destroy it.

[Randorama]

while the 3,2k kei score seems pretty weird, the other possibility (800kei, inverted tag and Robin's score) seems too low. I would be surprised if no decent player didn't at least tried to do better, frankly. For the rest, i think it would make sense a 2,2k kei score, right now: yay for speculations, but the fifth stage must really be squeezed to insane levels, if what i did write in my journals is true. In that case (i.e. the last stage alone being worth a shitload of multiplier points), i can see a score above 2,7k kei...

By the way, it's me or if you just stay relatively low and to the centre, during the very last wave of enemies on stage 5, you have a safe spot? Also, the second form of boss, first attack, is simple once you move from the centre to one side (i.e. you follow the holes in the rotating attacks).Also, the very first attack (first form) is simple if you go to one of the corners, as the green spam on the orange circular bullets tends to be focused on the central part of the screen.

Also: fourth boss, spiralling attack. when it becomes pretty irregular, you can reflect for about a +2k increase, then you can hide in one corner.

Also: the third boss has a very last attack which is pretty good to reflect, best thing to do is trigger the second form at about...36-35 seconds left. It's me or bombs are useless on the medallion? Tried to speed up its destruction, i can't get less than 33 seconds

[Rob]

while the 3,2k kei score seems pretty weird, the other possibility (800kei, inverted tag and Robin's score) seems too low. I would be surprised if no decent player didn't at least tried to do better, frankly. For the rest, i think it would make sense a 2,2k kei score, right now: yay for speculations, but the fifth stage must really be squeezed to insane levels, if what i did write in my journals is true. In that case (i.e. the last stage alone being worth a shitload of multiplier points), i can see a score above 2,7k kei...

Nah, the multiplier building at the end has less value than you think. What would the time bonus on 5 be? All that's left is stage 6, which is practically a fairly weak (as far as scoring) bonus stage.

By the way, it's me or if you just stay relatively low and to the centre, during the very last wave of enemies on stage 5, you have a safe spot?

That's what I do, but I thought you spoke of a closer safe spot?

Also: the third boss has a very last attack which is pretty good to reflect, best thing to do is trigger the second form at about...36-35 seconds left. It's me or bombs are useless on the medallion? Tried to speed up its destruction, i can't get less than 33 seconds

Yeah, the bombs are pretty much worthless as far as destruction goes (for Robin, at least). I just got an idea for the third boss...

[Randorama]

Nah, the multiplier building at the end has less value than you think. What would the time bonus on 5 be? All that's left is stage 6, which is practically a fairly weak (as far as scoring) bonus stage.

What do you propose, then, 2,2k kei? It would make sense, given our current knowledge

I still think that more can be squeezed "easily" from the game...i'd say that 700M as a multiplier is doable. Something like 100+100+70+200+250+etc...then, 750M even. Of course, the last stage should give half of the total score. Can you make some comparisons with the other GWs? Maybe there are some common traits that could help us...

That's what I do, but I thought you spoke of a closer safe spot?

...Never mind

Yeah, the bombs are pretty much worthless as far as destruction goes (for Robin, at least). I just got an idea for the third boss...

Tell me!

Please?

[Rob]

Nah, the multiplier building at the end has less value than you think. What would the time bonus on 5 be? All that's left is stage 6, which is practically a fairly weak (as far as scoring) bonus stage.

What do you propose, then, 2,2k kei? It would make sense, given our current knowledge

I still think that more can be squeezed "easily" from the game...i'd say that 700M as a multiplier is doable. Something like 100+100+70+200+250+etc...then, 750M even. Of course, the last stage should give half of the total score. Can you make some comparisons with the other GWs? Maybe there are some common traits that could help us...

Yeah, that seems accurate, but still in the final few stages I'm not sure if they will be that high for practical playing (it would take perfect playing during the stage and very efficient boss tactics to get 250m and not lose points in the process, sacrificing time bonus).

Last stage (I'll use this quote from your journal):

If this makes sense, an extremely quick kill on the last boss, for instance, at a maxed out multiplier, with no bombs used, would be: 20secs (40M)+ 100% d.r. (100M) + 4 bombs (40M)= 180Mx1B= 18,0000,0000,0000,0000 (18 kei).

(41 seconds (best time I've got) *10m + 4 bombs *10m)*999m*10 = 449,9999,9955,00000000

So at best you'll be getting around 450kei. As the game is, probably more like 200-250kei. There is no destruction rate for this level, because there's only 1 enemy, so I guess they decided to substitute that bonus with a basic enemy value from destroying it. There's also the medal points to consider for this stage, but even then I think this stage is only 300kei.

Compared to other games:

Giga Wing 1 - Important differences are more secrets, much more to maximizing points by bonuses (destruction rate/boss/bomb bonus doubling). Medals are worth nothing, so milking is pointless when the multiplier is maxed and the player can concentrate on 100% destruction rates and fast boss kills, while the non-maxed player is stuck milking. This accounts for huge gaps between top scores and competent scores, as well as the secrets.

Giga Wing 2 - Simplified level bonus system (more than either GW1 and GWG) because time bonuses are low and on top of that worthless compared to milking, which leads to... Medals are worth quite a bit of additional points. At a maxed out multiplier a volcanon is worth around 300 trillion points. Most points are in medals and base point values of enemies and mostly bosses (last three bosses/stages are about 66% of the score). Oh, and a weird thing about GW2's time bonuses is that they're cumulative. So by the end it's evey remaining second from every boss figured into the boss. And that's still less than a handful of volcanon medals.

GWG - A bit of both. Bosses are worth very little and the (time) bonuses are huge, but they aren't as complicated as in GW1 (no "boss break" - just time - no doubling). I think Takumi designed this one so the multiplier would be nearly impossible to max out and that the benefits of that would be questionable even then. Where GW1 is "max out, ignore medals, focus on the bonuses" and GW2 is "max out, keep milking," GWG is balance multiplier gain with boss time bonuses (which are worth probably a third or more). Another major difference from both previous games is bonuses aren't multiplied by stage, which says to me that indeed Takumi meant for the base multiplier to keep increasing throughout the game, instead of maxing out.

I think it's much more like GW2 than GW1, where it's just a lot of basics for steady gain.

Tell me!

Please?

I'll have to try some things. Probably a bogus idea. On the first form I just destroy the feet first. Maybe save them for the end, when there are aimed shots? Reflect against the feet? I don't know, this boss is underwhelming.

Lacking real motivation at the moment, though.

[Rob]

IlMrm got these from the latest Arcadia:

Eagle: 1239 7333 5654 9358 1700
Grouse: 1500 7750 4829 2547 8660
Hawk: 1572 9959 6005 6585 3640

That's some ass kicking. I feel embarrassed that they've (he's? I think this is all by the same player) outdone my Robin score with such terrible ships.

[Randorama]

Well, i feel relieved from a point of view, someone else than us is playing the game

Still, the Robin score sounds like a mistery...

by the way, yesterday i got a good score on Stage 4, and i'm consistently in the 140-160M range.I think that, however, 200-250M are doable, as i still keep it safe on a couple of points (Maybe sacrificing the time bonus and destroying the boss on the second spiral attack). The fifth stage is also worth a lot (well, i fucked up all of my runs yesterday, but if my best sloppy score is 180M...). I would say, then, that a the overall total may be:

90+90+70??+250??+300??+etc=800??M

As a final multiplier. The core difference between stages 4 and 5 is the approach...mainly, the fifth stage should be 22k-23k+10k (at least) on the boss, the fourth 25+7k.

I don't think (considering other "Taito-published" which actually means a strict supervision on some issues like length, rythm, etc) that the max out is possible, right now, but i suppose that a balance between quickly squeezing medals (hence the effectiveness of point-blanking) and speed becomes the key for fourth and fifth stages only. I mean: While a sloppy play can work on first three stages (playing more or less like the first GW, mainly), on the last 3 stages you have to be extremely effective with reflects.

I mean, the whole fourth stage is about placing the right reflect (if you're below +1k per reflect, you're doing something wrong) and then blow up everything before it even shoots while you recharge. Also, if your reflection is well placed, the 1M value is almost granted. I can say that with this approach in mind, a lot of sections become far more obvious...

Quick note: on the fourth stage, the part with the giant cannon (beginning of the carrier), if you place yourself slightly below the cannon, you will maximize the reflection.

One thing is sure: this game is a keeper, even if the Robin score is right and thus we're clueless (well, i'm still at less than 2 months on it...) about all of its tricks, i really enjoy the overall product

[Rob]

Hawk is giving me nearly the same results as Robin. With a little practice I'm sure I could nearly match it. (ex. 74m on stage 1 compared to an 80m average). I still don't like the slow-ish speed, but the speed is not that important when you have a plan and adapt it. Those last three scores make perfect sense in my mind. Hawk isn't too much different from Robin. Grouse less and Eagle much less. Eagle is a trainwreck but even then doesn't score too bad, which shows the importance of speed in this game. You can still get clumps of medals with clunky ships.

[Randorama]

Eagle has homing missiles.
I repeat, Eagle has homing missiles, the sucker!
But seriously, the homing missiles become a pain at some point (stage 3 on, i would say), at least for point-blank purposes.I think that, in a case of a 2,2k (and not 3,2k) score, 1,7k (kei) score is doable and somewhat easy. Rest is, yes, precision, a realm in which i will venture only in distant future, maybe a parallel one...but seriously, for the moment i think that there must be a mistake in the score listing (would be surprising but...).

However: I'm behind you in terms of time, i think, but as long as you're in the mood to push up to 1,7-1,9 k, that's fine, i'll give you battle From that point on, i think i'' switch to Hawk, as i would like to be closer to one of the WRs...silly, i know, but that's one good method to define goals

On topic: i forgot to take the scores for the score attack entries, but i remember that i scored (roughly) +29k (multi.) on fourth stage (failed two reflects on boss and poor final part on stage, 23,5+k/29k),and +31k on fifth. Also, i finally managed to completely dodge the first attack of the second form (ehr, fifth boss). If you time in order to reflect the green circular spam, it's pretty doable. Also, for reasons of time and score, it's better to take down the first form at roughly 60 secs (or, after the blue aimed streams). Ah, btw: the very last attack on the third boss is worth roughly a +1k.

I think that maybe 800-830M as a final multiplier is doable though, mainly a potential 250M/300M on foruth and fifth. Still, my rough estimate top score would be 2,4k, does it make sense to you?

[Rob]

However: I'm behind you in terms of time, i think, but as long as you're in the mood to push up to 1,7-1,9 k, that's fine, i'll give you battle From that point on, i think i'' switch to Hawk, as i would like to be closer to one of the WRs...silly, i know, but that's one good method to define goals

Hah, I just like to play as long as I can see chunks of points I haven't capitalized on. Once it becomes a matter of lots of minor refinements I get tired, but 1800kei is my goal for now. 2000kei+ seems possible but really hard.

[Rob]

Some notes on taped game:

MEDAL VALUES:

I really wanted to figure this out, because it was amounting to more than I expected for the 5th boss. It turns out the values are-

+0 = multiplier * 10 * medal number
+3 = multiplier * 10 * medal number * 3 (and I would guess any other medal would just be times its base value)

Example:

500 * 450,000,000 * 10 * ~25,000 * 3 = 16.8kei

Some reflects I was getting about 50kei, so it must've been more +3s, +0s (while shooting) and some extra points for shooting. And then I died and it went back to nearly nothing for the medals.

[Randorama]

1.40 2.120 3.300 (well, 300 for the first three stages) 4.900 (1k??). 2k (2,1k??) 6.2,4k (2,5??k).

For Robin, of course. I don't think that limits for Hawk and Grouse are much lower, Whereas Eagle seems to be already near its maximum...I would say 2k for Hawk and Grouse, 1,5k-1,6k for Eagle. I tried out the fifth boss' trick for the though pattern (first of second form), and it seems to work...So far, a complete run on the fifth stage has given me 20k/32k. I think that the stage has about 4k more, and maybe the boss too...

Ah, also, i think that the upper corner for the fourth boss' spiralling attack is a complete safe spot (i.e. no possibility to get hit, regardless of the bullets' trajectories),after a few tries.Final note: how much should come from the fifth boss, in terms of point?

[Rob]

1.40 2.120 3.300 (well, 300 for the first three stages) 4.900 (1k??). 2k (2,1k??) 6.2,4k (2,5??k).

Final note: how much should come from the fifth boss, in terms of point?

How close are these points to what you've gotten? I don't know. 1-3 are fine, as I've gotten about 320kei after the third. 4 is fine too, since I've had about 860kei and certainly more is possible, but the 4 to 5 jump is a bit unrealistic. Well unless you can get your multiplier estimates (90/90/70/250), in which case the score on stage 2 should be 150ish.

Example score: 673.6kei (stage 5)

If I didn't make a few mistakes on the boss, I'll just say around 750-800kei. About 300 (~375m) on stage, 300 (450m) during boss and 200 (500m) for bonus. Bumping those figures up:

.8 (575) + .67 (650) + .4 (800) = 460 + 433 + 320 = ~1220kei (pretty rough, but still fairly accurate I'd guess - your bonus would probably be a little lower and closer to 1100kei due to necessary milking to get the 300m)

So if you can get those highs + another 300m on stage 5, 1100kei is possible. I need to try milking the stage 4 boss some to see what difference it can make in multplier. It has to be a large difference to be worth it, because I've done a similar rough estimate as above and if the difference was only 50m (like up to 180m), but I lost 30 seconds on the boss to get it, my gain would be around 9kei for the rest of the game (96 loss in bonus, 105 gained in points thereafter). So yeah, that's a pretty accurate max (2.4/5kei) if the multiplier estimates are reasonable (250m and 300m). I think I'm just going to go after 2000kei, since I'm pretty close but not too close.

[Randorama]

Uhm, i think that it's more like 400k after the first three stages ( i usually don't check ), maybe about 700k on the fourth stage alone, and about 900k on the fifth stage. Regardless of the exact values, i think that the 66% of the score comes from the fourth and fifth. speaking of which: an approximate contribution for score medals seems to be about 20%, in the sense that if you shoot out stuff properly, you get some more points.

I don't think that your approach (...our, i suspect) to stage 4 is complete, as i am able to actually pull off pretty high values on the stage alone, while dying here and there. I still have put all pieces together, but i think that the boss is not worth more than +6-7k mult. points. My reasoning is actually simple: stage four is about doing well the level itself, stage 5 about doing well the boss.

Bah, i need to organize thoughts a bit and make an entry on the journal, too.

At any case: what are your partial values for multip. points on stage 4? Or on other stages, for that matter...

[Rob]

speaking of which: an approximate contribution for score medals seems to be about 20%, in the sense that if you shoot out stuff properly, you get some more points.

You mean points from medals? I think it's higher than 20%. More like 50%+. Because on the boss there's nothing for points but shooting and medals and you can still pull in a few hundred kei. Points for medals shoots up a lot as medal count increases.

I don't think that your approach (...our, i suspect) to stage 4 is complete, as i am able to actually pull off pretty high values on the stage alone, while dying here and there. I still have put all pieces together, but i think that the boss is not worth more than +6-7k mult. points. My reasoning is actually simple: stage four is about doing well the level itself, stage 5 about doing well the boss.

By high values what are you referring to (points/medals)? While dying (I guess not medals then?)? Well, I think both stages are important to do well, although you're right that stage 4's is probably easier to mess up. The thing about the 4 boss is that the first part self destructs pretty quickly, so you almost have to be shooting it anyways to maximize value. And the second form is pretty fragile, so there's no shot medals after the reflect medals, which kind of makes milking that much more questionable. I wish I could test different approaches to these bosses without playing through entire games (w/out score attack inflations). This game really needed stage restarts like GW2.

At any case: what are your partial values for multip. points on stage 4? Or on other stages, for that matter...

You mean like I did for level 1? I don't really pay attention during 4 that much or have played it as many times. I have about 10,000 after the floor panel turrets and 23-24,000 before the boss. Only about 26,000 after.

[8 1/2]

Hey guys, I just picked up this game and I've been reading over your posts here and I'm trying to get a grasp on what's going on. So far my basic stategy for playing is to try and get point-blanks on everything I can. When I get in trouble I use my reflect to move in close and point-blank until it runs out and then retreat. I've just been repeating this process, but I know I'm missing a lot. Could anyone explain simply how the medals work to multiply score and what is meant by time bonuses?

[Rob]

Even though 10,000,000s are flashing all over the screen, don't sacrifice medals for them, especially in the early stages. They're not worth much early on and medals are worth about as much or more towards the end of the stage (hundred enemies on stage at 10m, thousands of medals up to 100 thousand apiece). I point blank when I can, but I don't worry about it until 4 & 5 because it's not that much. Most of them are pretty automatic with reflecting.

Medals work like the other GWs except for the addition of the +0 medals. Grab a +3 (reflect medal) and you've got medal count: 3, multiplier value: 3. Grab another +3 and you've got medal value: 6, multiplier value: 9. The value of the individual medal adds to the medal count (shown whenever you grab a new medal), and that medal count is added to the multiplier. Shot medals are +0s, so only got for them when you can't reflect something of worth from an enemy. On bosses you'll want to save the +0s as much towards the end as possible (building up medal count first with reflected +3s). Everything has a base point value that is multiplied by the multiplier (medals, enemies, power-ups, stage bonus).

Time bonus: On the first few bosses most definitely milk the boss to the end of the timer, but after that it's debatable if you've got a large multiplier and the benefits of the bonus outweigh the milking potential. On stage 3 the level kind of sucks for medals and the boss isn't much better, so there's no great worth in drawing it out. Stage 4 offers a pretty massive time bonus (56 seconds possible or more). Final stage offers an inconsequential amount of medals. Time bonus is the largest piece of the end of stage bonus. It's the time remaining on the boss counter.

[8 1/2]

Wow, thanks Rob. I didn't expect such a comprehensive response. I really don't care that the display is so lacking in this game. It's fun and fast and deep. I can definitely see myself putting some real time in this one.

[Randorama]

Ok, some observations on stage 3: i think that the train itself is not the most important enemy in the stage, in the sense that the biplane spammers seem to be more rewarding. One thing i'm noticing is that any milking opportunity is forbidden, on this stage. The basic idea is this: take down the small planes, once the train dives in, take immediately down the lowest wagon, then (still doubtful on this passage), sweep from one side to the other on the slow enemies moving in an arc. Once there's the sequence of spammers plus train, i reflect from one side against the spammers and use the remaining reflected bullets plus the normal shots to take down the wagons. After finishing this section, there are the two flying mountains: i weaken the upper one, reflect the bullets from the lower one and then take down the upper one, trying to collect as many medals as i can while finishing off the second tower. I point-blank the rising plane as soon as it appears on my level, while also shooting, so i trigger the two extra planes...Is this what you just have found out?

How do you do the rest?

[Rob]

I destroy the first mound immediately w/ reflect, then the second (I have to dart over for a few medals from the first). Yeah, I hadn't been triggering these before. It hasn't seemed to help yet, but it seems I should be able to get an extra few hundred out of it.

Notice that in the blimp-like enemies that follow there's one that doesn't emerge from the scenery? Second or third to the last.

[Cthulhu]

Yay, I finally reached level 6. I think I'm still a ways off of a 1CC (I got to the final boss with no lives and no bombs )... but hey, at least I got to see the damn thing. I always end up wasting a bunch of bombs on level 4 and 5... for some reason I always end up trapped against the edge of the screen. Hrm. I'll see if I can fix that...

My high score is currently just over 130 kei... I'll post it when I get home and can get the exact number.

[Rob]

Improved level 1 multiplier high: 91m (and had like 1000 medals below my high during the stage, I think). Changed what I was doing on the boss (it's a secret).

[Rob]

^improved level 1 to 97.5m.

Continuing on the last thought in the high score thread (replays), I just bought a new laptop and capture card to replace the deceased. I'm definitely doing level 1 and 2. I'll try to get it working and record them tonight.

[Rob]

Got a lot of low quality replays to share. They are:

Level 1 - 45kei in regular mode, 91m multiplier.
Level 2 - 400kei in score attack.
Level 3 - 370kei in score attack, 28 seconds on boss.
Level 4 - 1330kei in score attack, 50 seconds on boss.
Level 5 - 1330kei in score attack, 33 seconds on boss.
Level 6 - score attack, 44 seconds on boss.

7-9mb apiece, except for 6 which is 1.6mb. I'll upload any that are wanted.

[MrMonkeyMan]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing all of them. You got space to upload them, or do you have to send them directly?

[Randorama]

Gimme some lovin'...

In the meanwhile, i can't play, will be back to shmups in a while

[Rob]

Uploaded to YSI, pm'd the link (since anyone can remove the file - if anyone else wants it ask here). It should work but I never know with that site. Anyways, level 1 comments:

-In the beginning I miss one of the orange ships on the ground. You have to destroy the ships above the first two turrets quickly to get another one.

-On the last reflect on the tank midboss I don't know what I was thinking but I usually collect the clump of medals right away.

-The part before/at the secret spring is crap. Destroyed the left side early and it's just overall sloppy.

-The reflect timing is a bit eh on the boss. The first reflect during the second phase you can see the bullets being shot out into nowhere. I think you have to destroy it a bit earlier and/or reflect a little earlier than that. The boss should be moving up while reflecting.