Shooting Game Tournament 2008 Theme Weeks and possible Rules

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:05 pm

maxi wrote:An Atari 2600 week also is a good idea. We can play River Raid or Laser Gates.

Or Beamrider. Hell of a shortlist.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:07 pm

maxi wrote:Yes, Metal Black is very good, but those bonnus stages make the score system bad.
An Atari 2600 week also is a good idea. We can play River Raid or Laser Gates.

Yes. Infinite looping on Laser Gates for the win!
Edit: Holy shit, Beamrider! Now this sounds like a good idea indeed.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:13 pm

moozooh wrote:Sounds like you're having a read-only attribute set to your Xed folder, and when the game tries to write a new file in there, Windows denies it, and the game crashes, not knowing what else to do.

Kicks out with a HSD error or something? Regarding this read-only thing, it's set on virtually every folder in XP, but the crashing thing only occurs on some programs. I'd like to know how to fix it.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:07 pm

I mean, you could try removing the read-only attribute from the folder if it's actually there. >_>
People reported this exact problem with Zillion Beatz, and after I told them to uncheck read-only, everything worked fine.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:09 pm

None of the files are read only. It really isn't that big of a deal if it doesn't work. I could e-mail the author and see if he responds.

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:31 pm

moozooh wrote:I mean, you could try removing the read-only attribute from the folder if it's actually there. >_>

It's one of these annoying ones that keep coming back.
Not really important enough to fix, but it does happen on some programs that I use (and especially since this doesn't happen to games like Touhou and PatriotDark, among others). Being able to make and share these replay files with others would have been nice though, but whatever.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:49 pm

I give Eco Fighters a solid

Post by **Shatterhand** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:52 pm

You know, I think all the crying and drama of the STGT08 comes mainly because people don't like to play shmups.

People maybe like the odd raizing or cave game, then they believe they are shmups fans and start posting here believing they are fans of the genre, when they obviously just like a couple of games of the genre.... Because it's amazing how some people say that every fucking game sucks.

Not saying that Eco-Fighters is good, but that Twiddle post just made me think about this.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:54 pm

Yes we have to like bad games to enjoy the genre that is completely logical

not that the haterade doesn't go overboard but "strategic voting" in games that turn out to be terrible for a week competition instead of sporadic play needs to go

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:57 pm

Twiddle wrote:not that the haterade doesn't go overboard but "strategic voting" in games that turn out to be terrible for a week competition instead of sporadic play needs to go

Says a member of a team that took great pride in inflicting pain and suffering on people via "strategic voting" last year. ^_-

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:02 pm

Not my decision~

though it was really, really funny to see the VP1 VP1 VP1 PLZ people fail so horribly

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:10 pm

Failure is not an option

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:23 pm

Twiddle wrote:Yes we have to like bad games to enjoy the genre that is completely logical

Bad is a matter of opinion sometimes, Twiddle. Even something like Master of Weapon has fans.

A good number of people seemed happy with Twin Bee Yahoo! and Butwider in past STGs, but I was quite the opposite. Neither struck me as particularly enjoyable (despite Butwider's similarities to the great Battle Garegga). Viper Phase 1 on the other hand, which I enjoyed thoroughly last year, was a bitchfest from start to finish. Even Star Force didn't have as much complaining if I recall.

Now, I've played Eco Fighters, and I'll agree that it's not a classic shmup from the halls of hori greatness. But, I still enjoyed it, and wouldn't mind seeing it come up as a voting option. Unless there's a really nasty milking problem, or it emulates like shit, I don't see it why it would be unfit for the contest.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:27 pm

Twinbee Yahhoo was absolutely horrible for upper level scoring. Darius Gaiden was dumb because of the last Z' boss leeching that if you screwed up (died), you lost a lot of points. I enjoyed the rest (especially Giga Wing, stupid how I think I played the most on the game I liked the least and the least on the game I liked the most).

I don't see the problem with Eco Fighters. 1943kai only takes about 28min to complete, I said 40/45 before but that's for 1943. 19xx takes about 28min to complete, Carrier Airwing about 40. Not sure about 1941 or Eco Fighters. Whatever happened to Chariot from Three Wonders?

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:34 pm

sikraiken wrote:Darius Gaiden was dumb because of the last Z' boss leeching that if you screwed up (died), you lost a lot of points.

HAHA! That 'Z' boss was a ball buster last year, wasn't it? No problems when playing just to play, but trying to get those big extra points by picking it apart at the very end of the game was nerve wracking at times. One tiny mistake, and you were SOL score-wise.

I still have nightmares about the "could have been" scores I lost on him

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:37 pm

Shatterhand wrote:People maybe like the odd raizing or cave game, then they believe they are shmups fans and start posting here believing they are fans of the genre, when they obviously just like a couple of games of the genre.... Because it's amazing how some people say that every fucking game sucks.

There's a difference between liking a game - it being decent to play - and thinking it is good to play for a score. TurboGrafx and Sega Genesis games? Might've been acceptable on Nick Arcade.

Icarus wrote: Says a member of a team that took great pride in inflicting pain and suffering on people via "strategic voting" last year. ^_-

I also suggested private voting. Point made.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:41 pm

The Coop wrote:
sikraiken wrote:Darius Gaiden was dumb because of the last Z' boss leeching that if you screwed up (died), you lost a lot of points.
HAHA! That 'Z' boss was a ball buster last year, wasn't it? No problems when playing just to play, but trying to get those big extra points by picking it apart at the very end of the game was nerve wracking at times. One tiny mistake, and you were SOL score-wise.

I still have nightmares about the "could have been" scores I lost on him

You played ABDGLQV route, I'm not sure how that final boss went.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:57 pm

Surely only liking Cave, Raizing and Psiko games is logical in that they represent the pinnacle of a genre? No wonder the genre is dead. I think a lot of people see this site as being a 'retro-games' site and tend to think something is 'good' because it is 'old'. Imagine burning all your CD's that were made in the last 20 years because they weren't 'classic'

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:08 pm

sikraiken wrote:
The Coop wrote:
sikraiken wrote:Darius Gaiden was dumb because of the last Z' boss leeching that if you screwed up (died), you lost a lot of points.
HAHA! That 'Z' boss was a ball buster last year, wasn't it? No problems when playing just to play, but trying to get those big extra points by picking it apart at the very end of the game was nerve wracking at times. One tiny mistake, and you were SOL score-wise.

I still have nightmares about the "could have been" scores I lost on him
You played ABDGLQV route, I'm not sure how that final boss went.

Oops. My bad. I got Risk Storage's and Curious Chandelier's stage letters mixed up.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:09 pm

mikwuyma wrote:I'd rather keep Caravan week for the middle because I think a week of short, 5-10 minute bursts of gaming would make fairly relaxing week.

The problem with having Cave, Raizing, and Psikyo weeks is what I would actually include in them. Also, a little developer variety wouldn't hurt :-/

...
Gunbird 2 (or 1 for a less strict scoring system?)
I'm having trouble thinking of a third game that isn't Strikers, Dragon Blaze, and is good, but I'm not the Psikyo fan you are Rob.

You're right about developer variety, but it's not like Psyvariar or Shikigami are available in MAME.

I was pushing it by slipping Psikyo in there. I'll revise my suggestion by moving Strikers 1999 to the no theme/mixed developer week. Simple medal chaining and technical bonuses make that the best option.

I'm not exactly sure how the Caravan week would work. How easy are those games to max out, since the modes are so short? Weren't they intended for one play in the competition they were made for? I don't think relaxing is important so much as the games being GOOD. Of course it would be best to avoid putting a Raizing and Cave game back to back. The Cave and Raizing lists look about right on, but I'd drop Mahou for Dimahoo or re-including Batrider. That was one of the games that really got fun after really knowing how to play it, so by the last day or two.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:14 pm

I don't think relaxing is important so much as the games being GOOD.

If we go with Icarus' list it shouldn't be an issue.

Does Desert War count as a caravan game?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:24 pm

Rob wrote:but I'd drop Mahou for Dimahoo

strategic voting

Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:27 pm

The Coop wrote:Oops. My bad. I got Risk Storage's and Curious Chandelier's stage letters mixed up.

And Great Thing. SiK took the Z' (Z-Dash) route.

Zebra Airforce wrote:If we go with Icarus' list it shouldn't be an issue.

So it's a choice between Feveron TT, Recca TT, Macross 2 and Game Tengoku TT then? While I share LGB's thoughts in wanting to see a Summer Carnival game in the tournament, locating them and emulating them might be a problem for some.

Any other TT games (besides the unemulated Pink Sweets and a number of doujin)? My memory is hazy at the moment.

Rob wrote:I was pushing it by slipping Psikyo in there. I'll revise my suggestion by moving Strikers 1999 to the no theme/mixed developer week. Simple medal chaining and technical bonuses make that the best option.

I'm not exactly sure how the Caravan week would work. How easy are those games to max out, since the modes are so short? Weren't they intended for one play in the competition they were made for? I don't think relaxing is important so much as the games being GOOD. Of course it would be best to avoid putting a Raizing and Cave game back to back. The Cave and Raizing lists look about right on, but I'd drop Mahou for Dimahoo or re-including Batrider. That was one of the games that really got fun after really knowing how to play it, so by the last day or two.

Agreed on Strikers 3.

RE Caravan Modes: it depends on the abundance of scoring opportunities and the way score is calculated. There are a number of older Caravan Modes that were pretty easy to max out once you got going, and I can see a number of players hitting the same level in a few days with these games, hence my reservations about putting them in.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:29 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:Does Desert War count as a caravan game?

Now this is true evil.

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:45 pm

Rob: Dimahoo's scoring system is really godawful for a week-long competition (and many people will say it's just godawful period). You don't want it for a scoring week unless if you want to challenge Viper Phase 1's bitching record.

Mahou's scoring is simple, but the second loop is difficult enough to create score variation (especially if you don't know what the trick to rank control is). Mahou's biggest weakness is how long each loop is. Each loop is around 30 minutes, IIRC.

Just out of curiosity, what makes Strikers 1999 better than the first two Strikers games? I'm not doubting you, I just don't know enough about Psikyo games. All I figured is that the precise medal chaining might turn some people off.

Caravan week: You raise a good point, but I don't think there is too much to worry about.

Macross 2 has a lot of scoring secrets, and bosses/big enemies have destructible parts for points. As far as I can tell, the game doesn't look incredibly easy to max out, but someone with more experience with the game should probably tell me more details.

The Game Paradise isn't easily maxable due to how short the collection period with maxed out items is.

Sikraiken says unless if you use Uo Poko, Dangun TT isn't easily maxable (we'll just ban Uo Poko).

No idea about Recca, assuming we even want to include it as a choice.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:47 pm

No one will approach near max scores with uo poko (it's not anywhere near easy), I just said that with the other ships it's not even possible to get near the max score the stage allows (you can't capture all possible disco men and destroy all enemies with the normal ships).

I just thought it'd be more interesting to see what people could get if they were only allowed to use the normal ships. It doesn't really matter.

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:51 pm

Oh oops Sikraiken, sorry for misconstruing your words like that. If it counts for anything, I'd rather see scores with the normal ships myself.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:53 pm

It's alright.

I think two games should be chosen during Caravan week.

mikwuyma · Post by **mikwuyma** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:57 pm

The problem with choosing two games for Caravan week is how you would calculate the scores afterwards?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:59 pm

mikwuyma wrote:Just out of curiosity, what makes Strikers 1999 better than the first two Strikers games? I'm not doubting you, I just don't know enough about Psikyo games. All I figured is that the precise medal chaining might turn some people off.

1999 has two main sources for bonus points (medals + boss technical bonuses) instead of just the gold bars. I also think the medals are more player friendly since they offer an additional visual cue - they spin and blink. I have a little more success with that. The gold bars in previous Strikers just blink. Medals also add a tiny bonus for chaining.