Lynch and Cronenberg

[KindGrind]

I came to love the first, and hate most of the second.

Interestingly, I think the last efforts of Cronenberg (Eastern Promises) are praiseworthy, though. And it seems Lynch's Inland Empire was probably his weakest work yet, next to Straight Story. Opinions, folks, but I like a good discussion about films.

Despite the cult status and intense following of Videodrome, I have no remorse calling it a piece of crap. And don't get me started on Crash.
So, who enjoys early Cronenberg and... why?

[szycag]

These two directors both require you to suspend your belief a bit to enjoy their films, but in two very different ways. I mean I can see comparing the two, I guess it's done quite a bit actually, but you shouldn't approach their films in the same way. Mulholland Drive is a really good later Lynch work, and Cronenberg's first film Shivers is one of my favorites.

[Limbrooke]

Crash sucks. Mulholland Drive is bizarre. A History of Violence is ok. Eraserhead leaves you with little to say.

I was interested in seeing Eastern Promises when it was in theatre, but never pulled the trigger.

[LSU]

Despite the cult status and intense following of Videodrome, I have no remorse calling it a piece of crap. And don't get me started on Crash.

Interesting that you'd single those two out, since they are most definitely my favourite Cronenberg movies.

While my favourite Lynch films are, without a doubt, Lost Highway and Mulholland Drive.

I think as a general rule of thumb, the more surreal and open to interpretation a film is, the more I will like it. As far as the earlier Cronenberg stuff goes, I love a good scare and I think he does that very well, Videodrome has a lovely sense of atmosphere and plays up on some fairly dark sides of human nature to good effect. I think his early films strike a fine balance between being good atmospheric horror and also giving you something to think about. Thats' really what defines a classic to me - not merely being something you enjoy by passively watching, but something that engages the brain, something that has a purpose, something to say to people. To (loosely) quote Videodrome itself: '...what makes it dangerous, is that is has a philosophy.'

But there's obviously loads more to discuss here...

[KindGrind]

@Szycag: I'm not trying to compare both directors, just discuss their work.

@Limbrooke: You should look into it. Eastern Promises is quite entertaining, if not at all revolutionary.

@LSU: I knew that by picking these I'd have some kind of reaction from someone Cronenberg is indeed quite a scary feller. I think that once put into motion and in pictures, his ideas lose punch because they're too bizarre. How can I put it, the idea of a guy transforming into fly is basically a good one, but the execution (special fx) are not on par with the idea. Most of the problems I had with Videodrome deal with the same thing. I am peacefully watching, and then the guy kind of dies and starts growing lots of "penises". Needless to say, I totally lose it. Same thing happens in many Cronenberg films: ExistenZ, Naked Lunch (great book), Videodrome, etc.

Apart from the baby in Eraserhead, Lynch rarely used sketchy special effects - in my so humble opinion, much to his advantage. The weirdness/scariness comes from the characters themselves and the things they say (Frank in Blue Velvet comes to mind). Was there ever a scarier villain?

Random thoughts anyway

[professor ganson]

Two of my favorite directors!

Crash sucks.

Crash is easily my favorite Cronenberg. The most recent two are relatively accessible, and have a broad appeal. Crash is James Spader and David Cronenberg at their creative best, and is not for everyone.

[it290]

Heh -- funny, I love Cronenberg, easily more than Lynch (whom I also greatly admire), and I also found Inland Empire to easily be Lynch's best film in years and years (probably since Blue Velvet, which is an entirely different kind of film).

edit -- one of my favorite things about Cronenberg is the fact that he managed to make movies of an extremely high artistic calibur under commercial constraints: see Scanners. Dead Ringers is probably my favorite film of his, though.

[Thunder Force]

Cronenberg has real talent, although he experiments so much that I doubt anyone would be able to like every single one of his films, they are all pretty much works of art, for better or for worse. My personal favorites are probably Videodrome and its spiritual sequel Existenz, and of course his classic remake of The Fly.

[Acid King]

I thought Eastern Promises was great. I recently rewatched Videodrome and liked it a lot more than the first time through. I also didn't like Crash much. While I think he did a good job showing how emotionally dead and disconnected all the characters are, some of the changes from the book I didn't like. I think he made Vaughn a little too sedate. I'll have to watch it again since I haven't seen it in awhile.

[charlie chong]

i love videodrome.. if you suffer from weird dreams yourself then it's not so weird.. last time i watched it i fell asleep and had one of those paralysis attacks which made it even scarier and weird than usual

[CMoon]

I think it is really hard to say Inland Empire sucks; I mean, it isn't even clear what the film is about. I'm generally not into the weird-for-weird's sake anymore, but Inland Empire is like a dense, atonal 20th century symphony that can only be taken at face value for whatever it is. Every person walking away from it is probably going to have gotten something different out of it.

I am still just getting into Cronenberg, but Videodrome and Scanners are classic.

[KindGrind]

Good point about Inland Empire.

I wish I could grasp more what it means, but unlike Mulholland Dr., Lost Highway or even Eraserhead, I get little to no clue as to what's happening. When I try to "experience" it rather than see it as a movie with plot, I find it a very long exercise. The first hour or so was fascinating, but then what I took from granted started drifting away and I got totally lost. I watched it only once, and it being a 3 hours movie make it tougher for a rewatch. I'm not saying it sucks, because I don't get it at all. I can see touches of genius throughout, but the ensemble is so dense it's scary.

I get Videodrome, though, and Crash, too. And I don't like them. Scanners and Dead Ringers are very good, though.

[Shocky]

Two of the greatest (still active) directors!

Here are my scores (1 to 5 star scale) for their movies that I've seen:

LYNCH:

Mulholland Dr. (2001) *****
Lost Highway (1997) ****
Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me (1992) ****
Wild at Heart (1990) ****
Blue Velvet (1986) *****
Dune (1984) ***** (too bad most ppl don't realize the genius of this film)
The Elephant Man (1980) ***½
Eraserhead (1977) ***½


CRONENBERG:

Eastern Promises (2007) ****½
Spider (2002) **½
eXistenZ (1999) ****
Crash (1996/I) ***½
M. Butterfly (1993) *½
Naked Lunch (1991) ***½
Dead Ringers (1988) ***
The Fly (1986) ****
The Dead Zone (1983) ****
Videodrome (1983) ****½
Scanners (1981) ****
The Brood (1979) ****
Rabid (1977) ***½
Shivers (1975) ***½


Based on this, I'd say they keep churning out masterpieces from decade to decade and in the future too (unless David moves from movie directing to some other activities, I saw him last year and he was still obsessed with Transcendental Meditation and seemed to have major plans in that area).

I admire the way these guys manage to add surreal twists and characters to their stories and still retain believability. They kind of slowly suck the viewer into the heart of madness, in their own ways: Cronenberg focuses on the horror and diseases of the mind and body, Lynch focuses more on spiritual experiences and the dark secrets of the mind. Another similar auteur who explores these themes is Shinya Tsukamoto, although his latest movie Nightmare Detective (Akumu Tantei) was a bit on the conventional side.

[it290]

Based on this, I'd say they keep churning out masterpieces from decade to decade and in the future too (unless David moves from movie directing to some other activities, I saw him last year and he was still obsessed with Transcendental Meditation and seemed to have major plans in that area).

Off topic, did you happen to see the video of the speech he gave in Germany where he had a guy with him who kept saying 'we must make Germany invincible!'? Weird shit, as surreal in its way as one of Lynch's films.

[Shocky]

Off topic, did you happen to see the video of the speech he gave in Germany where he had a guy with him who kept saying 'we must make Germany invincible!'? Weird shit, as surreal in its way as one of Lynch's films.

I didn't see such a video, but I was present when Lynch was here in Helsinki giving a similar speech. He had a lot to say, and not just about how ideas for movies can be "fished" from ones own subconscious by certain methods and meditation, but also concrete actions like that a center of about 200 trained persons doing meditation and yoga flying etc. vibrates enough harmony to guarantee peace and prosperity for a country of this size. And to achieve that we'd need to found an Invincible Finland Academy or something and of course pay a lot of money for TM courses =). Someone's brainwashing someone, but I'm not sure who. Maybe those suspicious physics doctors and scientists Lynch brought with him. Hearing this from the "horse's mouth" was indeed surreal and felt like being in a Lynch film.

[DC906270]

cronenberg for me, for giving us :

the fly
the fly II
scanners
the brood
rabid

lynch is okay, alittle too strange for me most of the time, though i did like twin peaks back in the day. inland empire

[PC Engine Fan X!]

The film of Crash was interesting with the basic concept of folks getting off on vehicles crashing or being involved in one. The scene where the chick with her leg braces gets her deep leg scars gently rubbed all over is regarding as a slow and intense foreplay to the eventual sex scene that results -- this is only something that Cronenberg masterfully could pull off... ^_~

In eXistence, the same thing with licking the port on one's back slowly...

Lynch is pretty trippy as well with his Mulloland Drive flick... ^_~

I recall that when Dune came out on the big screen back in 1984, movie theatres handed out a single page glossary printed on both sides explaining some of the characters, concepts, and events that take place to let the casual moviegoer learn a bit more about the Dune universe if he or she hadn't read the books beforehand... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[LSU]

Another similar auteur who explores these themes is Shinya Tsukamoto, although his latest movie Nightmare Detective (Akumu Tantei) was a bit on the conventional side.

I absolutely agree with you there - I almost mentioned him in my first post. Tetsuo and Vital are probably my favourites of his. And, although it only stars Tsukamoto and isn't actually directed by him, Marebito remains one of my all-time favourite movies and aside from being Japanese doesn't feel that different from a Lynch or Cronenberg movie. (I often wonder how much influence Tsukamoto had over that production, beyond acting in it ... certainly feels like a lot to me.)

[it290]

Ah, Tsukamoto. Highly underappreciated director; most people are only familiar with Tetsuo. Bullet Ballet is my personal favorite by him; I also think Tokyo Fist is very good.

I didn't see such a video, but I was present when Lynch was here in Helsinki giving a similar speech. He had a lot to say, and not just about how ideas for movies can be "fished" from ones own subconscious by certain methods and meditation, but also concrete actions like that a center of about 200 trained persons doing meditation and yoga flying etc. vibrates enough harmony to guarantee peace and prosperity for a country of this size. And to achieve that we'd need to found an Invincible Finland Academy or something and of course pay a lot of money for TM courses =). Someone's brainwashing someone, but I'm not sure who. Maybe those suspicious physics doctors and scientists Lynch brought with him. Hearing this from the "horse's mouth" was indeed surreal and felt like being in a Lynch film.

You should definitely check out the German video; it's on youtube. The audience went apeshit (understandably). Saying 'we need an invincible Germany' is quite a bit different from 'we need an invincible Finland', lol.

[KindGrind]

Ah, Tsukamoto. Highly underappreciated director; most people are only familiar with Tetsuo.

This is me right there. I'll look into him.

You guys familiar with Teshigahara? One of my favourite japanese directors, so many great movies! Meditative and bizarre...

[Shocky]

You should definitely check out the German video; it's on youtube. The audience went apeshit (understandably). Saying 'we need an invincible Germany' is quite a bit different from 'we need an invincible Finland', lol.

I watched it and see what you mean "Well, that went pretty well." (YouTube comment).

The problem seems to be that David & co. use that same "script" for every country, and initially chose an unfortunate term/mantra ("Invincible x") which is ok in most countries but evidently not in Germany. Another thing is that the German audience seems to be awfully quick to pull the Hitler card, which shows that they might indeed need some meditation. David is a very charismatic speaker, and had he said the same thing I don't think the audience would have reacted that way. But this "raja" guy was just too much, it's hard enough to take such clowns seriously because of their looks, so they would have to be smart and verbally talented to compensate, as opposed to this walking, talking pr catastrophe.

Too bad they didn't bring such a dumbass guru with a McDonald's Happy meal hat to Helsinki, our event went without any amusing heckler action or yelling.