MGS4

[Skykid]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8027/dscn0504wr9.jpg

My results. Awesome, awesome game.

very nice, no kills, no alerts, no continues. a truth stealth pro.

Thanks although let's stop at no kills and no alerts - I didn't continue but I reloaded my save quite a bit before mastering some of the sections.

Nice bit of honesty there Turrican

Started playing MGS4 last night. So far I'm unimpressed - it seems far less hassle to treat the game like an FPS and blast your way out, but I like the fact you have that option this time around. The controls aren't the leap I'd hoped for - things are still quite static and in some cases (like picking up bodies and dropping them just to fleece them for items) are archaic. Blame Sony's pad for that one, it was bound to happen.

The open plan landscapes and lack of decent maps and radars mean that the stealth option is proving cumbersome and tedious, constantly being cut off by enemies with no clear direction of where to go. Perhaps I don't have the patience, perhaps its an outdated system in new clothes - either way, I'll be giving it more of my time before I pass any final judgement, as I heard most people felt initially it was dissapointing but gets better.

Dealing with Hideo's overbolown ego is the toughest part - his name appears about six times in the opening credits sequence, which is full with clunkly and un-engaging dialogue. He's not really a great director, but I appreciate him as an eccentric gaming nutcase who makes games just for himself and the fan base that has come to love his quirky, often embarrasing, style.

I mean the soldier shitting in the drum can? Wtf? If he's apeing Hollywood in failing to take any subject matter seriously, he's doing a darn fine job.

[bay]

Started playing MGS4 last night. So far I'm unimpressed - it seems far less hassle to treat the game like an FPS and blast your way out, but I like the fact you have that option this time around. The controls aren't the leap I'd hoped for - things are still quite static and in some cases (like picking up bodies and dropping them just to fleece them for items) are archaic. Blame Sony's pad for that one, it was bound to happen.

seeing that it's a game of stealth, and not a game of FPS blasting through the masses, then perhaps the game just plainly isn't for you.

the dropping guys for items is funny and annoying in a way, it's easier to hold up soliders and pat them down, a search of a corpse would be appropriate, but not as *quirky* *funny*. it's like hiding in a box or barrel, the thought of cartoon tactics in the art of war and espionage actually working is where the charm lies.

The open plan landscapes and lack of decent maps and radars mean that the stealth option is proving cumbersome and tedious, constantly being cut off by enemies with no clear direction of where to go.

i disagree with this completely, the level design and landscapes are superb. despite this being a game, there is also a sense of realism. there is no case that you will just end up on a battlefield or area and know exactly where to go, where enemies are, what to expect. expecting everything makes a very cumbersome and tedious life (and game)

of course, there is a radar with the solid eye usable in the game when you need it. along with scanner plug, which is pretty cool and something that if you've played MGO at all know what it does.

Dealing with Hideo's overbolown ego is the toughest part - his name appears about six times in the opening credits sequence, which is full with clunkly and un-engaging dialogue.

i guess you just don't get jokes, or are familiar with ongoing ones in the series. i don't see this as a matter of ego at all.

He's not really a great director, but I appreciate him as an eccentric gaming nutcase who makes games just for himself and the fan base that has come to love his quirky, often embarrasing, style.

he's actually a very dedicated director, extremely engrossed in making his video games an experience for the end user. i whole heartedly disagree with your summation.

if you have a chance to watch the making of documentaries for mgs4, you may be surprised.

I mean the soldier shitting in the drum can? Wtf? If he's apeing Hollywood in failing to take any subject matter seriously, he's doing a darn fine job.

if you didn't laugh at it, then its the obvious choice of toliet humor that you don't approve of. if you're familiar at all with the characters, you'll know there is a recurring theme for this character. this game really is a throwback to all other mgs.

i doubt kojima is looking to impress hollywood, despite the fact that he's worked with many people, including some in hollywood or have done production for it.

it's a videogame, and i think it's definately one to play.

as for me, i've taken time off, currently just after crying wolf.

[Skykid]

I agree that the tone and style of MGS may not be my cup of tea anymore, but at the same time, I adored the original PS1 game - it was well tempered and cleverly designed, and it worked around the restrictions of the hardware to form an incredible balanced game. That too had comical elements, subtle enough to amuse and delight fans of Hideo's previous work (I should also add that I consider Snatcher and Policenauts to be terrific.)

I also agree Hideo is an accomplished director - of course he is, he's created a massive commercial success in MGS. But a great director? I don't think so. His inability to self critique his work and edit where necessary is beginning to grate. The more powerful the hardware platform, the more he runs riot. Cutscenes are rarely engaging, the dialogue often poorly thought out. I don't think his abilities would translate well on the big screen, if his current work is any reflection.

I do appreciate his in-jokes and farcical humour that proliferates the more recent MGS games are well liked by the community, so its probably just me. Personally, it feels like his ego is running wild, in that where the tone of the original PS1 MGS was just right, his constant madcap humour in MGS4 detracts from what could be a very accomplished future wargame.

Please, do understand this is just my opinion - some will be with me, many against. I don't intend to change anyones mind - gaming is a passionate subject. But I just call flaws where I feel I see them, and while some will be comfortable having the Solid Eye in one of their item stocks, and keep switching to it to have some kind of radar, I can't help but find the whole thing very outdated indeed. MGS4 could flourish with a little less of the stuffy aspects in the controls - it could use a good trim and a polish.

Still, I'm going to persevere. IGN's ridiculous 10 out of 10 score warrants at least a playthrough to see whether or not things pick up.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I hope you just didn't think it sucked even before starting the game. Attitude makes a big difference in how someone perceives a game.

[Skykid]

I hope you just didn't think it sucked even before starting the game. Attitude makes a big difference in how someone perceives a game.

I honestly thought games were more black and white than that: their quality should shine through no matter what. Simply, if you like the genre, then it shouldn't be a struggle to see its quality.

As it happens I go into every MGS with high hopes, but the PS2 games were a terrible dissapointment.

[bay]

I also agree Hideo is an accomplished director - of course he is, he's created a massive commercial success in MGS. But a great director? I don't think so. His inability to self critique his work and edit where necessary is beginning to grate. The more powerful the hardware platform, the more he runs riot.

i'll just say to watch the mgs4 making of stuff, it's an eye-opener.

Cutscenes are rarely engaging, the dialogue often poorly thought out. I don't think his abilities would translate well on the big screen, if his current work is any reflection.

the transferability of the dialogue can be debated, tho most likely it will need changing since the target audience is changing. there are things about the way the story is told and the dialogue is presented that makes sense for a game, but would be rewritten or omitted completely in a screenplay.

again, in the documentary you are shown the process of the dialogue and actors, it's quite interesting.

.. his constant madcap humour in MGS4 detracts from what could be a very accomplished future wargame.

maybe it's just me, but i dont see any of the metal gears as anything like a wargame, and claiming any futuristic tenses would be a bit of a stretch, as the story and it's elements have been closely tied into the past and current events to make things plausible (while at the same time making things over the top to keep a "comic book" feel.) the game is a refreshing change from the constant cookie cutter 3d games coming out in the "next-gen" world.

Please, do understand this is just my opinion

indeed it is, i believe we all have opinions, and this is a discussion board.. so we're discussing

... while some will be comfortable having the Solid Eye in one of their item stocks, and keep switching to it to have some kind of radar, I can't help but find the whole thing very outdated indeed

i think the idea of having to equip an item to use it isn't a hard thing to handle, i do agree that not being able to use the solid eye while say, holding a syringe, is a bit of a limitation. it could be the controls and use of the items (and keeping usage somewhat constant across all items) that has produced this limitation.

MGS4 could flourish with a little less of the stuffy aspects in the controls - it could use a good trim and a polish.

expand on this a bit, what controls are you uncomfortable with?

[Skykid]

Hey Bay, healthy debate it is!

I'm all for watching the MGS4 documentary when I have time - but do you think its necessary for players to watch this to get more from the game? Backstory always makes things more interesting, but the game should be able to connect with people regardless, right?

I can't really relate to the concept of poorer dialogue being more suited to a game than a screenplay (unless its an intentionally poor game!) - Hideo has taken enough of a leaf out of cinema to be able to write up to scratch scripts. For most, it'll probably go unnoticed, but while I'm not part of the Mensa foundation, some of the stuff they utter makes me feel as though my intelligence is being abused.

The suggestion of 'futuristic wargame' was on a whim, I didn't really mean to paint it as such. What I mean I'd prefer, is for the locations, scenario's and action to keep me engaged with a certain level of realism. I'm all up for Japanese quirkyness in games, MGS no exception - I just get the impression Hideo is pushing the envelope a bit now, trying too hard to get us to notice, and its destroying the immersion a little.

MGS4 could flourish with a little less of the stuffy aspects in the controls - it could use a good trim and a polish.

expand on this a bit, what controls are you uncomfortable with?

Well this is the most important topic for me, and I could go on a while (but I'll try not to!)
Firstly, every time I look down at the 'PS3' pad in my hands I can hardly believe it. I mean for fucks sake, it's a fifteen year old pad. I don't care if its got a sensor feature or if its wireless: Sony's R&D department have done such a disservice to this generation of gaming, I sometimes think the console deserves to be in its current position of last.

New games are built around new hardware - but importantly, and as Nintendo have always proven (not just with the Wii) built around a new controller.

There is a serious lacking of dynamic in PS3 games because they stick rigidly to a control setup that's getting boring. And Sony's analog sticks were always rubbish.

I knew as soon as I saw the console go to launch in this state, that MGS4 would be facing an uphill struggle. Can they use the hardware to really open the game up, change the movement of the protaganist so he's a more agile and fluid character and remove some of the static elements that bogged down the PS2 games? Not with that pad.
I'll admit, they've tried though. I don't blame Hideo and his team, I really blame Sony. The console has the graphical goods, but no matter how good the catalogue of games, there will always be a hint of 'last gen' about them when playing with a fifteen year old pad.

So MGS4 has adopted some FPS style ideas, and allowed the scenery to be navigated to a larger extent in a similar fashion to Resi 4 - but the entire setup still lacks an intuitive element. The stop start of the weapons selection, the putting down of this item to use that item, the pausing to look at maps, the accessing of items to see radars that should really be on the HUD are all elements that needed redressing, at least to a greater degree.

MGS4 appears to have delivered exactly what hardened fans wanted: more of the same.
For people like me, who wanted MGS4 to really break boundaries and usher in the new console generation with a bang, I feel a little let down by the lack of innovation. The game I hoped and dreamed of doesn't exist, and as such, I applaud games like the aforementioned Resi 4 for being the staple of its time. I don't think MGS4, for me at least, can ever have a similar standing.

[Shalashaska]

Did any of you guys check out the MGS Database that was released today on the PSN? If not, download it now! It's pretty awesome.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I would but I'm sure they're spoilerrific.

[Specineff]

Did any of you guys check out the MGS Database that was released today on the PSN? If not, download it now! It's pretty awesome.

Is this PS3-only, or will it work with my PSP?

[Shalashaska]

I would but I'm sure they're spoilerrific.

It's basically a gigantic, interactive encyclopedia that covers Metal Gear 1 and 2, MGS 1, 2, 3, 4 and also Portable Ops. If you haven't played through any of those then yes, there are a ton of spoilers. However, it checks for a clear save for MGS 4 and if one isn't found then anything pertaining to MGS 4 is blacked out. So if you're only worried about spoiling MGS 4 then worry not.

Is this PS3-only, or will it work with my PSP?

It's only for PS3.

[ReKleSS]

MGS4 stuff is locked unless you have a complete MGS4 save. That said, I stopped reading once I found an un-redacted explanation of la-li-lu-le-lo. There's some good stuff in there.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

I would but I'm sure they're spoilerrific.

It's basically a gigantic, interactive encyclopedia that covers Metal Gear 1 and 2, MGS 1, 2, 3, 4 and also Portable Ops. If you haven't played through any of those then yes, there are a ton of spoilers. However, it checks for a clear save for MGS 4 and if one isn't found then anything pertaining to MGS 4 is blacked out. So if you're only worried about spoiling MGS 4 then worry not.

Is this PS3-only, or will it work with my PSP?

It's only for PS3.

Great! Zero chance of any spoilers now .

[Strider77]

let me ask you this skykid...

if you don't think kojima can direct well... what game do you think does do it well/better.

I'll admit, they've tried though. I don't blame Hideo and his team, I really blame Sony. The console has the graphical goods, but no matter how good the catalogue of games, there will always be a hint of 'last gen' about them when playing with a fifteen year old pad.

so the wii is the only console that you think is next gen... b/c the 360 controller isn't any different other than cosmetics. I own all three and can use all three controllers fine..... well both the 360 and PS3 have crap d-pads for old school stuff but that's kinda a different debate and all.

I found MGS4's controls MUCH improved with dual stick use and very intuitive.

[Skykid]

let me ask you this skykid...

if you don't think kojima can direct well... what game do you think does do it well/better.

I'll admit, they've tried though. I don't blame Hideo and his team, I really blame Sony. The console has the graphical goods, but no matter how good the catalogue of games, there will always be a hint of 'last gen' about them when playing with a fifteen year old pad.

so the wii is the only console that you think is next gen... b/c the 360 controller isn't any different other than cosmetics. I own all three and can use all three controllers fine..... well both the 360 and PS3 have crap d-pads for old school stuff but that's kinda a different debate and all.

I found MGS4's controls MUCH improved with dual stick use and very intuitive.

Hey Strider,

I don't want to get into this too deep, but I also have all three consoles right here. It's certainly not that the PS3 pad isn't functional, but it is outdated. I don't think the Wii is next gen simply because of it's interface, but yes, it has ushered in a different type of gaming built around its pad, simple as it may be.
The problem with the PS3 pad is that in essence it's a PS1 pad, and that has me crying in my tea. I think that this entire generation is a bit of a cop out really, it's just last gen gaming in new clothes - but the 360 pad is very good indeed (as long as the d-pad is relegated to simple options switching). It's hardly more of an advance over the original xbox pad than the Saturn 6 button was over the Megadrive, but it is different in all the right places, making fancier looking games very intuitive to control. Most 360 games take good advantages of the pad, the pressure sensitive triggers, twin analogues and shoulder buttons - just about all the elements there are.

But the PS3 pad can't hope to push too far beyond a PS1 experience, even if the game looks ten times better.

[Zebra Airforce]

Most PS2 games take good advantages of the pad, the pressure sensitive triggers, twin analogues and shoulder buttons - just about all the elements there are.

[Strider77]

To each his own.... I never expected next gen to be nothing more than prettier than the last. Honestly the last "revelation" I've experienced was the addition of 3D/polygons in the 32 bit years.

The Wii's controller is VERY inventive and totally functional when a game is made well..... but the system is lacking juice under the hood (I can deal with that) and MOST important games. So far I haven't played anything that feels amazingly innovative on the wii other than the idea it's controller brings. The games that are truely good like mario galaxy, metroid prime 3 ect are awsome games and use the controller really well but they are just as much guilty of being the same old as the 360 or PS3.

Games just like last gen with way better graphics is all I expected and really need. I don't think innovation stims from power or anything though for the most part.

Resident Evil 4 is one of my fav last gen games and it was a great overhaul but wasn't anything innovative. Alot bitched that it didn't evolve enough b/c the lack of movement for your character when aiming. I was totally fine with it personally and thought that kept it resident evil. I find MGS4 to be just as evolved as Resident Evil 4.

The controls are deffinately far more intuitive with the top triggers for over the shoulder and fire triggers, to me. Being able to use the left stick for movement and right stick for aiming is SUCH and improvement. Now if you chose to do so you can really hold your own in a fire fight by strafing and being able to dodge in any direction. The camo is way WAY more stream lined to...

The visuals are spectacular.... they are truly "next gen" quality. It sounds like you just don't like metal gear games anymore. B/c the gameplay is way better than one and has evolved over the games course. It's no more long winded than one was but this time it's actually done with cinematics over LONG codec sessions with just text and two pictures.

I love MGS1 also but it's nothing compared to 4.... Hideo's games are ALWAYS heavy on cinematics. Hell his other games are nothing but digital comics (snatcher/policenauts).

To each his own but all I ever expected from MGS4 or this generation was better visuals and a bump in the "quantity" of things present in the game. Be it HUGE landscapes or small legions of opponents in a game.

To me.... MGS4 ownz. It gave me what I wanted and expected. Story wise... I'm rarely as, well I guess the only way to put it is emotionally invested with whats going on. How far have you gotten in the game?

I still wanna know though.... if you don't think kojima can direct well... what game do you think does do it well/better?

[Specineff]

Snatcher.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Snatcher.

For Specineff,

Perfer either the original PC Engine version of Snatcher or the latter one for the Mega Drive CD/Sega CD platforms?

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[szycag]

For anyone who knows the series in and out, why isn't the Game Boy Color "Metal Gear: Ghost Babel" considered canonical? Is it supposed to be an alternate universe, since in this game Mei Ling seems to meet Snake for the first time? It's an awesome game that's kind of like the missing link between the MSX games and MGS, but it's not considered canon simply because Hideo Kojima only supervised it and didn't write it? The Black Chamber villains were so cool too.

[Turrican]

Yeah it's an alternate future where Solid Snake has gone through the two MSX games but the Shadow Moses incident never happened.

It's the best portable Metal Gear - so it has little importance the fact that it's not in the canon storyline.

However, it was referenced in both MGS2 and MGS4.

[Skykid]

Snatcher.

Agreed.

Strider in answer to your question, MGS4 has started to show its limitations already. By this I mean that the technology has advanced to a degree where the cutscenes in Ninja Gaiden 2 for example, have just as much value as Hideo's MGS4 material.

Everything is on a kind of par, and when you base the directorial quality of MGS4 against really good games with story elements like NG2 or Bioshock, MGS no longer has the arresting qualities it did when other games couldn't develop cutscenes to match it.

It's interesting you think MGS4 is massively advanced over MGS1 (PSX), I really don't see the leap. Constrained as the PSX game was by its hardware, it did just as much to shape a story, and didn't attempt to burst its boundaries.

There are plenty of games with cutscenes that are well directed these days - Hideo has been caught up and caught out by games like Resi 4, Bioshock and others, and his work has started to suffer.

That said, I'm about 5 hours into MGS (I'm working all week) and enjoyed it a lot last night. It's already better than MGS2 and 3, which is good to know.
This weekend will be the test - I'll do my best to tear through it and see how I feel.

[Strider77]

to each his own... but when i sit down and play MGS4 I see a VAST improvement control and game wise. I mean when I sit down and play Twin Snakes I feel a vast improvement b/c of the MGS2 contols (not talking music and cutscene changes). MGS1 control wise is pretty archaic now.

NG2 does have awsome cutsenes.... but I'm not looking for games to out do each other. I enjoyed resident evil 4, bioshock and NG2 ALOT. All I can say is MGS4 was everything I wanted. But MGS4 still trumps those games to me with character and a moral.

OK... so snatcher, but I'm looking for something Hideo has not done. that's just saying Hideo is an awsome director and MGS4 is not his best.

How far are you into MGS4 anyway?

[it290]

Funny, I was actually just playing MGS, and just out of curiousity loaded up Twin Snakes for comparison purposes. I don't know if it's just the Gamecube controller, but MGS felt far more fluid to control than Twin Snakes. I think using digital control is superior in this case, since you can choose which direction to move in more easily. If you think about it, the sneaking portions of MGS are kind of like a slowed-down Pac-Man.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dear Abby:

Is it time for me to stop hating MGS? It dropped my baby on its head about six years ago and then made him sound like Godzilla. I haven't been able to laugh since then, either.

On Pins and Needles,
Meandering Michigander

p.s. I also think I could do worse than think about getting a PS3...someday...actually, that's another letter

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Just finished MGS2 and I was planning to write a long paragraph about it but I'll just keep it short. WTF!?

******SPOILER ALERT******

The story changes well story so often I can't even describe what the whole thing was all about. Last thing I remember is the Patriots trying to control people or some shit like that and Raiden mooching with Rose, the enemy. Someone care to enlighten me about the story without spoiling anything from MGS3 and MGS4? Sure there are better ways to conduct a glorified psychology experiment.

And what's wrong with Kojima, ending the game the exact moment I thought I'd have the opportunity to play with my gadgets and slice a few hundred soldiers with my katana.

Highlights!
How many bosses were there, like 4?
Why was half the game a codec screen?
Harharhar your mind is playing tricks on you.
Hang in there buddy!!!!! Massive cliff!!!!
I'm kinda disappointed.


******SPOILER ALERT******

[Ed Oscuro]

The story changes well story

The sequel to Cave Story?

Anyway, from watching somebody play the Substance version of the game, yes, yes, yes, seems to match what I thought.

[Turrican]

It's interesting you think MGS4 is massively advanced over MGS1 (PSX), I really don't see the leap. Constrained as the PSX game was by its hardware, it did just as much to shape a story, and didn't attempt to burst its boundaries.

There are plenty of games with cutscenes that are well directed these days - Hideo has been caught up and caught out by games like Resi 4, Bioshock and others, and his work has started to suffer.

Ah ah! Look, Resident Evil 4 cutscenes might have reached Hideo on a technological level - but that's as far as they go. When you talk about character development, plot, and quality of dialogues, RE4 has more in common with Zero Wing's intro than any MG, really.

And Snatcher was a massive mess so Kojima had to add an entire final act of explanations ~ sure, this problem hampers MGS4 too. I still think MGS3 is the best for the masses and MGS2 the best overall.

[Ed Oscuro]

[...] quality of dialogues, RE4 has more in common with Zero Wing's intro than any MG, really.

Turrican, is you high?

From RE1 to RE4 there was a huge improvement in quality of dialogue, and "terrorism...such a popular word these days" is one of the classic one-liners of video gaming.

MGS2, released two years before RE4, seems to be moving backwards for dialogue: "Laugh, and grow fat." If MGS4 is doing substantially better, it's playing catch-up with the other series.

Whine about me comparing one series' shining moment with another's modern nadir, but MGS2 was filled with horrible, shitty dialogue. It's only ever quoted when it tries to be postmodern and of course it's hard to fuck that up completely.

[Turrican]

No, I'm no high, and I keep my stance. Here's a brief comparison between RE4 and MGS4. Just an example:

RE4:
Who is this cloaked guy who sells me stuff? Why does he talk like an idiot? Why he's dressed like a Soul Calibur leftover? He appears everywhere, the whole stuff makes no sense. Is he supposed to be funny? Oh, well, let's remember - it's just a videogame. Like in Pac-Man, I shouldn't expect any story. Except the nonsense popart execution was terribly better in Pac-Man. Final feelings: *Sigh, why I am sitting here with this junk when I could go play Pac-Man?*

MGS4:
Whoa, who's this guy who's selling me stuff? The voice acting is incredibly intriguing - he seems to know a lot of things and does wizard tricks too! "The Patriots are America, their war economy" whoa, he has such great lines - and the monkey sidekick makes for great jokes too. Drebin, what an interesting character! Why didn't Homer or Shakespeare invent him before? Now that I think to it, how could I live all these years without Drebin? Now I want to dye my hair in white and drink soda all the time. Final feelings: *It's incredible, he's just a weapon dealer and yet he's one of the most accomplished characters eve seen in a game*

And that's roughly the difference between the two games.