Teaching human evolution

[CMoon]

Oh yeah, I know you want to discuss more of this!

Well, actually, I'm not looking to stir up anything here, just wanted to share a story. So, as a science teacher, evolution is not only a national standard, but so is the evolution of human beings. I've always made it clear to my students that I don't care what they accept and that IMO evolution and God go hand and hand pretty nicely (can't wait for Rando to attack me on that statement.) This particular class had been very good about going through the evolutionary material understanding they had to know about it, whether they accepted it or not. Then, BAM! We hit human evolution and it is like hitting a wall. We are watching a film about it and a third of them refuse to pay any attention, staring at the wall rather than the film. Even refusing to do their assignments over the matter.

Anyway, part of me feels that if so many people are going to 'freak out' over the idea of evolution, I am not so anxious to teach it. On the other hand, all of those people who do not accept human evolution also have no explanation for the evidence--and the evidence has to be explained! It is also absurd to shrink away from something that is both central to some of the basic human questions (how did we get here?) and also something so widely accepted by the scientific community.

In a sense, I feel as though I've offended a bunch of flat-earthers in my class for suggesting it is round. It is a weird feeling, having such a large percentage of your kids basically unwilling to consider what the facts seem to be telling us.

So yeah, not only felt like sharing, but with an international community, I wondered how others reacted to the idea of human evolution (never felt like I was teaching about 'taboo topics' before...)

[Zebra Airforce]

You're going to have a mandatory test on the content of the movie, right? If they don't want to learn then they can fail their classes.

[CMoon]

You're going to have a mandatory test on the content of the movie, right? If they don't want to learn then they can fail their classes.

We are very near the end of school year, so there was only a worksheet associated with the film. They have in general been pretty good for the whole school year, which is part of the reason why this was a bit of a shock. I still have yet to teach this unit to two other classes which I suspect will greatly enjoy the topic. But yes, in general, choosing to shut-down because you don't like a topic will result in loss of grades.

[Turrican]

yeah, I don't see any blatant contradiction in the idea of evolution and the idea of an original creator... Of course a "god" the way Spinoza conceived it.

[Super Laydock]

Very appropriate avatar.

[Lordstar]

I just dont get how anyone in there right mind could see with all the facts pointing in favor of evolution that it could be anything else. Im a Christian I dont practice and I do not believe in god. But when I did I had no problem believing in evolution.

Is it me or is America the only place which does not consider evolution fact and is some what of a sinkhole for ignorance? any there any other places which do not believe in Evolution?

[Ceph]

Im a Christian I dont practice and I do not believe in god.

Sorry mate, but someone who doesn't practice or believe in God is certainly not a Christian.

[CMoon]

Is it me or is America the only place which does not consider evolution fact and is some what of a sinkhole for ignorance? any there any other places which do not believe in Evolution?

Here's an interesting article about that: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... 29204.html

And again to make clear--It isn't that I want to start another crazy thread about what people believe here; but it is really something to teach something that is widely accepted and have students looking at you like you are some sort of heretic.

[Turrican]

And again to make clear--It isn't that I want to start another crazy thread about what people believe here; but it is really something to teach something that is widely accepted and have students looking at you like you are some sort of heretic.

I'm sorry but it will be probably impossible to keep the two things separated. You see, the attack at the theories of evolution is an ideological crusade. Faith doesn't need any proof so it's just going to be a muscular fight until science and free thought will lose some of the terrain they gained in the last few centuries.

The fact that these theories are "widely accepted" means even less to their detractors than any proof that support them. Widely accepted isn't a good element for both causes - the scientist wouldn't accept any kind of superstitions (ie miracles) just because they are "accepted" - likewise, the pious sees temptation and devil all out there, so if something is "widely accepted" it will only reinforce his opinion that he's one of the few elected that really sees things for they are and will be saved.

[Lordstar]

Im a Christian I dont practice and I do not believe in god.

Sorry mate, but someone who doesn't practice or believe in God is certainly not a Christian.

ive been christened, i cant unChristine myself. I not not up on where i stand

Dont really care either.

The fact that these theories are "widely accepted" means even less to their detractors than any proof that support them. Widely accepted isn't a good element for both causes - the scientist wouldn't accept any kind of superstitions (ie miracles) just because they are "accepted" - likewise, the pious sees temptation and devil all out there, so if something is "widely accepted" it will only reinforce his opinion that he's one of the few elected that really sees things for they are and will be saved.

cant we all just get along?

[Turrican]

Oh, I get along with everyone

[Lordstar]

Oh, I get along with everyone

damn! I thought i was going to get some group hugging action then.

[BulletMagnet]

There are two things your students need to get through their heads - the first is that, regardless of what they believe, they're in a (public, I assume?) school, and schools, quite rightly, are only able to concern themselves with teaching "secular" material. Religious matters, which are generally highly personal matters of tradition and/or faith, are not the sorts of things which ought to be taught alongside subjects which can be approached in a more, well, scientific manner. Second, and perhaps more to the point, being informed about a topic and taking stock in it are two different things - just because you know the basics about evolutionary theory doesn't mean that you've abandoned a different belief which you prefer/find more convincing. Just because you don't number yourself among the followers of something is not an excuse to be willfully ignorant of it - in like manner, in an English/Literature class, if you're assigned to read a book and learn its contents, it doesn't really matter whether or not you like the book, the author, the themes, etc. - you hold your nose and read/learn it, or else fail the unit. The fact that you read the book and passed a test on it doesn't mean that you've now "betrayed your principles" or "like it" now, just that you're no longer ignorant of it, which, if anything, might re-affirm your previous beliefs (I'm no evolutionary expert, but I am aware of some rather notable holes in the theory as it exists at present...to be fair, many books do tend to gloss over those points).

I was raised religious myself, but never had any issues with evolution being covered in classes I took - I learned the stuff they wanted me to know, answered the questions on the tests, and moved on, knowing that becoming more informed about something isn't the same as throwing my undying support behind it. To be honest, I'm half-tempted to say that your students are just as de-motivated by it being the end of the year as they are by their beliefs/upbringing.

[Lordstar]

also how old are your students?
Kids revel in an opportunity to throw anything back in your face. your not asking like bullet magnet said your not asking them to give up what they belive in your just asking them to learn someone other than themselves point of view.

if they still say no, fuck em just fail them on that section and give them a lower mark. you cant get blood out of a stone.

this reminds me about A girl I know. She works in an office and one of the other co workers is allowed to carry an knive around with her due to religious reasons and telling her she cant carry it around would violate her human rights. my friend also says she does not feel safe knowing she is allowed to carry a potential lethal weapon around, and she has the rights to feel safe.

So right now the knife girl is suspended on full pay. Until they can decide what to do. its pretty crazy stuff

[Mortificator]

Sikhism, right? I can see how it might be unnerving at first, but is it realistic to think that someone just going to start stabbing people? I think it's more of a concern that a mild-mannered yet put-upon employee will snap and show up with a gun. It seems like people in charge of these things value the illusion of safety more than real safety.

[Lordstar]

but everyone should be allowed to bring weapons to work then as its only "fair"

[system11]

So right now the knife girl is suspended on full pay. Until they can decide what to do. its pretty crazy stuff

It should be as simple as saying 'leave it at home or find a new job'. No court in the land would go against a company who took that stance.

[lgb]

So right now the knife girl is suspended on full pay. Until they can decide what to do. its pretty crazy stuff

It should be as simple as saying 'leave it at home or find a new job'. No court in the land would go against a company who took that stance.

That sounds about right.
--------
It seems that your students just can't or don't want to (it's nearly the same thing) handle the truth. It sounds like those that have been brought up in such a religious formula, without any outside exposure, that they can't say no, no questions asked. (Remember, I'm only basing this off of the information given. There's probably more factors involved.)

Those people scare me.

[trivial]

I should feel sorry for CMoon. But my empathy's exhausted. You're in fucking Providence, I grew up (and continue to live) in southern Ohio. How somebody gets it into their head that American kids are worth teaching, I'm ill-equipped to guess at by now. I should ask my old friend from Seekonk, I suppose. That will happen only when the faeries sing.

I enjoyed P-anthro in college. The idea that no kid of mine will ever meet my prof saddens me, but I know what most other kids' parents are and won't be having any.

[Specineff]

I thought it was ok for the Sikh to carry a pendant in the shape of a dagger, in lieu of an actual one.

[trivial]

Are you thinking of the Yemeni?

[Super Laydock]

I should add that my employer actually provides me with a (kinda large knife). Mandatory.

Still... in an office space: well NO.
Not more than in any public place anyway.

Employers should ban ALL religious outings on the work floor. It's PRIVATE, so don't annoy your colleagues with this and if not liking working conditions: get another job.

Probably another example of human inbreeding halting evolution. (yay somewhat ontopic)

[I'm Alec]

A few years back, I went out to San Francisco to support my roommate's band at a battle of the bands event. All of the bands were local CA groups except for one reggae band which came all the way from Jamaica (only to lose to my roommate lol, excellent band btw). After the show, we were talking to one of the Jamaican dudes outside and he brought up the topic of evolution, and said to us something to this extent:

"You see, I and I believe in evolution, because down in a Jamaica, lots of monkey looking mother fucker. Ha ha ha ha."

Thats about the only recollection of any conversation I've ever had about evolution. He was a pretty funny cat. I think he was the drummer, and a pretty good one at that.

[320x240]

Faith doesn't need any proof so it's just going to be a muscular fight until science and free thought will lose some of the terrain they gained in the last few centuries.

As you imply, science played a great part in loosening the stronghold religious doctrine had over free thought. Today however, that same science is as much a danger to free thought as religious doctrine ever was. What we experience today is an over-zealousness from two sides - both from the religious side and from the scientific side. From the battles between creationsists and scientists over evolution it is quite clear that this is not a battle over truth but rather over having people accept their truth - and that's not the same thing.

[Randorama]

Edit: bah, apologies, whatever.

[CMoon]

Well my point I was trying to make gets back to how I guess any accepted fact could be made controversial if people simply don't want to believe in it. I even got my favorite question - 'if evolution is true, why haven't all the monkeys evolved into humans yet?' Well of course, we might ask why all the wolves haven't turned into dogs yet. And since there is an implied sense of superiority, we might ask why haven't all the dogs turned into one particularly superior breed of dog by now.

Or, perhaps the redneck might ask, why haven't all the Africans evolved into Americans by now. Perhaps we should be happy that for the most part evolutionary theory and natural history have been singled out. Imagine if they decided to go after the laws of thermodynamics or Newton's laws of motion, or something else. Actually I've heard the speed of light has been under attack lately, we'll see how far that goes.

That said, it is rather exciting in some ways to teach something that is 'controversial', but when the controversy is all make believe, and students actually stop listening altogether--there's no real fun in that.

[CMoon]

As you imply, science played a great part in loosening the stronghold religious doctrine had over free thought. Today however, that same science is as much a danger to free thought as religious doctrine ever was. What we experience today is an over-zealousness from two sides - both from the religious side and from the scientific side. From the battles between creationsists and scientists over evolution it is quite clear that this is not a battle over truth but rather over having people accept their truth - and that's not the same thing.

No. This sort of argument really needs both additional explanation and justification with evidence. This is the sort of conspiracy that Ben Stein tried to make fly (but fell like a stone) in his Expelled movie. I don't buy it for a second.

Edit: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlaCq3dKvvI
This is the 'faith cake' video that while going off in some different directions at the end does a very good job in the first half contrasting science and religion and why what 320x240 describes is a sort of logic fallacy.

[320x240]

No. This sort of argument really needs both additional explanation and justification with evidence. This is the sort of conspiracy that Ben Stein tried to make fly (but fell like a stone) in his Expelled movie. I don't buy it for a second.

When was the last time you experienced a scientist that was actually well versed in the philosophy of science? What is the role of popular science in the formation of truths in society today? Who speaks with the most authority, the preacher in his pulpit or the scientist behind his desk? These are some of the questions that needs to be asked. Science (especially natural science) has during the course of a few centuries aquired such authority that it has become an enemy to free thought. Is there something in the nature of science itself that can prevent it from becoming what Christianity developed into during the middle-ages? Do science have some sort of inbuilt self-correctioning measure?

[CMoon]

When was the last time you experienced a scientist that was actually well versed in the philosophy of science?

Always.

What is the role of popular science in the formation of truths in society today? Who speaks with the most authority, the preacher in his pulpit or the scientist behind his desk?

You make it sound like some sort of pro-wrestling match. Both roles serve very different functions. Science touches virtually all aspects of our society--certainly without it, we'd still be living as people did in the dark ages. At the same time, religion make up much of the foundation of our culture. Why do you see this as some sort of yelling match between two groups that serve very different roles?

Science (especially natural science) has during the course of a few centuries aquired such authority that it has become an enemy to free thought.

What the heck are you talking about? So asking questions about the world around us is an enemy to free thought? Do you know what an enemy to free thought is? Not thinking. Any form of study which encourages inquiry into the world around us and ASKS US TO ASK QUESTIONS can't possibly be an enemy to free thought.

Beyond the logical error, you still need to explain your claim and give evidence. Why is learning about biology an enemy toward free thought?

Do science have some sort of inbuilt self-correctioning measure?

Yes, they do. Do you need me to run through how science goes about its checks and balances?

[JoshF]

Do science have some sort of inbuilt self-correctioning measure?

Yes. I believe it's called the scientific method.