320x240 wrote:Does games such as Last Hope fail to observe something that is, and should be, fundamental for all such games, thereby becoming failed experiments, or do they just fill a niché within a niché?
Personally I think that Last Hope is just filling a nisché in a nisché. Last Hope is nothing that a game should have as an idol or something. It's just the way it is. Still some people try telling the game bad per se which is impossible to do.
stanski wrote:1. In response to your point about "games being easy for the first half then hard as hell for the second," could you please tell me why 90% of the genre does not suffer from this? I'm pretty sure that the majority of games that are made for this genre do not have this problem, and that they do offer a gradual improvement in difficulty. Believe me, even really good shooting game players can die in stage 1 or 2 the first time they play a new game from cave, raizing, g.rev, etc.
This indeedly applies to about 90% of the games of the whole genre. And I don't like this. Many other people don't like this either. Just a personal preference. I think a game should make clear from beginning what it is about.
However, I don't understand why some people here feel offended by my postings. I'm not offending anyone, I'm just stating facts/personal preferences/views.
2. The fact that you say that "last hope becomes simple once you understand it" should show you that the game design is poor. A game that is really hard to master and simple once you do master it is poor design. Read David Sirlin's advice about this (making super street fighter 2 turbo more accessible to the beginner by making commands easier in the remixed version coming out this summer, while at the same time balancing it for those that play the game professionally). There should be a reward associated with mastering the gameplay, you can see this with nearly every game in the genre. For example, in Battle Garegga, a very hard game indeed, mastering the gameplay leads to a better score, getting a better score leads to more lives and a better chance for survival, but then you get to a point where you need to take huge risks in order to get the greatest score and to complete the game.
You got me completely wrong with this. Simple doesn't mean easy. Just do-able. the more time you put into Last Hope, the more it comes do-able, less frustating and more rewarding.
3. Stop saying "you just don't understand." As someone who has 1CC'd numerous games, can loop many toaplan games countless times, can counter stop galaga multiple times, has numerous speedrun records to my credit, and plays ssbm at a tournament level (and used to play other fighting games at a tournament level), I feel that I am a person that can judge the difference between cheap and difficult. I love being challenged by games, and even play games that I know I will never be able to beat. After beating stage 2 of Last Hope, I did not feel like stage 3 offered anything different, and there was no real reason to play on. There was nothing "hard" about it, there were just cheap gameplay tactics that destroyed the player to start and became much easier when you started to memorize what to do. This is not fun at all, and not a good game design! The reason people don't play cheap and hard NES games is that there is no reason to beat them at all. Why do you think games like bayou billy and battletoads aren't made anymore?
I have to dissappoint you on this. It doesn't matter how much games you can 1cc. You can still, maybe just accidentally, don't understand simple things. When you don't understand, you must know this and the reason, to understand. It's no offense.
We are trying to help you make a game that will appeal not to the masses, but to those that are in this community, i.e. hardcore shmup players. When you put your heart into something and it turns out bad, as a developer you have to look and say "ok, what can I do different next time?" Instead, you sit here and defend your game and reputation when Last Hope was clearly a failure. Every game will be loved by someone, so using a select few as an example is a terrible excuse (for example, I speedran Dark Castle, notoriously one of the worst games for the sega genesis, and actually enjoyed playing the game like that. The developer could go "look, stanski enjoyed the game, what is wrong with the rest of you?" But the game would clearly still be terrible and a commercial failure).
You does'nt seem to follow this thread. That's not a good start for an disucssion.
I don't know how mich I must tell that I welcome constructive critism about DUX but still some people don't get it. Strangely, those poeple who don't get it dislike Last Hope to the same time. And most of them even sound rude.
You're also confused a bit but I'm helping you out. This thread is about DUX and critism is welcome as stated several times - you kinda missed that somehow. But now, Last Hope is debatet here in this thread as well. Two completly different games, besides being the the same sub-genre, with different approaches. Last Hope is a finished game and it's managable to bee good at this game to make fun out of it. Many players doing it. Still player's who disliking the game have the opportunity, to give it a try to find the reason for disliking it. Maybe you even will have some fun during that.
Every game will be loved by someone, so using a select few as an example is a terrible excuse (for example, I speedran Dark Castle, notoriously one of the worst games for the sega genesis, and actually enjoyed playing the game like that. The developer could go "look, stanski enjoyed the game, what is wrong with the rest of you?"
All you're saying is that the whole shmup genre is bad. Shmups just don't belong into the world of mainstream anymore. Everbody plays Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4. So when some who plays Halo 3 says that shmups are bad and only about a select few thoundand instead of 6 million enjoying it, then you will belive that?
There's a also different between Dark Castle and Last Hope. The edge between enjoying Last Hope or not is very small. You only have to change your attitude and playing it tacticly. Which is what I mean with simple. The game is simple to understand, yet hard to master.
But the game would clearly still be terrible and a commercial failure).
You're not up to date on this. Last Hope is an commercial success. LH DC did/does better then we ever thought it will do. And it is still doing well.
How can you tell if Last Hope is complete failure without beating it? Don't you see the problem? You're talking about something you just don't know. How can you do this? Games are not like soft drinks where you only have to sip on it and you know how the whole bottle is tasting.
I guess my conclusion is this: stop being so stubborn about your game, the only reason we bash your game is because you are still defending it when the majority clearly thinks it was a poor game.
The majority didn't play the game long enough to know this. The average playtime is about 10min. How long did you play it? Last Hope is an alternative, so the majority doesn't belong into this disussion anyhow.
Also, I'm not defending Last Hope at all. As a good game is always definding itself. I'm just stating facts so poeple can understand what the're doing wrong with the game. Your whole posting is completely negative toned without any sense. You sound pissed off but I don't know why. Maybe Last Hope kicked your ass too much, and youwere thinking you would do good at shmups to find out that's not the case.
I doubt this message will get through to you, and you will sit here and act like I am bashing you, your games, whatever, but I make this post in the hopes that it might influence your future outlook on game development even in the slightest bit. Making balanced games that gradually increase in difficulty, reward the person who spends an enormous amount of time on the game, has great depth, innovative graphics and music, and are FUN is what makes a great game in this genre!
An well articulated message will always get through to me. If my word will helping you is completly upon on you. However, I aldready stated several time tht DUX will be different to Last Hope. Do you know why? Because Last Hope is bad? No. It's because it's time for a different style. Yes, it's about style and taste and so on.
On a side note, what are innovative graphics and music?
