I can haz cheezburger?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 06, 2008 7:24 pm

If you knew the first thing about chickens you would understand that they continually lay eggs regardless of fertilization. Unfertilized eggs will be laid regardless, and will either rot or be taken away by other animals. I fail to see how eating them can be construed in any way to be "unethical".

So it's more akin to eating a period? It's still terminating potential life by unnaturally disallowing it from fertilization/incubation, and unlike with humans there's really no possible benefit from that other than YUM YUM. You think our chickens don't resent us for this? Well I've got news, America's CHICKENS...are coming HOME...to roost...

Daedalus · Post by **Daedalus** » Tue May 06, 2008 7:33 pm

JoshF wrote:So it's more akin to eating a period? It's still terminating potential life by unnaturally disallowing it from fertilization/incubation, and unlike with humans there's really no possible benefit from that other than YUM YUM. You think our chickens don't resent us for this? Well I've got news, America's CHICKENS...are coming HOME...to roost...

Congratulations, JoshF. You've reached a level of idiocy that few people can ever hope to achieve. Your argument is basically: Leaving eggs unfertilized is murder. If we can take a human analogy to this insanity, you would also argue that every time a woman has her period she's committing infanticide.

Now, many of our chickens lay an egg every day during the summer. If all of those eggs were fertilized, the chickens would rapidly die from starvation or overcrowding. Now that -would- be killing them.

Chickens don't resent us for harvesting eggs, and life on the farm is a hell of a lot different than the Foghorn Leghorn cartoons make it out to be. I get real sick of you city kids trying to act like you have any idea what you're talking about.

Nuke · Post by **Nuke** » Tue May 06, 2008 7:43 pm

@Daedalus

Spoiler

JoshF is being sarcastic

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 06, 2008 8:14 pm

If we can take a human analogy to this insanity, you would also argue that every time a woman has her period she's committing infanticide.

I'm committing war crimes in my sweatpants as we speak. So are we picking the eggs the chickens don't like or are we forcing the termination?

Now, many of our chickens lay an egg every day during the summer. If all of those eggs were fertilized, the chickens would rapidly die from starvation or overcrowding. Now that -would- be killing them.

It's killing either way if the reason they're dying is from being put into an unnatural environment. You can't cause both situations and say one is more ethical because it's the lesser of the two evils you created. Surprise: natural and unnatural death are different because there is a choice involved in one of them. Also nice egg productivity I'm sure you don't intervene to increase it.

I get real sick of you city kids trying to act like you have any idea what you're talking about.

Lol I can see cows and corn outside of my window but if it makes you feel any better the farms and woods are making way for housing development.

Lordstar · Post by **Lordstar** » Tue May 06, 2008 8:42 pm

JoshF wrote: farms and woods are making way for housing development.

I know i can sleep at night knowing the filthy farm animals are not taking up precious low priced housing land.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:31 pm

In nature, one living being kills and eats the other, it's the natural order and part of life.

I think the dilemma we are facing here is that humans consider themselves to be outside of nature and that they are projecting their set of morals onto it, especially onto animals, because they are closer related to humans than plants.

This reminds me of how man shaped "god" in his image.

Lordstar · Post by **Lordstar** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:40 pm

Ceph wrote:In nature, one living being kills and eats the other, it's the natural order and part of life.

I think the dilemma we are facing here is that humans consider themselves to be outside of nature and that they are projecting their set of morals onto it, especially onto animals, because they are closer related to humans than plants.

This reminds me of how man shaped "god" in his image.

yeeeeah but why does jesus look like a hippie from London when in reality his parents were more than likley of middle eastern origins?

no dont answer that. I will tell you, its becuase god is from London too

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:46 pm

Well I've got news, America's CHICKENS...are coming HOME...to roost...

I hereby publicly distance myself from JoshF, even though he baptised my children

Though it was his second post that made me finally do this

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:59 pm

humans consider themselves to be outside of nature

Outside of natural selection, for the most part.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:29 pm

I teach a first-year seminar called

Animal Minds and Human Morals: Topics in Animal Ethics

Sadly, the topic of the course is not one I'm terribly excited about. I am interested in thinking about the cognitive abilities of animals and I'm interested in very general questions about the foundations of morality. I'm less interested in specific questions like: Is it morally permissible to eat animals? My colleagues are much more worried about it. Half of my department is either vegan or vegetarian.

doodude · Post by **doodude** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:33 pm

Im originally from Louisiana & we didnt eat much beef except for the obligatory Sunday roast.
We mostly ate chicken & seafood.

My wifes family are fro Missouri & she was raised on a 500 acre cattle ranch thus she ate beef for breakfast, lunch & dinner.

I like a good burger every now & then but I just dont enjoy beef enough to have it very often.

Remember the guy in Forrest Gump who liked shrimp? Thats me with chicken.
I like chicken fried, baked, boiled, bar b qued, in a salad, on a sammich, in my rice, on pasta, in a gumbo, buffalo wings, chicken strips, as an appetizer, or an entre, I like chicken fried chicken with pepper gravy & mashed taters, as chicken tots, in a............

Emperor Fossil · Post by **Emperor Fossil** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:38 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:First hit on google when I searched for "carnivorous animal intestine":
http://owen.curezone.com/nutrition/anim ... inbad.html
I'm not saying it's the gospel, or even right, but I quit eating meat b/c it made me feel awful.

I don't want to weigh in on the debate, as although I'm not a vegetarian, I like the idea and tend to admire those who manage to cut meat out of their diet. In fact, I tried it once and only lasted about 6 months. By the end of that time I found myself looking at pigeons and imagining what they'd look like deep fried. It was almost like being in a cartoon. I'd look at my cat and just see a succulent turkey roast. (I'm kinda hungry right now, actually).

But anyway... that site would have to be one of the worst sites you link to in support of vegetarianism. If the entries in the sidebar weren't warning enough (Healing, Spirituality, Affirmations...), claims like this are LOLtastic:

"Final thought: meat-eaters are also ingesting all of the negative energy that accumulated in the animal during its short, horrific life; all of the fear, anger, hatred, dread, and anxiety that were stored in the cells of the animal. When you eat that "pink" flesh, you take in not only the toxic chemicals, but all that negative energy. It's not a very pleasant thought."

No, it's not a pleasant thought. It's a silly thought.

doodude · Post by **doodude** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:39 pm

professor ganson wrote:I teach a first-year seminar called

Animal Minds and Human Morals: Topics in Animal Ethics

I am interested in thinking about the cognitive abilities of animals

I admit when a friend asked me how I could eat anything with a face that it gave me pause & that concept is still lurking around my mind threatening to change my eating habits forever.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Tue May 06, 2008 10:39 pm

professor ganson wrote:Is it morally permissible to eat animals?

The correct answer is: Morals do not apply.

professor ganson wrote:My colleagues are much more worried about it. Half of my department is either vegan or vegetarian.

Haha, that's pretty sad. Not a whole lot of great minds in that department, eh? Well, at least they have you, the shmupping professor

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:18 pm

(unless you've somehow gained internet access from your mud hut.)

Classic.

Peanut Butter & Jelly

Even more classic.

Pray tell, exactly how do humans get bird flu by EATING the meat?

By getting near a chicken?

Ceph is correct in that a vegetarian diet is not well suited to humans.

No he isn't... and neither are you.

you better come up with something better than personal anecdotes and thinly veiled attacks on America.

how about personal experience? Does that not work?

@Ceph:

I don't see what nationality has to do with anything.

The moderation comment. I can only speak of stereotypes for Germany. I'm from Texas though, I can assure you that people eating meat in Texas are not practicing moderation.

I understand that eating meat may make you feel bad for some reason (sounds like some sort of enzymatical problem) and that you feel better without; but do you think that just because some people can't drink milk, drinking milk is bad for everyone?

When did I ever say that eating meat was bad, or that nobody should eat meat? You and just about everyone here should know I never tell anyone how to live. We even feed my son meat (only chicken at this point) if must know. I simply stated that not eating meat is not bad. People want to talk about how you cannot be healthy if you stick to a vegetarian diet, to which I say poppy cock and balls. Look at Andre 3000. The guy is in the top 10 percentile of in shapeness, and is a vegan.

And the part about nonsense is that you're saying "vegetarianism is nonsense". What if people don't like the taste? People choose their diet based on different things.

I think the dilemma we are facing here is that humans consider themselves to be outside of nature and that they are projecting their set of morals onto it,

The moral dilemma for both is the matter in which the animals are raised and slaughtered. If it were a non-issue, why would there be laws on cruelty to animals.

hat site would have to be one of the worst sites you link to in support of vegetarianism.

Like I said, it was the first one. The fact I quoted is a physical one as well... anyone can feel free to say otherwise. I mean seriously... does anyone here have good enough metabolism that they can eat a healthy portion of meat and not take forever to shit it out?

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:28 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:does anyone here have good enough metabolism that they can eat a healthy portion of meat and not take forever to shit it out?

hi

man, you should see what we eat at xmas in scandenavia

anyways: i take the hindu point of view

Daedalus · Post by **Daedalus** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:33 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
Pray tell, exactly how do humans get bird flu by EATING the meat?
By getting near a chicken?

It is possible to contract a bird flu by working in close quarters with infected animals. This is why you should always deal with livestock in a sanitary and healthy way. However, the end recipient of the meat has little to worry about.

Ceph is correct in that a vegetarian diet is not well suited to humans.
No he isn't... and neither are you.

You can keep saying that, but it won't make it true. Vegetarian diets are often meticulously calculated and loaded with nutritional supplements to fill the large holes left by their choice of foods. Humans who eat animal products have a much easier time managing healthy diets. If you want to dispute this, you had better come up with a better response than "Nuh-uh!"

you better come up with something better than personal anecdotes and thinly veiled attacks on America.
how about personal experience? Does that not work?

That would be "personal anecdotes" kiddo. Like Ceph already covered, digestion works differently from person to person. Furthermore, judging healthiness by "the way you feel" is a horridly unscientific practice.

The moral dilemma for both is the matter in which the animals are raised and slaughtered. If it were a non-issue, why would there be laws on cruelty to animals.

This is weak and you know it. If people care about slaughterhouse conditions so much, why don't they advocate stronger anti-cruelty laws? Probably because if there were no more slaughterhouse youtube vids, vegetarians would lose most of their ammo in propagating their ignorant ideology.

I mean seriously... does anyone here have good enough metabolism that they can eat a healthy portion of meat and not take forever to shit it out?

I eat a reasonable amount of meat and I don't have any problems with my digestion. If you eat a lot of meat, yeah, your body probably won't like it. If you eat a ton of beans and broccoli, you'll be feeling it too. Meat is good in moderation, just like any other food.

Emperor Fossil · Post by **Emperor Fossil** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:47 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
Emperor Fossil wrote:that site would have to be one of the worst sites you link to in support of vegetarianism.
Like I said, it was the first one. The fact I quoted is a physical one as well... anyone can feel free to say otherwise. I mean seriously... does anyone here have good enough metabolism that they can eat a healthy portion of meat and not take forever to shit it out?

Bear in mind I wasn't trying to take a shot at you, or the rest of your post for that matter. I was taking a shot at that site and its author.

As for eating meat and subsequent pooing ability -- I eat meat pretty much every day, and I poo every morning, regular as clockwork. (More details available upon request!) I presume it's because I also eat a lot of fruit, veg, and wholegrain cereals and muesli. Also drink a lot of water every day.

However I did notice that when I worked a night shift some years ago and ended up eating a lot of McDonalds, everything started to grind to a halt, probably largely due to the lack of fibre.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:03 am

You can keep saying that, but it won't make it true. Vegetarian diets are often meticulously calculated and loaded with nutritional supplements to fill the large holes left by their choice of foods. Humans who eat animal products have a much easier time managing healthy diets. If you want to dispute this, you had better come up with a better response than "Nuh-uh!"

Nuh-uh.

Furthermore, judging healthiness by "the way you feel" is a horridly unscientific practice.

Hmm... other than scheduled check up, do you ever go to the doctor if you don't feel sick? You are more in tune with your body than anyone... and any doctor. Besides, I'm basing my status of health on data from my physicals which were mandatory to get health insurance.

This is weak and you know it.

No I don't.

vegetarians would lose most of their ammo in propagating their ignorant ideology.

You do realize that the propaganda spewing vegetarians is a small sample of the population, right?

Meat is good in moderation, just like any other food.

I never said it was bad "in general". Clearly it's not going to kill anyone. My point is it's not unhealthy to cut it out.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:11 am

Ceph wrote:
professor ganson wrote:
professor ganson wrote:My colleagues are much more worried about it. Half of my department is either vegan or vegetarian.
Haha, that's pretty sad. Not a whole lot of great minds in that department, eh? Well, at least they have you, the shmupping professor

Philosophers are one of the few groups where vegetarianism is really common. I've thought hard about the arguments on both sides and still have no settled views on the matter.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:28 am

professor ganson wrote: am interested in thinking about the cognitive abilities of animals and I'm interested in very general questions about the foundations of morality. I'm less interested in specific questions like: Is it morally permissible to eat animals?

Funnily enough neither am I. I'd prefer to take a 100-level course on the history of the United States rather than a 100-level course on the Civil War, you know? But I like to make my thoughts on some things public in order to have them scrutinized. It keeps oneself from being the universal authority on everything.

Haha, that's pretty sad. Not a whole lot of great minds in that department, eh? Well, at least they have you, the shmupping professor

You should write a book on how religion is a lie, or something most people will think is outrageous. I foresee a future for you in talk radio or becoming a controversial public figure

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:40 am

Everyone (carnivore, vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or otherwise) should all adopt the stance of the red-head in this comic, and stop arguing =)

http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070803

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:16 am

(I love this album. Still eat meat daily though. I guess I'm a murderer)

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:48 am

JoshF wrote:Well I've got news, America's CHICKENS...are coming HOME...to roost...

Nuke wrote:@Daedalus
Spoiler
JoshF is being sarcastic

Damn, I wish I could tell

________________________________

Hey guys, once I asked somebody if they were a vegetarian and they said yes and I asked them if it was wrong to eat animals and they said yes and I broke out in a sweat and told them it was alright to stop there

OH
MY
GOODNESS

WHAT FROTHING IDEOLOGUES!!!

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:58 am

At the risk of suffering the wrath of the mods by mentioning the T-word I'll just say they contain both veggies and meat and can be pretty healthy if made with the right ingredients.

I am perfectly happy and suffer no constant digestion problems by eating both meat and veggies in moderation. I enjoy my greasy burger now and then, but I also try to accompany my salads and soups with chicken, fish or shrimp. I can't see myself going fully vegetarian and not have my body crave a chicken sandwich, hot-dog or chimichanga at all.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:59 am

JoshF wrote:I'm committing war crimes in my sweatpants as we speak.

Josh likes to cover his penis with a cloth and pour water over it to simulate drowning.

I like Brussel's Sprouts

They are located next to Brussel's Bristle Spout.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed May 07, 2008 2:10 am

szycag wrote:

(I love this album. Still eat meat daily though. I guess I'm a murderer)

Wasn't too big on this album. Not sure why.
I'm partial to Strangeways... pretty good considering they were all typically on the outs by the time it was one.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Wed May 07, 2008 3:03 am

today I had chicken-beef-mayo combo sandwich. It was delicious.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed May 07, 2008 3:28 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:today I had chicken-beef-mayo combo sandwich. It was delicious.

congratulations

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:44 am

By the way, if it's the lack of application of human morals in the treatment of animals that makes you want to abstain from eating meat, then you shouldn't be eating fish either. After all, fish dies of suffocation after being caught; not a nice death by human standards.

However, cruelty is a concept alien to nature. Except for humans, no other living beings on this planet have morals. When one plant gows in front of the other, taking away its sunlight and killing it, it doesn't have ethical problems doing that.
It is good that we have developed certain morals for ourselves, because when correctly applied to us they allow us to peacefully coexist.

I do agree that we shouldn't cause unnecessary pain to those animals we use as food; but if we want to eat them, we have to kill them eventually.

Behaving morally doesn't mean that you should feel sorry for the rock you blow up in order to build a street. It doesn't mean you should feel sorry for the tree you use to build your chair. It doesn't mean you should feel guilty about killing the chicken you eat. Behaving morally means making sure that you don't blow up all rocks to build roads, use up all trees to build chairs and kill all chickens to eat them.

Specineff wrote:[Tacos] contain both veggies and meat and can be pretty healthy if made with the right ingredients.

Yes exactly. Not meat is the problem, fat is.