The God idea. Argue with this.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:51 am

jp wrote:How long before atheists start going from door to door handing out tracts?

"Did you know that nobody has a plan for your life?"

couldn't stop laughing. somebody should print some of these up.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:56 am

it's inspirational for those who think, ie make their own plans for life

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:56 am

I see it as this...

If you want to believe in God, then by all means do so. If the idea of believing in God makes no sense to you, then don't believe in God. Hell, believe turnips can see future lotto numbers if it makes you happy. But to paraphrase what George Carlin said years ago, "Keep thy religion, or the lack of it, to thyself". People really, honestly, couldn't care less about what folks other than themselves do or don't believe regarding religion, which makes me wonder what the big fascination is with trying to prove someone wrong. Do you get a gold star at the end of the day or something? A coupon to use at your local store for a free chocolate milk?

Anyway, for anyone reading this, pray or don't pray. Believe or don't believe. Make your choice, and change it as you see fit over time. Take it to heart. But if you want to show how "enlightened" you are, try not resorting to the "I'm right, you're wrong, here's why" ridiculousness that religion seems to bring out of people.

Edits: Spelling and clean up.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:01 am

lol morals are just customs that's why we don't condemn differences as automatically deficient (youtube aspieists excluded)

Ex-Cyber · Post by **Ex-Cyber** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:15 am

jpj wrote:what does atheism teach people about how to be a good person

Atheism doesn't actually teach anything in particular. Atheists can draw their moral sense from social norms, law, their parents, their own reasoning, philosophy (Kant seems popular), or even directly from religious traditions (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount).

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:23 am

ie it's external. or to put it another way: is it fair then to assume atheists are more likely to grow up uncharitable, law-breaking and sociopathic?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:31 am

condemning differences as automatically deficient

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:56 am

that's not an answer to the question. unless you want to elaborate, rather than copy and paste.

superlaydock: as an opposite to this whole thread: can you explain to me where everything in the universe came from and how it came into being, if there is no god?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:05 am

There's no need to elaborate. I'm wondering what you think about the same moral coming from different sources or motivations. Does one have better results than the other?

as an opposite to this whole thread: can you explain to me where everything in the universe came from and how it came into being, if there is no god?

Truth isn't a mad lib.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:15 am

jpj wrote:ie it's external. or to put it another way: is it fair then to assume atheists are more likely to grow up uncharitable, law-breaking and sociopathic?

Not at all, in all honesty. An explanation can be found in 'Moral Minds' by Marc Hauser. Never mind a number of studies on the topic (references found in 'the God delusion', for instance), but 'atheists' (whatever this random label should mean) seem to do just fine without some ready-made precepts of morality.

The true question is: does one respect rules because of 'scarecrows' or because of some serious 'thinking' about it? Note that I am being pretty neutral about the whole idea of 'belief', individual or organized. The other question is: if no one has a plan for your life, does that include you (re: jp's comment)?

jpj wrote:as an opposite to this whole thread: can you explain to me where everything in the universe came from and how it came into being, if there is no god?

One extremely simple answer: Chuck Norris. The wise man should keep this in mind at all times!

This thread needs more quantum mechanics and ng.com brown Gurionism, though.

EDIT: Nanuk had good ideas on how to go about organized beliefs, though.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:21 am

JoshF wrote:There's no need to elaborate. I'm wondering what you think about the same moral coming from different sources or motivations. Does one have better results than the other?

it depends if you want to call it a moral or a rule... but to rephrase it: is it fair to assume an atheist (who has no belief in an after-life) will break rules for their own gain if they're convinced they wont be caught?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:35 am

Depends on their morals considerations I guess. I don't think they're based on the potentiality of a reward or punishment, supernatural or otherwise.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:55 am

Is it fair to assume a religious person will break rules if they believe God will forgive them? No, obviously there's two ways of looking at this, and it comes down to personal choice.

Atheists can look to the current state of reality in order to determine morality. Obviously this is a scary and bad concept which will inevitably lead to same-sex interspecies marriage, but srsly, even religions change their minds on things, as evidenced by the failure of most of the Old Testament to be taken seriously anymore.

Willonius_Monk · Post by **Willonius_Monk** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:50 am

Hihi,

Someone linked me to this thread, thinking I might have something to add here...and I trust the man's intuition on that point!

I'll boldly admit that I took it upon myself to watch the majority of the man's movies (which was part of the original purpose of the thread, IIRC) and as it turns out could make any number of reasonable, intelligent conclusions about his arguments. It would seem, however, as if I'm a bit alone in that regard...and I encourage anyone who wants to engage in argumentation to grant me some company- that is, actually watch the man's videos.

That being said, I'd say the man represents a weak and potentially unsophisticated form of atheistic existentialism (take his opinions on Easter or Christmas, for example). For that matter, he does not think that Christianity is completely off-base- on the contrary, he seems to think that the world would be better off if certain teachings of Jesus were upheld. What he does make clear (and to this point I'm strongly inclined to agree) is that Christianity is a parody unto itself, taking on the identity of the enemies described in the Bible and perverting nearly everything associated with it. In this regard he might have some respect, if he's ever heard of the author, Jacques Ellul. Ellul wrote an excellent book about how far from original Christian values Christianity has come called "Subversion of Christianity" (and if you really want a mind melting experience, try "Anarchy and Christianity" by the same author). In any case, it seems as though the youtuber isn't entirely a "throw the baby out with the bathwater" kinda guy.

He doesn't do atheism any favors by appearing to be a complete asshole and by drenching his remarks with sarcasm. That and if everyone took his advice by preaching what they practice, the concept of morals falls through floor. Suppose I'm a morally terrible person, and I tell people to act just like me because I'm not allowed to appeal to higher moral standards...it would mean that any given society is only going to look up to it's highest member for moral guidance- I'll leave you to wonder how far that argument really oughta be able to travel before we send it back where it came from.

Anyway, as far as the 'god debate' is concerned, the man brings up his central argument in "Why does faith deserve respect?". If I may make a Willonius translation, he thinks that 'God' is a junk concept and causes more problems for society than if it didn't exist at all. Yet as he seems to me to be more consistent than he lets on, I'd be willing to believe that he would embrace a helpful notion of God, perhaps a universal force that keeps natural events happening with due causality, etc. and perhaps he'd be willing to admit that we're allowed to make claims about the world as if they were knowledge (e.g., he's not a skeptic) because of some reason-bearing force of nature...but he may not entirely embrace what most religious persons call "God."

Lastly, explore a concept called "ignositicsm." It's glorious. Some people call it a conversation stopper. I call it a hiatus until reasonable arguments can resume. Give it a try.

Peace,

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:18 am

http://www.churchofreality.org/

Shitty site design and graphics, but a hoot to look through:

Are you already a Realist? - Do you find yourself thinking about reality? Do you think that it's important that what you believe in is actually real? Do you think for yourself rather than just believe what you are told to believe?

jp · Post by jp » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:41 am

Bah! They stole that from a NATAS song.

"So don't ask me 'bout G-O-D 'cause my religion is reality"

Etrian · Post by **Etrian** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:49 am

Willonius_Monk wrote:words

Hi Fighter17!

escadrille · Post by **escadrille** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:22 am

Nice to see a mix of fairly civil religious and non-religious people. Usually forums are either right-wing or left-wing, and consequently mostly super-pro-God or hardcore atheist.

I credit shmups with bringing people together. To my knowledge there hasn't even been a hori/vert schism leading to bloodshed.

t0yrobo · Post by **t0yrobo** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:37 am

escadrille wrote: To my knowledge there hasn't even been a hori/vert schism leading to bloodshed.

That'd be hilarious. I can imagine people holding signs like the ones with bible verses, but they just say either 3:4 or 4:3.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:39 am

escadrille wrote:Nice to see a mix of fairly civil religious and non-religious people. Usually forums are either right-wing or left-wing, and consequently mostly super-pro-God or hardcore atheist.

I credit shmups with bringing people together. To my knowledge there hasn't even been a hori/vert schism leading to bloodshed.

You weren't here for massacre of '04, were you?

Why do you think most people who have been around these parts for a while have a join date of '05? Is it because that's when these new board went up? Well, there's a nugget of truth there, but it's more than that. It's because after what happened in March '04, it took this site nine months to recover enough to get back on-line, and the folks with '05 in their join dates were the ones who were there to read it all go down. The site hacks, the flames, hori lovers raging against vert-aholics, the personal grudges that resulted in three real murders... yeah, it took this site a good while before anyone in charge even wanted to try and get a community going again.

Rumor has it, that the people who murdered three members of the old boards, are still visiting this site from prison. They don't post much, but late at night, if you happen to catch the right thread, you'll find a post from one of them before the mods get a chance to delete it. It's not talked about much, even on the IRC channel. But they're there... in the shadows of the Web... watching.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:42 am

The Coop wrote: Rumor has it, that the people who murdered three members of the old boards, are still visiting this site from prison. They don't post much, but late at night, if you happen to catch the right thread, you'll find a post from one of them before the mods get a chance to delete it. It's not talked about much, even on the IRC channel. But they're there... in the shadows of the Web... watching.

Some secrets are best left in the dark, Coop. You know what happened in the bad days and our oath is never to make it happen again, even if this entails to have people in the dark of the truth...

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:57 am

Randorama wrote:
The Coop wrote: Rumor has it, that the people who murdered three members of the old boards, are still visiting this site from prison. They don't post much, but late at night, if you happen to catch the right thread, you'll find a post from one of them before the mods get a chance to delete it. It's not talked about much, even on the IRC channel. But they're there... in the shadows of the Web... watching.
Some secrets are best left in the dark, Coop. You know what happened in the bad days and our oath is never to make it happen again, even if this entails to have people in the dark of the truth...

I know Rando. But remember what happened to C4v3L0v3r in '06? She was a good poster who happened to find one of those forbidden posts, and she wound up quoting it. God man... the hell she endured when... shit, you saw the pictures she posted. It's been over four years since that all happened, Rando. I don't about you, but I don't wanna see another new shmupper have to go through that kind of shit. They need to know who they can address, and who they can't.

Keeping it in the dark didn't do C4v3L0v3r any good... or Namc0t, or Gorn86, or any of the other new posters whose threads are in that hidden forum now. Better they know and be wary, than get another C4v3L0v3r... or God forbid, another ThePsikyoPsycho.

greg · Post by **greg** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:13 am

I just skipped this entire thread.

Laydock, I'm sure you find it annoying when Christians try to pick arguments with you about not believing in God and try to convert you to their way of thinking. Does it take more than a second or two of thought to understand that it is just as annoying when it is coming from the opposite direction? This dude in this video is just as big of an obnoxious prick as a street preacher. The cliche'd argumentative attitude is still there, but he's turning towards technology to spread his "gospel" of a void instead of a gospel of eternal love, condemnation, and all that. This guy in the video needs to get a life.

What's wrong with just leaving each other alone and stop rubbing each other's noses in our ideologies?

themachinist · Post by **themachinist** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:20 am

A religious fanatic in a non-religious fanatic's body.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:24 am

The Coop wrote:
I know Rando. But remember what happened to C4v3L0v3r in '06?

My heart breaks again at the sole thought. The pain, the scream, the Yossi black-ops militia, the DOJ secret Hibachi Ludwig re-hab mode...

Why Man goes to such lengths of darkness?

Better they know and be wary, than get another C4v3L0v3r... or God forbid, another ThePsikyoPsycho.

Lest we forget, and have again to endure the third loop holocaust again.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:47 am

I grew up in a pretty hardcore anti religious backround. I remember my dad doing a pretty eye opening lecture at an Irish university on belief in a god being comparable to belief in werewolves. His rationale was blunt, well thought out and pretty much impossible to argue with. It was also very aggressive, pretty scary in fact.

I'm still a godless atheist, but when I came to university, I met religious people for the first time. I started going out with a roman catholic girl and befriending people of all different religions. It was an experience I was initially aprehensive about, perhaps similar to the protagonist in Roald Dahl's Pig, but to my surprise, I wasn't killed horribly like in the story. Of course, these people are deluded, but no more than I was. What right do I have to tell these people their god is a werewolf? The belief in a god is still just as nonsensical to me today as it ever was, but now I just don't care.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:59 am

where's your god now?

<Embedded image changed to link. -inc.>

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:57 am

GodDARNIT Coop, do I have to go back to the hell again???

Etrian wrote:
Willonius_Monk wrote:words
Hi Fighter17!

wut r u talking bout

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:35 pm

The Coop wrote:I know Rando. But remember what happened to [specimen 33] in '06? She was a good poster who happened to find one of those forbidden posts, and she wound up quoting it.

There is no reason to talk about the departed in this thread nor to revive the old conspiracy theories. Specimen 33 was lost in a wildfire that consumed a disused sector of the forum. It knew better than to go exploring there.

There is no second database of posts removed prior to 2006-07-14.

Michaelm · Post by **Michaelm** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:36 pm

jpj wrote:can you see that religion (whether you believe or not) - for 99.9% of people - has a positive affect on them as a human being?

NO !!
Or do you mean staying stupid and indoctrinated is a good thing ?
Or believing in the flying spaghetti monster has a positive effect too ?

Using this argument is just so wrong.