What SHMUPS are actually "too short"?

[-Bridget-]

The only reason mainstream game reviewers claim that shmups are "too short" is because they credit-feed to the end and then say "ok, I beat it." I've rarely found a shmup that was too short (considering I've only 1cc'd a few easy ones). Some are way too long (Silvergun, Gradius V), but still, if you don't credit-feed, any shmup can last you 20-30 hours before you 1CC it, which coincided perfectly with the average length of most mainstream games. The entire complaint comes from the inexperience of the mainstream game reviewers.

Agreed.


Reviewers say it cause they dont ever seem capable of understanding the POINT of anything in this genre.


Mushihime, sure..... you credit-feed through this, you'll have it "beat" in no time at all.....


But play it the NORMAL way, and..... well, I've been at this game for a good year now, and I *still* dont have Ultra finished, and only fairly recently beat that thing at the end of Arrange. There's no lack of gameplay here for me.


Or for something like Shikigami 2..... not the longest game ever.... being a shmup..... but having already beaten it before, now I play it for score, which just adds to the replay value, and makes me play it more than I already did.



But it'd be nice if reviewers werent so freaking stupid......

[J-Manic]

I have to mention Gunbird 2. I played it this morning and I have to say. The game is pretty damn short. I don't know if it was just me being half asleep or what. I swear it felt like I flew thru the game within 15 minutes. I guess dodging all of those fast waves of bullets made the time fly by.

Time flies when you're having fun. Why don't you submit a score in the high-score thread?

Will do once I obtain a score worthy of posting.

[Rob]

You flew through the game though? credit feeder^

[ForceDevice]

But it'd be nice if reviewers werent so freaking stupid......

You don't get it. They're reviewers BECAUSE they're stupid.




...seriously though, I kinda understand some reviewers' complaints about shmups being too short. They are writing reviews for "casual gamers" after all... and a casual gamer - or one that isn't a shmup freak like most people on these forums - WILL find a shmup short, no matter how long it seems to us.

And if there was a reviewer that actually understood how this kind of game "works" in terms of replay value (the whole 1CC thing, playing for score and all), most people would just look at his reviews and say "WTF is this shit" and ignore them.

I personally don't like this kind of reviewing method, but it does suit the kind of player who reads them perfectly.

[Zebra Airforce]

They are writing reviews for "casual gamers" after all... and a casual gamer - or one that isn't a shmup freak like most people on these forums - WILL find a shmup short, no matter how long it seems to us.

Right, but if they actually took the time to educate their audience then it would no longer be an issue.

[evil_ash_xero]

Guess not. I know you're a diehard defender of them, but i'm not even talking about liking or disliking their games here. I just think their stages are too short. Not as short as Psyvariar's, but still.

The point is they're all that is good about stage-based shooters and stripped of more nonsense and repetition than anything else. Little time is wasted on warm-ups or glorified scoring opportunities. They're only too short if you like filler.

Hmm....I disagree, obviously, but I don't really have much to add to my argument.

Do you feel that Cave's games have a lot of "filler", because I think for arcade shooters(I do like the build up of a lot of made for home affairs), their stages are A-OK in the length department. I do wish they would go back to 6 stages, or even 5 and a half(like Ra.De), but their stage length is fine. And I feel that they are basically wall to wall blastfest, with no filler in sight.

But speaking of which, I do miss some of the old-school ways of making the game feel more like a game rather than just a stage of bullets. I always liked how Battle Garegga and Layer Section built up to the final levels like you actually felt like you were taking on some empire, rather than just blowing shit up. I miss the theatrics. Well, i'm just rambling now.

Totally off topic, but what a freaking soundtrack Giga Wing 2 has. I would love to see a couple more games copy that sound. That last boss with that music was quite powerful, presentation-wise.

s/m

[Rob]

Do you feel that Cave's games have a lot of "filler", because I think for arcade shooters(I do like the build up of a lot of made for home affairs), their stages are A-OK in the length department. I do wish they would go back to 6 stages, or even 5 and a half(like Ra.De), but their stage length is fine. And I feel that they are basically wall to wall blastfest, with no filler in sight.

A lot? No, but I feel the action is less intense (cue early 90s EGM reviews) and slower to take off. In the same space it has taken to clear 2 stages in a Cave game I'd probably encounter 4 bosses in a Psikyo game. Now what's the best part about a shooter. Bosses, right?

[Macaw]

Do you feel that Cave's games have a lot of "filler", because I think for arcade shooters(I do like the build up of a lot of made for home affairs), their stages are A-OK in the length department. I do wish they would go back to 6 stages, or even 5 and a half(like Ra.De), but their stage length is fine. And I feel that they are basically wall to wall blastfest, with no filler in sight.

A lot? No, but I feel the action is less intense (cue early 90s EGM reviews) and slower to take off. In the same space it has taken to clear 2 stages in a Cave game I'd probably encounter 4 bosses in a Psikyo game. Now what's the best part about a shooter. Bosses, right?

You should love rsg then.

[Zebra Airforce]

A lot? No, but I feel the action is less intense (cue early 90s EGM reviews) and slower to take off. In the same space it has taken to clear 2 stages in a Cave game I'd probably encounter 4 bosses in a Psikyo game. Now what's the best part about a shooter. Bosses, right?

I feel like Cave doesn't have enough power levels. I'd like at least twelve.

[Rob]

RSG bosses are R-Type-ish and too long (one attack pattern shouldn't be repeated more than 2-3 times), the parts between the bosses suck. (i.e. not a Psikyo game)

[jp]

RSG bosses are R-Type-ish and too long (one attack pattern shouldn't be repeated more than 2-3 times), the parts between the bosses suck. (i.e. not a Psikyo game)

Its called scoring well and having high level weapons.

[Rob]

Doesn't the Saturn-only mode attempt to fix that flaw?

[jp]

Saturn Mode makes you level up slower since Saturn Mode makes you play through all the levels.


I.e. In the Arcade Mode, you would pick between Stages 2 and 4, play through whichever you picked, and then go on to Stage 5.

In the Saturn Mode, you play through stages 3, 2, 4, 5, 6, 1.

So, to make sure that you aren't insanely overpowered come level 4, they made it so that the weapons don't level up as fast, but its still not too bad. I mean honestly, I don't think any boss ever gets more than 3 repeat patterns on me when I'm playing. And when I 1CC'd it Xiga went down before even cycling through all of his patterns once.

[spadgy]

First off - I have to defend 'mainstream' reviewers a bit. I do loads of other games journalism like features every day for work, but inevitably I do a fair few reviews, and I and numerous colleagues definitely like to know what we're talking about and not just cover stuff in an ignorant way, and give due attention to niche genres. Of course I accept numerous others also can't think out of the mainstream box.

I've gone out of my way to cover shmups wherever I can (Even got the word in a national paper in the UK recently! The Observer) and try and represent the genre well to ordinary gamers who might well get a lot from it.

Onto some of ForceDevice's interesting comments...

...seriously though, I kinda understand some reviewers' complaints about shmups being too short. They are writing reviews for "casual gamers" after all... and a casual gamer - or one that isn't a shmup freak like most people on these forums - WILL find a shmup short, no matter how long it seems to us.

And if there was a reviewer that actually understood how this kind of game "works" in terms of replay value (the whole 1CC thing, playing for score and all), most people would just look at his reviews and say "WTF is this shit" and ignore them.

Your first paragraph; I see what you are saying, and there's much truth to it, but I would say a reviewer is entitled to give the public a review that covers the game as it is and what it offers outside the 'casual' bracket, even when writing for a casual audience. Give them a chance to broaden their horizons I say, keeping it understandable and engaging of course, and covering the casual angle as well. I would say too many reviewers who do adapt their coverage for a 'casual' audience also underestimate what casual players can do. I've had loads of mates dismiss shmups as too hard before ever having a go. Then, when I finally get them on one and make them realise with delight it is possible for an ordinary gamer to really enjoy them as they should be played.

Second paragraph; You're absolutely right. It's a shame it's that way but it's true!

Finally, keeping truly casual and truly hardcore audiences happy with the same article is always damn hard!

[evil_ash_xero]

Do you feel that Cave's games have a lot of "filler", because I think for arcade shooters(I do like the build up of a lot of made for home affairs), their stages are A-OK in the length department. I do wish they would go back to 6 stages, or even 5 and a half(like Ra.De), but their stage length is fine. And I feel that they are basically wall to wall blastfest, with no filler in sight.

A lot? No, but I feel the action is less intense (cue early 90s EGM reviews) and slower to take off. In the same space it has taken to clear 2 stages in a Cave game I'd probably encounter 4 bosses in a Psikyo game. Now what's the best part about a shooter. Bosses, right?

I prefer the stages over the bosses. I guess that's why some games would strike me as "too short", since I like the stages.

You got me thinking about cool bosses now. Like that fish at the beginning of G Darius...

s/m

[spadgy]

I prefer the stages over the bosses.
s/m

I'm the same in general I reckon It's a hard one to call. I think I'm right though that prefering stages goes against the general consensus...

That said, I really do love some bosses.

[Rob]

Not that stages aren't important. But bosses should be the peak of a game's challenge and are usually focused strictly on survival while stages might be more about score.

I don't think G Darius is a good example, though. That's the old school EGM type of boss appreciation (looks - wow, multi-screen fish battlecruiser!). Many of them have slower paced action than the stages, which is pretty backwards.

[it290]

But speaking of which, I do miss some of the old-school ways of making the game feel more like a game rather than just a stage of bullets. I always liked how Battle Garegga and Layer Section built up to the final levels like you actually felt like you were taking on some empire, rather than just blowing shit up. I miss the theatrics. Well, i'm just rambling now.

I hear that... I also miss the tradition of moving from one locale to another continously, like in the Raidens or old Toaplan games. Not to pimp Under Defeat (again!) but it actually does have a pretty good sense of continuity and drama.

Not that stages aren't important. But bosses should be the peak of a game's challenge and are usually focused strictly on survival while stages might be more about score.

Agreed, but there are quite a few well-respected games which feature bosses as primary scoring opportunities. In these cases the stages are often more geared towards powering up and getting ready for the boss. Even in Psikyo games the optional boss parts (and in Dragon Blaze/Strikers 1999, the boss cores) count for a significant percentage of score.

[spadgy]

I hear that... I also miss the tradition of moving from one locale to another continously, like in the Raidens or old Toaplan games. Not to pimp Under Defeat (again!) but it actually does have a pretty good sense of continuity and drama.

That's why I like stages - they are where I get to imagine I'm some space pilot/air ace. Of course I play predominantly for the action, and never the 'plot', but the theme/setting is part of what excites me...

[markedkiller78]

Do you feel that Cave's games have a lot of "filler", because I think for arcade shooters(I do like the build up of a lot of made for home affairs), their stages are A-OK in the length department. I do wish they would go back to 6 stages, or even 5 and a half(like Ra.De), but their stage length is fine. And I feel that they are basically wall to wall blastfest, with no filler in sight.

A lot? No, but I feel the action is less intense (cue early 90s EGM reviews) and slower to take off. In the same space it has taken to clear 2 stages in a Cave game I'd probably encounter 4 bosses in a Psikyo game. Now what's the best part about a shooter. Bosses, right?

Irrespective of what I think is the best part of a shooter boss/stage in my eyes the best games have both. It's a fine line but too much of either and the game ends up sucking ass.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Chaos Field may be beaten in 15 minutes. I know.

[steveovig]

Is it too early to include the new Star Soldier Wii game?

[gameoverDude]

I always thought Thunder Force V could've used one more stage.

TFV does seem short, maybe half as long as the Mega Drive TFIV. TFV's level design overall seems to lack the variety found in IV, and I really missed the branching paths (which TFIV really makes good use of in its 8th level).

Score play can make up for a game being "short" though. Unfortunately, many mainstream reviewers don't play for score or try for a 1CC.

From 20-30 minutes is OK usually. Space Megaforce, Thunder Force IV, Musha, and Gaiares far exceed this - but I tend to not mind on these particular ones. These have some interesting level design overall (especially SM's space station in stage 2, and TFIV's 7th and 8th stages).

For US shmup releases, the publishers should limit the credits the way Border Down does (1 more credit added every so often, then Free Play after you've cleared it once).

[Aba'suto]

Out of all the Cave games, Progear feels the shortest to me.

Maybe it being horizontal gives it different sense of length.