resolution and scanlines discussion from 360 ports thread

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:59 pm

I just realized as long as they don't add any nasty filtering that can't be turned off I can force this back into low res with a extron emotia. 360 outputs VGA and that's all i need.... hmmm I just got more interested now.

Trevor spencer · Post by **Trevor spencer** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:49 pm

Strider77 wrote:I just realized as long as they don't add any nasty filtering that can't be turned off I can force this back into low res with a extron emotia. 360 outputs VGA and that's all i need.... hmmm I just got more interested now.

will you be using S-video ?

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:13 pm

no..... vga into the emotia then RGB out to a tate'd RGB PVM monitor.

Post by **undamned** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:29 pm

Why not 360 VGA set for a 4:3 screen -> [drum roll] a tated VGA Monitor?
-ud

UnscathedFlyingObject · Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:10 pm

I think they would have enough pixels to show the whole screen without even TATEing with HD.

Trevor spencer · Post by **Trevor spencer** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:03 pm

i was thinking a RGB scart lead into a CRT TV ?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:20 pm

bcass wrote:On the other hand, it could just be that any 'difficulty' would be that it wouldn't be easy to negotiate a publishing deal with a foreign publisher for this type of game.

In Japanese "Difficult" means "no" or "impossible". It does not mean difficult. But notice that he said, "saying so now would be difficult". Pretty understandable as they're early in the development process.

i was thinking a RGB scart lead into a CRT TV ?

You'll still need a device like Strider77 is talking about to simulate low res.

I think they would have enough pixels to show the whole screen without even TATEing with HD.

It's a screen size issue, not a pixel issue. The proper size would be limited to those with gynormous TVs.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:45 am

Why not 360 VGA set for a 4:3 screen -> [drum roll] a tated VGA Monitor?

no scanlines

Post by **undamned** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:37 pm

Strider77 wrote:
Why not 360 VGA set for a 4:3 screen -> [drum roll] a tated VGA Monitor?
no scanlines

The horror.
-ud

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:12 pm

Good, scanlines make my eyes hurt.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:29 pm

ok.... mushi and ibara must be awsome ports in you 2's eyes. wish I could feel that way.... guess I'll just have to live with my perfect PCBs and the ability to play ports in a corrected resolution.

honestly why give me a hard time about that, I rather have em in the original resolution is all. just brainstorming on here. besides I have everything set up except a VGA cord for the 360.

Post by **undamned** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:51 pm

I'm sorry if I'm a turd towards you, Strider. I just get crabby when people insist on certain things being present that aren't original. It's like insisting that music isn't complete without the hisses and pops of the original crappily recorded LP's. The hisses and pops aren't part of the music any more than scan lines are part of an arcade game.

Scan lines are inherent in the CRT monitor, not the PCB itself. If you play your PCB on a low-rez LCD like a PSOne screen, which is natively low rez, are there scan lines?
-ud

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:04 am

Filtered 480i has scanlines. You don't notice them because they're really going up and down really fast.

roker · Post by **roker** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:06 am

wow

this thread has become dominated by talk of resolution and other hub bub

this is so not typical for shmups

please, continue boring the shit out of me

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:08 am

Just a couple more trolling posts and he and the topic will be gone from the thread.

This is also a topic that seems to invade only Cave games.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:20 am

roker wrote:wow

this thread has become dominated by talk of resolution and other hub bub

this is so not typical for shmups

please, continue boring the shit out of me

LOL

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:57 am

undamned wrote: It's like insisting that music isn't complete without the hisses and pops of the original crappily recorded LP's.

Actually the "hisses and pops" you mention are a result of damage to the physical format it was pressed onto and has nothing to do with the recording itself.

p.s what's a scanline?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:19 am

The hisses and pops aren't part of the music any more than scan lines are part of an arcade game.

While scanlines are an artifact, doubled lines are as well. I think it's safe to say the designers know this, and having fake scanlines to emulate the way the hardware originally displayed the game is not a a far-fetched request. People spend a few hundred bucks on hardware to do it for them (XRGB).

please, continue boring the shit out of me

Sure... can we peal you some grapes while we're at it?

p.s what's a scanline?

roker.

Post by **undamned** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:57 am

GaijinPunch wrote:While scanlines are an artifact, doubled lines are as well.

I thought an artifact was something that catches the eye, something notable. Doubled lines have nothing notable, it's just pixels displayed in a completely uniform fashion, nothing broken or distracting.
-ud

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:05 am

I think it's safe to treat artifacts as "something originally unintended" in this context. Arguably, scanlines were intended (though I don't like them at all).

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:06 am

me talking about the scanlines wasn't suppose to be a big can of worms. All I said was I could use a emotia to put it back in low res for my tate monitor.

I just thought it was a niffty idea for pixel whores like me. If you don't care about then great. I can deal with it to as long as the filtering isn't their and no weirdo shimmering/wobbling goes on with the back grounds. I have a way to hook it up easy in low res to a low res monitor just like the arcade. I'm just a tinkerer by nature, I know how to do it so I want to do it.

Like the sega ages gunstar. If you play that game on a 480p tv with the scanlines on then off, even if you prefer it off, I would at least see why someone would like it on. I mean I can kinda see why one person wouldn't care or want em off. Although I confess I have no clue why anyone would want the crappy filtering plus no scanlines then interlaced over true low res.

roker · Post by **roker** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:39 am

Strider77 wrote:me talking about the scanlines wasn't suppose to be a big can of worms.

(I bet that's the look you gave when you typed that out)

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:46 am

undamned wrote: I thought an artifact was something that catches the eye, something notable. Doubled lines have nothing notable, it's just pixels displayed in a completely uniform fashion, nothing broken or distracting.
-ud

Broken: debatable
Distracting: debatable
Scanlines doing the same: also debatable but they are clearly considered in the original. I mean... what's not uniform of scanlines? Every other line is blacked. Personally I fine line-doubled quite irritating, and interlaced even moreso.

Post by **undamned** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:56 pm

Strider77 wrote:pixel whores like me

You mean scan line whore. If it were a matter of pixels, this wouldn't be an issue. Like I said, PSOne screen can display native low rez RGB w/o scanlines (240p).

Strider77 wrote:Although I confess I have no clue why anyone would want the crappy filtering plus no scanlines then interlaced over true low res.

Minus the scanline comment, we are in agreement

-ud

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:58 pm

I'm waiting for the scanlines argument to pop up in the Aces thread.

Haha, fat chance. That requires people to actually spend more time looking at the games than playing them.

GP: Are you confusing line doubled with interpolation? An example of line doubled is the default display mode in emulators like Gens, where the pixels just look twice as big.

Also, a line doubled 320x240 to 640x480 output through an ATI card in "video mode" has scanlines and all, even though it's supposed to be shown as doubled pixels. Kamui is an excellent example of this.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:41 pm

Like I said, PSOne screen can display native low rez RGB w/o scanlines (240p).

how.... 240p has scanlines, 480i does not.

Kron · Post by **Kron** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:17 pm

The clue is in the name.

(i)Interlaced = Scanlines. ie every second line is only displayed.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:37 pm

how.... 240p has scanlines, 480i does not.

He's talking about the screen...one of those little crappy LCDs that will destroy your retinas. Same as a PSP...it is 240p w/ no scanlines. Either are hardly the defacto gaming monitor though.

Twiddle wrote: GP: Are you confusing line doubled with interpolation? An example of line doubled is the default display mode in emulators like Gens, where the pixels just look twice as big.

If you're playing the game on an HDTV, it will be line-doubled. If you play them on a CRT, it will be interlaced. Both suck ass I think, but the "fuzz" factor in interlaced is more irksome. With the former, you can run it through an XRGB-2 at least.

Also, a line doubled 320x240 to 640x480 output through an ATI card in "video mode" has scanlines and all, even though it's supposed to be shown as doubled pixels. Kamui is an excellent example of this.

Right, but the 360 (or the software running actually) doesn't (or most likely won't) support this. Not impossible, but I won't hold my breath.

Post by **undamned** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:20 am

Strider77 wrote:
Like I said, PSOne screen can display native low rez RGB w/o scanlines (240p).
how.... 240p has scanlines, 480i does not.

Dude, the scan lines we are talking about are the dark lines between lines of pixels, correct? Those lines are built in to the CRT monitor you are using. There is an inherent gap between the lines of pixels. This inherent gap would be visible on that monitor [brace yourself] regardless of interlaced or non-interlaced signal.

The only difference between interlaced and non-interlaced is that interlaced first draws every other line and then fills in every other line. Progressive draws them progressively. Neither of these definitions make account for the inherent "scan lines" we are talking about. The example I gave of the PSOne screen is because it is a low resolution display which has no inherent "scan lines." Every line of pixels is stacked upon another. No gaps. You obviously need your gaps like I need my wheaties.
-ud

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:52 am

So many people have posted their thoughts on this subject in this forum, and I have yet to come across a single one who seems to realize what the main issue is. Except from Recap, of course, and he no longer posts here, nor does he seem to have the patience to explain things to people who have no manners, nor any desire to acquire some.

Anyway. Perhaps one of these days I'll sit down and do this properly myself. In the meantime, I'll give everyone two clues, courtesy of Recap and NFG:

Clue #1

NFG wrote:The artist didn't add scanlines and blur the image, the TV did.

Recap wrote:Yeah. And Tiziano didn't add a background rugosity on his paintings either. The canvas did.

Clue #2