Westerners vs Japanese Arcades...

[Harlequin]

After reading through the WR Thread, i seriously think we have no chance of getting anywhere near the level the Japanese are at with thier STG play.

I mean these guys have groups they go to Arcades with and share information and tips etc...

Talk about divide and conquor we Westerners are so scattered around the world and the Arcade scene is virtually non existant, we have no chance.

I also now refuse to call STG's by any other name, if we are going to be serious and give the Japanese a run for thier money and get a WR how about we stop calling them 'Shmups' WTF stupid word


Harlequin

[SockPuppetHyren]

There are arcades in America?

[PROMETHEUS]

I also kind of stopped calling them "shmups", I don't like the word either :p

[Warp_Rattler]

Just out of curiousity, why the backlash against 'shmups' as a word? I mean, granted it's a bit corny and I'm not totally defending it, but I see this violent opposition to the name quite often on the corners of the intertubes frequented by the hipster kids with their psuedo-intellectual musings on game design and their scoffing at the popular or commonplace (which boosts indie cred, you know). But seriously, why the hate?

As an aside, I doubt the commonplace terminology for scrolling shooters has much if anything to do with the divide in skill between Japanese and Western players; the more plausable causes I can see would be a wholesale decline in arcade culture, along with the fact that shumps in the west are far more of a niche genre than they have ever been in Japan.

But basically what it comes down to is there's just more crazy OCD bastards here in Japan willing to drop $1000 a month on perfecting their scoring techniques on Mushi Futari and the like.

[Michaelm]

In the west arcades have been replaced by slot machines because they bring greater profit.
I think this can be explained because westerners work to make a profit instead of just a living. Or so it seems...

[CIT]

Just out of curiousity, why the backlash against 'shmups' as a word. I mean, granted it's a bit corny and I'm not totally defending it, but I see this violent opposition to the name quite often on the corners of the intertubes frequented by the hipster kids with their psuedo-intellectual musings on game design and their scoffing at the popular or commonplace (which boosts indie cred, you know). But seriously, why the hate?

I wrote this before somewhere here, I think "shmup" sounds too much like "shmuck".

[PC Engine Fan X!]

In the west arcades have been replaced by slot machines because they bring greater profit.
I think this can be explained because westerners work to make a profit instead of just a living. Or so it seems...

Hence the real reason why Williams dropped out of the pinball business because they saw it was more profitable to manufacture slot machines and make their profit shareholders happy as well. Big business must adapt to the changing times or else, fold and call it quits.

There still is an market for American arcades with some American arcade manufacturers still around like Raw Thrills, Global VR, etc. that churn out games every year. It's that the current American arcade scene isn't what it used to be like how it was back in the early 1980's and into the 1990's (as referred to the "Golden Age & Silver Age" of American arcades)... ^_~

Back in the 1980's, a traditional American arcade would never have those dreaded prize redemption machines or the prize ticket spouting ones -- just good ol' fashioned full-sized arcade cabinets (cabaret + cocktail table versions of arcade games as well) and pinballs. (But if you want to attract new clientele, one must cater to what is profitable and stick with what brings in the cash.) Of course, being the exception that both Showbiz Pizza Theater and Chuckie E. Cheese's Pizza Time Theater with their myriad of prize ticket redemption games. Naturally, all prizes could be bought with cash if one didn't have enough tickets to cash in at Jasper's General Country Store inside the CEC joint. ^_~

The real place to be right now is at a Japanese game center as far as shmups go -- they're, indeed, legendary..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[doctorx0079]

The American arcade scene has been taken over by ticket games and slot-machine-like games. There are also Megatouch machines, golf and bowling games here and there. D&B's has mostly racing and light gun games, and those crazy horse racing things. I think we could see a resurgence in arcades with pure action games when volumetric (3D hologram) displays become more feasible. It's going to be quite a while before you can put one of those in your living room. Something like that would definitely eat up the quarters, I mean dollar bills.

[A_Civilian]

America...?

I hardly even see arcade cabinets OR those ticket-redeeming game centers anymore...

Capitalism blows.

[stuminator]

There are arcades in America?

[bee-mangadrive]

The economy assumes everyone is playing video games at home both privately and socially. I could also come up with some Wild conspiracy that Bill Gates had something to do with it, but it wouldnt seem too impossible would it.

I know my state in particular went through a bout recently in legislature about Video Poker machines. It was not uncommon for someone to rent a trailer, an acre of land and fill it up full of poker machines where people would spend entire paychecks against a machine that responded very much like a Vegas dealer with no human assistance needed. Inactivity would tell the machine to hook someone with a light win and bait them to a certain point of inevitable failure, so the people running these houses would get wise and start unplugging machines. "Oh that one is broke, so play that one over there thats been warm all day". It was'nt the machines themselves that got them banned, it was this AI strategy and... of course they didnt tax it enough so.... "Video games that allow gambling" were banned, which forced the coin-op market to recall an incredible amount of machines at once. I picked up some, at the time, high profile stuff from Capcom/Midway/Sega for next to nothing because these guys had to play clearinghouse literally. The only ones still in buisness were ones that were smart enough to put stuff in bars/pub and have them on routine stops. Pool tables and pinball, but not total arcade games. These guys went from thriving to practically sleeping in thier cars now if they were'nt wise. A state lottery was put in its place and now its the same exact thing , taxed, and even worse odds of winning. The coin operated machines evolved into the same exact type of system, but instead they spit out scratch off cards. Line up 3 7's and win a cash prize.. Might as well have slot machines....

There was an arcade where I spent a lot of my youth. I came back home recently and took off with a handful of quarters. The same guy was still there and looked surprised to see a customer. He had the same games like I had never left the place, and I couldnt have been happier, but he said no one wanted to play old games anymore and the new ones were just too expensive. Eventually they decided to dual lane the highway and he ended up just selling out for the land... sad times indeed. Theres a few arcades here and there at larger shopping malls and movie theaters, but there is nothing like the sea of coin-op machines that used to exsist in our tourist trap known as Myrtle Beach. Its all skeeball, and junk stuff now. One or two big hubs still remain, but it used to be nothing but games in the Pavlion area (which they bulldozed too). Now the chances of them carrying anything from Cave or any great shooter would be fair and few between. You don't see those types of games anymore. Its all the specialty hardware cabs and anything traditional style is Tekken or Naomi stuff. They will throw in Pac-Man and Galaga 'for ole times sake', but DDR will be packed. No thanks

[Lynx Winters]

From what I've seen, LAN Centers are becoming the new arcades in the US. You go in, you pay to use the computers and play the games, you leave when you're tired of playing or you run out of money.

The social aspect of arcades of olden times is there, since you and a few friends go in and play WoW or Counterstrike or whatever and you're all right there talking to each other instead of typing, allowing for much faster and more reliable communication. More often than not, the people running the place are doing it because they like gaming just as much as they like making money. And like the arcades of the 80s and 90s you have parents who drop off their little brats like it's some sort of daycare center who basically run around and piss off the staff and other customers.

I grew up in arcades as much as I could, and I've always been in love with the concept of arcades. However, you couldn't pay me enough to open a pure arcade these days. I would be a lot more likely to start my own LAN Center and buy a few cabinets and PCBs as well, but a straight-up arcade is pretty much out of the question these days if you're looking to turn any sort of profit here in the States.

[bee-mangadrive]

Good call with the LAN center and never really looked at that way. Very true

((.. this whole Bill Gates thing is just making more and more sense *cackles*))

[BryanM]

Just out of curiousity, why the backlash against 'shmups' as a word?

For myself is the glut of dumb non-words I've been assaulted with by using the internet. Some samples:

"Tank" (used out of context)
"Nuker" (used out of context, not referring to a microwave)
"wug" (wut u got?)
"blog"
"nub"

I don't hate people for using shoot'em aparts. But acronyms and mooshed words get me down.

[Ed Oscuro]

But acronyms and mooshed words get me down.

teto, my friend, teto

(to each their own)

[MX7]

The worst internet inflection is certainly adding "eh" in arbitrary places. It makes my blood boil.

Semi OT: I only ever would use the word 'shmups' when refering to this very website. 'STG' is much more elegant, and it provides a perfect antethesis to the term 'FPS'.

[maxlords]

And STG stands for what?

Shoot The Gun
Simple Timing Game
Star Trek Galaxy
Splatter Their Guts
Shooting Task Gradient

I got nothing.

[MX7]

Shoo(T)ing Game.





Obviously.

[FIL]

I haven't noticed any backlash against the word "shmup" myself. STG is perhaps even less descriptive a term. Shooting games? you mean like halo right?

[maxlords]

Yeah, every time I mention a shooter or a shooting game to my non-shmup friends...they think of either Halo/Half-Life/etc or Time Crisis-style gun games. I had to explain the term shmup but it made sense to em. STG would just confuse em. Don't we have enough acronyms?

[Udderdude]

Shooting games? you mean like Quake right?

Fixed.

I have to agree with a lot of sentiment here about the downfall of arcades.

Arcades fell behind the times in technology and gameplay. Previously, they were full of games that had features (graphics, gameplay, etc.) you couldn't get at home. There was a reason to go to the arcade - the home ports just weren't as good as the arcade originals.

As time went on, console and PC games surpassed arcade games in terms of features, graphics, etc. Plus you could play them at home, didn't need to drag your ass to the arcade. Console ports of arcade games became arcade perfect, and even added new features not available in the arcade.

I also agree about the rise of web cafes. It's pretty sad that these PCs, running windows, can out-power most arcade hardware. In fact, Taito Type X/X2 is PC hardware!

There is a arcade in Toronto, that is a real shame of a place. It's dark, smells like cig smoke, and most of the machines in the back are busted or the controls are ass. Ironically they have 6 webcafe-style PCs set up right in front for $3/hr. It's everything that's wrong with arcades. :/

[Warp_Rattler]

Shooting games is a perfect label. I used to play Duck Hunt all the time when I was little, and I still break out the Guncon 2 occasionally for a bout of Ninja Assault when I'm really bored.

----

I wonder if not just a little of the decline of Western arcades is related to some of the aforementioned need for additional income that results in arcades doing double-duty as bars and pool halls. Considering that arcade gaming of olde in the States was aimed at a much younger crowd than draws arcade gamers in Japan, it's not unthinkable that parental concern regarding the locales could have been partially responsible for a decline in youth visiting arcades.

[Octopod]

House of the Dead owns.

[-Bridget-]

I agree that arcades here in the US blow.

But that doesnt mean that a dedicated player cant become just as skilled as some of the Japanese ones do.

It's all about practice and such, not region/race/gender/hair-color/stylish shoes.

Sorry, had to at least say that. Mainly because I get danged sick of hearing fighter "pros" state that one as if it were fact.



BUT, I'll say that I honestly respect the Japanese gaming community ALOT more than I do the often-lazy US one. Oh yes.

Just looking at a preview for Shikigami no Shiro 3 (on the Wii) showed well the state of things here.... it seems that so many players here are afraid of a challenge, gotta have their infinite continues and such.... aside from the usual "can be completed in 20 minutes with credit-feeding", there was also "one of the hardest games I've ever played" from the writers.

Isnt Shiki 3 supposed to be a bit easier than 2? And 2 isnt really all that hard to begin with. Even my cousin who barely plays shmups understands well why that is.


Well, that's my opinion on things, anyway.



And I'll also say, I often wish I was in Japan rather than HERE, definitely.


But for now, Im stuck with various imported port versions of my favorite shmups. Ah well.......

[Zebra Airforce]

mean these guys have groups they go to Arcades with and share information and tips etc...

If only there was a way for us to get together and share information...

I also now refuse to call STG's by any other name, if we are going to be serious and give the Japanese a run for thier money and get a WR how about we stop calling them 'Shmups' WTF stupid word

You're right, maybe we should also start speaking japanese and eating only japanese food and wearing japanese clothing. You should probably also stop watching TV and movies unless they are japanese. This will definitely help you play better. I also stopped eating chips and switched to pocky, and now I have gotten to stage three in Gradius IV.

[EOJ]

I wrote this before somewhere here, I think "shmup" sounds too much like "shmuck".

STG sounds too much like STD. So we shouldn't use that either.

[Harlequin]

You're right, maybe we should also start speaking japanese and eating only japanese food and wearing japanese clothing. You should probably also stop watching TV and movies unless they are japanese. This will definitely help you play better. I also stopped eating chips and switched to pocky, and now I have gotten to stage three in Gradius IV.

Sounds like a plan!


Harlequin

[Warp_Rattler]

Man, fuck Pocky. It's just frosting on a goddamned pretzel stick.

In regards to the Japanese being so much better at shooters or even fighters for that matter is that by being Japanese they enjoy one significant advantage over the west: the ubiquity of arcades in which to play these games. That's it; there's no racial predisposition to the sort of OCD required to clear those games, just easy access to the games and the willingness to spend $1500 a month (one of the players on the Mushi Futari DVD stated he spent about that much in the first month of the game's release) honing your skills at your game of choice. That's it. There's no secret 1CC gene that the Japanese possess; to suggest otherwise is stunningly ignorant of reality at best, and mildly racist at the worst.

[CIT]

I wrote this before somewhere here, I think "shmup" sounds too much like "shmuck".

STG sounds too much like STD. So we shouldn't use that either.

I agree.

[Klatrymadon]

I can't get into the habit of using 'STG' purely because it holds no historical value for me. I understand that it may have been common parlance elsewhere, but it was never part of my gaming vocabulary as a kiddy. 'STG' doesn't help me to differentiate between Imperishable Night and Quake when I'm talking to someone who doesn't play games much, either. There's more chance of them thinking of the right genre if I say "shooters" or "shoot-'em-ups", as useless as those terms have become...

Of course, we should all just call 'em whatever we want. It doesn't kill a conversation if you have to say "like Gradius [or whatever title you care to name]", does it?