Lords of Thunder... Virtual Console... BEST MUSIC EVER

[FRO]

I bought it on Wii.

Why? Simple: I've been standing on my soapbox for damn near close to 3 years now, complaining that legal, commercial emulation has been possible for years, and that corporates are a bunch of no hopers if the best they can do is hurl insults at retro gamers from afar, calling us "thieves" and "pirates" when we download something that isn't for sale.

Search my posts in this forum and you'll find countless times where I've ranted about second (and third, and forth, and...) hand sales being bullshit - how they don't support the industry, and that the concept of legality when it comes to games that aren't in production is rubbish. Basically put, if no-one is willing to sell it to me, then stop calling me a thief when I download it. (And if another person tells me "But it's the law", I'll break their fingers. The people make the laws, and the people need to question the laws when the laws are outdated and don't apply any more - something that is happening right now in this age of copyright and licensing concerning zero-cost digital distribution).

On the flipside, I totally acknowledge gaming is a "want" and not a "need". While I still stand by all of the above, there is a part of me that still feels some guilt for downloading games without paying the copyright holder for their (sometimes) brilliant work. Short of writing a personal cheque and mailing it to the original developers, there's not much available to me in the way of satisfactory payment options.

Wii VC is my putting my money where my mouth is. Thus far I have bought both Blazing Lazers (ie: Gunhed) and Lords of Thunder. Both games utterly rock, and the AU$9 I paid for them is honestly peanuts. Even if I had paid for the console (it's a loaner from a friend who went overseas for a few years), I don't consider it a waste, as I actually use the console for a great deal of other games (GC and Wii stuff, particularly arcade ports like Ghost Squad, Resident Evil 4 and UC, Zelda: TP, and the soon to be released House of the Dead collection).

I've played both Blazing Lazers and Gunhed on emulators on my PC. I have *ALL* of the PC Engine and PCE-CDROM games downloaded from my favourite torrent site. I do this because I like to play games, and the games are fun (and I never had a chance to buy the originals as a child, mostly because the PC Engine had a piss-poor showing in Australia).

BUT... should the games become commercially available, I buy them. As I said, this is me putting my money where my mouth is. Apple saw huge success in iTunes with a simple philosophy: make paying for something easier than stealing it. Wii VC does the same, and honestly I've been ranting about this for so long - and now that it's finally happened, I'm backing them with cash.

Bravo to any developer/publisher who re-releases old games for a reasonable price to the mass market. This has been 3 years in the waiting, and I'm pleased as punch that it's here. Sure, I can go buy a PC Engine off eBay for less than a Wii, but I couldn't give a shit about the archaic concept of "licensing" when it comes to second-hand sales that don't financially benefit the copyright holder. Paying a few bucks on Wii VC and knowing that Hudson see at least a partial cut makes me feel good.

So I've bought 2 games in 2 weeks. I'm going to keep it up and keep buying games. Maybe it will make other developers open their eyes and do the same.

Treasure are putting Ikaruga on XBLA. I have a "pirate" copy of Ikaruga on Dreamcast, again because I have no interest in lining the wallet of some wanker collector on eBay and knowing full well that Treasure won't see a cent of the sale. When the day comes that I buy a 360 (and that day *will* come, once the console is at a reasonable price), I'll pay for Ikaruga, knowing that Treasure get a cut.

And who knows... maybe we'll see more shmup companies pushing console and arcade releases to the various download services.

ON TOPIC:

Lords of Thunder rocks, in all senses of the word. I've always preferred vertical shooters, but this is one of the few horizontals that really floats my boat. Asides from the cool music, even on mute the gameplay still holds it's own. It's that perfect amount of tough where you get a little bit further on every try, but won't be finishing it in a few days.

No, it doesn't do 240p, and yes interlace modes suck balls. But it's a minor inconvenience for the satisfaction of buying a title and knowing the money goes to the right people.

All flames can be sent to /dev/null.

I agree w/ virtually everything you've said here - bravo. Though, I do agree w/ Ceph that Nintendo should be selling VC titles for pennies on the dollar, not nearly $10USD when the game is over 10 years old. Granted, there are costs to develop the emulation, but the reality is that the prices are inflated for 2 reasons. Firstly, to rake in those who haven't heard or emulation on computers/consoles and/or those who have been unsuccessful (read: non-technical folk) in getting them to work. Secondly, it's to cash in on the aforementioned "retro-mania" that seems to be going on right now, because they are a BUSINESS, plain and simple, and they're not out to serve you; you're out to serve them, at least in their eyes. They had the ultimate cash-cow in the 80's & early 90's w/ the NES; if they can milk more money out of it now that they've lost the patent on the 72-pin connectors, you bet your booty they're going to do it.

[DJ Incompetent]

DJ Incompetent - Hard - 1,565,700 - All - Wii


er...yeah...zeros. They be pesky bastards. Also, T9.

[Zeether]

DJ Incompetent - Hard - 15,605,700 - All

[CMoon]

It should also be taken into consideration that the people who originally created the games won't get ANY of that money; profits are only made by Nintendo and the companies who currently own the copyrights, which in many cases probably aren't even the companies who originally developed the games.

The thing is, this is the way things have almost always been. Individual creators (whether in video games, music, art, etc.) often get lost in the trample of copyrights. Most music you purchase (if you purchase music) does not directly profit the musician, or if it does, it is only the tiniest fraction. Since as long as I can remember, companies/labels have always owned the rights to what they release, and the challenge that the artist owns their own work is a relatively modern position (one I agree with) that has in general not taken hold.

Let's actually take the Street Fighter games. I suspect nearly every programmer who was involved with that series has left Capcom, yet Capcom continues to sell the game in various iterations. There is no way to give the money directly to the programmers, but we can give it to Capcom who will probably use it to make more games.

I agree this is less than ideal, but it is also far better than just downloading for free. It also gets me playing PC Engine games that I wouldn't be playing otherwise.

[zero.otaku]

I own pretty much every console that the VC emulates with the exception of an AES and most of the games that I would download I own the original version of. That being said, I think VC is awesome. Not everyone knows about emulators or would be willing to scour the Internet for ROMs or buy controllers (that usually suck) for their PCs. Some people don't even *have* computers (I know, I know - hard to believe), so what the hell is wrong with Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony or whoever putting this stuff up for download? To be honest, even if curious people *were* to hop on the Interweb and get an emulator downloaded and running, they'd probably just download the same crap licensed games they played back in the '80s or whenever whereas VC, PSN, and XBL are introducing a whole new audience to games that were overlooked when they came out. Do you really think someone who knows jack shit about shooters or games in general is going to be inclined to seek out Lords of Thunder, Dead Moon, or whatever obscure shmup from the sea of trash released for any given console? Highly unlikely. But seeing it in the VC's online shop might spark some interest and given the ease and (IMO) cheapness of acquisition, they're more likely to give it a shot. And who knows, if they really dig it, perhaps that'll cause them to go out and fork over the cash for the real hardware and a good ol' physical copy of the game.

[Ganelon]

Imagine how much better these VC games would be selling if emulation didn't exist.

VC would simply NOT exist without emulation because that's what started the whole "retro mania". Publishers saw that thousands of people are downloading and playing their old games so they started to capitalize on this evident demand.

And how do you explain why plenty of collections and ports of older games existed well before emulation even got headway? Publishers are expected to reuse their products, just as any other media has done in the past. Someone would've designed this feature eventually and either way, it would compete with illegal emulation head on since your only alternatives to playing are getting the original games (unthinkable for most modern or casual gamers), emulating, or buying VC.

[Mortificator]

You really think there's no connection between the rise of freeware emulation and the debut of commercial emulation? Yeah, ports existed before the VC and XBLA, and more $20 Classic NES Series games is what you'd be getting otherwise.

You're certainly free to feel that way, but can I ask how you feel about a few other things? There's a nice public library within walking distance of where I live. When I go there and read a book/magazine/newspaper/whatever without compensating the publisher, is it wrong?

The majority of games I buy are second-hand. I'm old enough and have enough to keep me occupied that I have no trouble waiting a while before getting the game I want, at a much lower price. However, just like with emulators I'm playing the game without paying the copyright owners. Should this be prohibited?

I look at the games sitting out and see that many of them aren't mine. A lot are borrowed from my brother or friends, and they have a lot of games I bought too. Is this OK? Multiple people are playing a game one person bought, as it is when someone shares the ROM from their game over the Internet.

The ROMs on the internet are illegally copied. It's different from a library, borrowing with permission, or buying a used game that someone owned and gave permission for someone else to sell.

How is it different? As with ROM downloading, in every one of those situations a person is enjoying usage of the media without the copyright holders' consent and without paying for it. I don't see what the rational is for saying that's sometimes ethical and sometimes bad bad bad, unless you're taking the stance that "Congress is infallible, everything legal is right and everything illegal is wrong."

Their practices were compared to unethical practices, despite how they are using their own roms and may not be shoddily emulating like you said. My questions about 240p and progressive scan were skipped over. What's with the flippant replies? I'm not telling you to stop, I'm just telling you my opinions.

Since you've said that downloading ROMs is tantamount to stealing and patently unethical, your opinions seem to be that I am an amoral thief. Anyway, I'd have answered your questions if I could, but I simply don't know the proportion of VC games that support 240p and progressive scan. I don't buy VC games. But you've probably already guessed that.

From experience, I also found trying games out to take time away from playing the games I have on my systems rather than helping me make a choice on a game.

Hey, I almost forgot that you've mentioned using emulators in the past! Now that you think that's unethical, do you intend to pay damages to the companies you've oh-so-heinously harmed?

I was not condoning the use of them, or telling you not to use them. I was stating my opinion. I said it's not about the companies. It's about what I feel is right or wrong. I intend to buy some of the games I tried. I know Nintendo or whoever won't be getting a cent, but I like playing games on the real systems and supporting companies that sell old games that don't have scratches all over them.

Hey, do whatever makes you happy. I was just surprised because you reminded me of how in the past you've talked about using emulators. You have to admit, realizing that the person who's been telling you downloading ROMs for free is unethical has himself been downloading ROMs for free is kind of shocking.

I typically side with Ceph but in this case I think he was wrong in his original post. The thread was started to say 'hey look, LoT is now on the VC.' The only real response to that is either going to be comparison to the port, perhaps celebration, or maybe talking about how great the game is.

So we're supposed to jizz all over ourselves every time a substandard emulator finally adds support for one more game? But I can make a quick port comparison for you if you want.

On actual PCE: Flawless
On Magic Engine: Flawless
On Virtual Console: Not flawless

But at least you can take that LoT image you bought through Nintendo and boot it up in your emulator of choice, or burn it and play on a real console. It's not just tied to one specic Wii in a way that makes Apple's old "three copies of a song" DRM seem wildly liberating. Right?

But we can talk about how great the game is. It is pretty great. In fact, I'd be happy to send some cash the way of the dedicated devs and awesome band, but there's no way to do that. Oh well.

[The Coop]

DJ Incompetent - Hard - 15,605,700 - All

The Coop - Hard - 1,742,090 - All (Sega CD version)


I'm guessing there are scoring differences between the two versions?

[szycag]

@ scoring differences

Maybe there are more differences between the two versions than once thought, or I'm totally missing something

[The Coop]

Maybe he counted the "0C" under the high score during a demo after the ending as an extra zero by accident? That, or there's one fuck of a bonus

[Ganelon]

You really think there's no connection between the rise of freeware emulation and the debut of commercial emulation? Yeah, ports existed before the VC and XBLA, and more $20 Classic NES Series games is what you'd be getting otherwise.

Back when I tried out my first emulators in 97, emulation was already very popular to those in the know. Emu sites were getting shut down left and right back in those days, indicating that Nintendo was well aware of the possibilities at the time.

Nintendo was ahead of the game by starting their ROM burning process back in the late 90s in Japan, albeit still using carts and paper manuals. Nintendo or any other company had plenty of opportunity to take advantage of a ROM service in the meantime but nobody took the bait until over a decade later.

And it wasn't even an immediately obvious decision since Star Roms's trail to demise showed that commercializing ROMs wasn't a bygone good idea. To me, it's naive for anybody to think Nintendo took advantage of emulation rather than the other way around. Perhaps the popularity of emulation was a factor to take into account, but it's undeniable that based on an open market, Nintendo has lost demand, and consequently money, to piracy.

How is it different? As with ROM downloading, in every one of those situations a person is enjoying usage of the media without the copyright holders' consent and without paying for it. I don't see what the rational is for saying that's sometimes ethical and sometimes bad bad bad, unless you're taking the stance that "Congress is infallible, everything legal is right and everything illegal is wrong."

It's the difference between listening to a song on the radio and pirating an mp3. Or banging a girl who wants to be done and banging a girl who doesn't. You weren't given consent. Publishers of books published them with the knowledge that libraries were legal; not so with game publishers who were relying on their intellectual property rights. After all, why not just illegally download all the software you want? Nobody's "losing" anything, but surely you can see how they're losing out on the bottom line.

You represent a lost customer; maybe some wouldn't buy anyway but some definitely would have. That's why publishers like SNK hate emulation since they give consumers an option to avoid paying for the experience. Whether you believe more people at large wouldn't pay anyway is your own deluded hypothesis, backed by sheer guessing rather than the risk of financial doom.

Why you're defending your piracy and questioning the nature of laws when you're being called out for not following them doesn't make sense to me. Just say you know about it, don't really care for it, and move on. There's nothing much else to say after that.

On Magic Engine: Flawless

There were minor glitches on numerous games last I checked.

[Mortificator]

Really? I admit I’m only going by hearsay for this game, since I use Yame to emulate the Turbo-CD and it doesn't have any problems with LoT. That’s one of the nice things about having DRM-free ROMs, the ability to choose your software. But anyway, what are the problems the most recent version of Magic Engine has with Lords of Thunder?

How is it different? As with ROM downloading, in every one of those situations a person is enjoying usage of the media without the copyright holders' consent and without paying for it. I don't see what the rational is for saying that's sometimes ethical and sometimes bad bad bad, unless you're taking the stance that "Congress is infallible, everything legal is right and everything illegal is wrong."

It's the difference between listening to a song on the radio and pirating an mp3. Or banging a girl who wants to be done and banging a girl who doesn't. You weren't given consent. Publishers of books published them with the knowledge that libraries were legal; not so with game publishers who were relying on their intellectual property rights.

No consent is given by the copyright holders in the examples I used, either. I don't have the consent of Capcom to play this borrowed copy of DMC. Sony didn't give me permission to buy these second-hand disks, and in fact hate the practice. And even you acknowledge that copyright holders don't give libraries consent to distribute everything from novels to DVD movies, but that's somehow different because they "know" their IPs will be given away? Sorry, try again.

After all, why not just illegally download all the software you want? Nobody's "losing" anything, but surely you can see how they're losing out on the bottom line.

No one's talking about downloading recent software, which is pretty clear-cut (though still not stealing). Right now the law doesn't understand the difference between downloading an ap that just hit retail and downloading Recca. Do you think there's a difference?

Nintendo or any other company had plenty of opportunity to take advantage of a ROM service in the meantime but nobody took the bait until over a decade later.

There was no viable means for Nintendo to set up the VC until the Wii. Going by the interviews with Miyamoto the GameCube was always purely focused on off-line content. It wasn’t until the X-Box Live's type of framework proved itself that they could impliment their store. And Internet speeds and availability are exponentially greater now, giving the service a wider avenue for profit.

Back when I tried out my first emulators...

Geez, another anti-emulation emulator? I wonder what we’d hear while you’re playing...

I’m such a bad boy. Destroy them all! What I’m doing is so wrong! Speed Up. I need to be punished. Multiple.

[Ganelon]

Unfortunately, I've not tried LOT on Magic Engine before nor have I used YAME. I didn't need to since I owned the TG version. If you're wondering what types of minor Magic Engine glitches I'm talking about, one instance involves the Konami logo not fading properly in Dracula X ROB. Not a big deal but still noticeably shows emulation imperfections. I haven't performed any timing experiments but I'd be willing to bet there's slight speed inaccuracies as well.

No consent is given by the copyright holders in the examples I used, either.

You just don't get digital copyrights, do you? Borrowing a physical copy of a game is entirely different from storing the code for a game where you don't own the code. That's why you can borrow DVDs and books from libraries but can't burn the DVDs or copy the books. One is legal, the other isn't.

In some other countries such as 90s Japan, selling used software was illegal as well. If we were living there/then, I'd feel the same way about that as well. You can argue all you want for how the situations are similar enough that you should be allowed to download all you want. That's moot though since as I said, I'm not here to question whether the law is right or wrong. I'm just here to say that you're breaking it. "But then why is this sorta similar thing legal?" isn't a valid response.

No one's talking about downloading recent software, which is pretty clear-cut (though still not stealing). Right now the law doesn't understand the difference between downloading an ap that just hit retail and downloading Recca. Do you think there's a difference?

Nope, there's not. So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're okay with pirating any software you can then?

There was no viable means for Nintendo to set up the VC until the Wii. Going by the interviews with Miyamoto the GameCube was always purely focused on off-line content.

Nintendo already had B&M ROM burning facilities in the late 90s in Japan as I mentioned. It would've been easy to incorporate it into the GC in a version of that form (for Japan) and it would've been easy for Sony to have taken the plunge long before when they offered online access.

The fact that nobody has embraced it entirely until the Wii, when emulation has been at a relative standstill for years and even though the means to do so has been possible for years now, is to me an indicator that Nintendo simply made a good timely decision to incorporate past products, not one fueled by an explosion in the popularity of emulation as you believe.

Geez, another anti-emulation emulator? I wonder what we’d hear while you’re playing..

What you did 10 years ago doesn't define who you are now. I haven't emulated a game I don't already own in quite some time. To be honest, I couldn't care less about you pirating, hence why I didn't harp at you in any way after your first post. I just don't like to see people defending their own piracy with nonsense. Man up and accept it.

Yeah, I've downloaded in the past. Except I'm not someone who would bring up and advocate emulation for a game, esp. one as readily purchasable as LOT. That's how you got into this mess in the first place.

I also wouldn't act like a hypocrite pretending I'm doing an okay thing and then try to defend my actions but arguing against the law and how my actions "seem to make sense." That's why you're still in this whole argument.

I'd just say I would acknowledge that I'm breaking the law, just don't care to be honest, and move on as I had just said. Nobody could say anything against you then. But instead, you felt arguing some more about why laws are the way they are would do the trick. Are you seriously trying to claim you're doing a legal and/or moral thing?

[louisg]

So it doesn't have that sound effect vs. music volume trouble that Gate of Thunder has on the Wii?

The balance sounds fine to me. I play through a stereo TV (nothing flash) and I didn't notice one overpower the other.

I have the Gates of Thunder original disc and the sound effects do seem to drown out the music. It's the US 3-in-1 release; I don't know if that might be different from the other releases.

It's really cool that LoT is now on VC and that more people will have a chance to play it.. that game is great!

[Augemitbutter]

not a big fan of medicore ports of classic games, selling for way too much money, considering i cant put them in my collection or sell them on.

no thanks.-

[zubiac]

What most people here don't seem to get is that at least 50%(I guess they are far more) of Wii gamers never heard about emulation before.
So for these people the VC service of the Wii is a great opportunity to play these "old" games.
I have several friends who are console gamers since years and have a Wii with dozens of VC games. They never heard about the possibility of playing old console games for free on PC. Why? Well, because they simply didn't care about it. The Wii's VC service is easy(no emulator to set up) to use and people can play the VC games on their couch in the living room.

and I don't think the games are overpriced at all(exept NES games).
Emulation is good too IMO. Nintendo's SNES emulator for Wii i.e. is the only emulator(PC emus included) that can emulate the SNES soundchip perfectly. Just compare Super Castlevania 4 on Wii with any PC snes emu.

[louisg]

Nintendo's SNES emulator for Wii i.e. is the only emulator(PC emus included) that can emulate the SNES soundchip perfectly. Just compare Super Castlevania 4 on Wii with any PC snes emu.

I haven't tried Wii's emulation, but that'd be a feat! I'm not sure exactly what the SNES hardware does, but a lot of emulators don't quite sound correct. Maybe some hard-to-reproduce filter?

[zubiac]

Nintendo's SNES emulator for Wii i.e. is the only emulator(PC emus included) that can emulate the SNES soundchip perfectly. Just compare Super Castlevania 4 on Wii with any PC snes emu.

I haven't tried Wii's emulation, but that'd be a feat! I'm not sure exactly what the SNES hardware does, but a lot of emulators don't quite sound correct. Maybe some hard-to-reproduce filter?

I guess it's the SNES soundchip which is a beast to emulate.
The sound emulation of the PC Snes emus isn't good at all. especialy the bass is horrible compared to the real SNES. and this is where the Wii emu shines.

[elvis]

I guess it's the SNES soundchip which is a beast to emulate.
The sound emulation of the PC Snes emus isn't good at all. especialy the bass is horrible compared to the real SNES. and this is where the Wii emu shines.

The SNES's sound chip is trivial to emulate. The problem comes with the fact that between the SNES's sound chip and your ear where a series of analogue low-pass filters that are simply impossible to emulate (no analogue circuitry will ever be properly emulated via digital means).

Some SNES emulators do a variety of post audio filtering, but none of them are ever 100% right.

I haven't yet purchased any SNES games via WiiVC, but I'm keen to grab one or two just to test the sound. Konami games were notorious for their audio sucking big time through emulators. Maybe this will be my cue to finally buy a legit copy of Axelay.

I don't see what the rational is for saying that's sometimes ethical and sometimes bad bad bad, unless you're taking the stance that "Congress is infallible, everything legal is right and everything illegal is wrong."

Sadly there are far too many people who believe just that. The idea of questioning the law and lobbying/voting to change it is an utterly foreign concept to some.

I remind everyone that once upon a time it was legal to beat your wife and illegal to drink beer. Obviously enough people disagreed to have the laws changed to reflect what the people actually believed. The notion of copyright was conceived in an era when zero-dollar reproduction of the written word was not possible. Then along came the printing press, and it turned the world on it's head.

Even today we have all sorts of issues. When you download a ROM, even legally, it's cached on dozens of proxy servers between you and the server you download it from. Is every network administrator responsible for said proxy servers now a thief for making a digital copy?

The current copyright laws are outdated, and no longer apply to the digital medium. I am 100% for seeing artists and programmers paid for their hard work. But that doesn't mean I need to agree with the archaic legal definitions of copyright forced upon me today.

I'm buying Wii VC games because I think it's a step in the right direction. I am vehemently against DRM. But for the short term, I will pay for these emulated games while my choices are limited. When (and I do mean "when", and not "if") the day comes where there are pay-for sources of emulation/ROMs that are not infected by DRM, those people will get my money instead. You only need to look at the music biz to see this whole thing. iTunes started the ball rolling, and 3 years later we're seeing legal sources of music downloads WITHOUT DRM. The same WILL happen to emulation and retro gaming. It is the natural evolution of things for people to find and choose freedom over restriction.

DJ Incompetent - Hard - 15,605,700 - All

Seconded. Just when I think I've gained a micron of shmupping skill, this forum gives me one mother of a reality check.