When did they go wrong: Cave edition.

[elvis]

Taito has so much money, how could they screw up so badly compared to a tiny company like Arika?

As someone who has worked for big bastard corporates, having loads of money in a company doesn't always mean that the deserving departments/projects always get their fair share of the cash.

To answer your question as to how they could screw it up so bad, the answer is the same as always: "bonehead management types".

[CIT]

I don't know anybody who plays the game that way.

YOS.K, Galford, and anyone else with a 15-20mil score. You have two choices for this game - drive the rank through the roof, get the infinite lives feature to kick in, and milk points like crazy for a very high score, or avoid all items and boss milking to keep the rank low and finish with a low score. There is no middle road when going for a 1CC.

The infinite lives trick is necessary for high scores. It's a feature of the game, not a glitch (this is stated in Arcadia magazine, among other places). It actually makes a lot of sense in the context of the game. Triggering this feature is just as hard, if not harder, than a normal Cave 1CC.

Okay, but the question remains, is this good game design?

What do you think?

[GaijinPunch]

Okay, but the question remains, is this good game design?

Rhetorical question is more like it.

[Frederik]

Besides, user-controlled slow movement is a feature added to danmaku to make it easier for the player to navigate through the bullet clouds. Raizing is nowhere near danmaku in terms of bullet count. If anything, Raizing is closer to old-school design (Toaplan, Seibu etc) than it is to today's style of bullet-infested shooting game.

I prefer getting used to ONE speed. And besides, the slowdown in, say, Dodonpachi is not without its drawbacks, because it´s tied to a different way of attacking. With type C-S you might want to slow down your speed on some occasions, and then you also have to switch to laser, which might be counterproductive certain situations. On the other hand, I find it highly annoying that it slows down so much on bossfights as I have to use the laser.

From my experience Raizing has a lot more emphasis on bullet hoarding and quick movement, whereas in Cave games you have to go THROUGH a lot more bullet clouds.

[EOJ]

Okay, but the question remains, is this good game design?

What do you think?

It's a very interesting, very unique, very creative, and extremely challenging game design.

Whether it's "good" or not is up to the individual player to decide, just like any other game. I don't think it's a decision that can be properly made after having played it for only a couple dozen credits, however. It took me a LONG time to really understand the game and form an educated opinion. Months of play, in fact.

I think it's a very, very frustrating game due to its difficulty. It's one of the hardest games I've ever played. But there is something about it that keeps me coming back to play, despite the frustration. If a game can do that, it's fairly good in my book. I play it and enjoy it more than Ibara, but I still prefer the rest of the Cave games released in the last 4-5 years.

[Radiant]

I think it's a very, very frustrating game due to its difficulty. It's one of the hardest games I've ever played. But there is something about it that keeps me coming back to play, despite the frustration. If a game can do that, it's fairly good in my book.

same here...PS is one of my most played cave games....i love it and i hate it...it really has a mystic touch

[jpj]

i like it, and there are lots modes to mess about with

it's about as unconventional as garegga was in 1996, with it's 'bombing is good' and 'dying makes the game easier' design elements.

it is too tough though

[Twiddle]

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

There is a practice mode on the PCB just for this...so yes its an intended part of the game. As I stated previously, it may not be to everyone's liking.

Well uh there's the part where the game crashes if you die too much

I mean if that was the bug they could have fixed just that part and not remove the infinite lives part entirely

[EOJ]

Well uh there's the part where the game crashes if you die too much

Yes, but this only happens in one spot in Stage 6. It happens in score attack mode as well.

I mean if that was the bug they could have fixed just that part and not remove the infinite lives part entirely

The bug-fixed PCB does just fix that one part. From what I have read, the infinite lives feature remains as-is.

[jpj]

the game doesn't crash if you die too much

it crashes on the final wave of enemies on stage 6 where enemies try to kamikaze into you from 360 degrees just before the boss. it happens about 1 in every 100 runs.

also, score attack mode is awesome. and the level itself, to me, is designed very well

[spadgy]

Damn now I'm interested in playing Pink Sweets.

Me too - never knew all this about PS stuff with the intentional 'bug'. I meant feature! Too many damn shmups to play!

Actually - scrap that moaning. I'm not going to complain about the amount being made. That would really be dumb!

[Frederik]

It sounds like Yagawa had a sort of post-modern mood when designing this...the "die while extending" trick is already a fine play *with* the basic notions of game design, but a bug meant to be the hardest gameplay mechanic of the game? Not my cup of tea, but congrats the creativity of Yagawa-san

It sounds like this is the most esoteric scoring mechanic outside of certain doujin games. "Quick! Increase the Earth and Mother counter while scraping bullets to keep the Faith meter from dropping while collecting mana stones!"

[Acid King]

This is the first I've seen the infinite lives bit in Pink Sweets referred to as anything but a bug. Sounds pretty interesting, almost as convoluted as Bakraid.

[Zebra Airforce]

Next Yagawa will make a game where you can only score during certain days of the week and at certain temperatures.

Hardcore players will play every fifth wednesday inside of a refridgerator unit, and only with green ball top + purple buttons (to maximize the garlic bonus).

[moozooh]

I have more unique and creative and challenging game design ideas!

1) Taking any item instantly kills you. Taking a 1-up item automatically gameovers your session. When destroying an enemy, the explosion and any debris it leaves behind kill you.

2) Shooting decreases your score. Any enemy that remains on screen decreases your score. Enemies don't leave the screen until you kill them. The only thing that raises your score is dying. Extends are given automatically after each death. Bombs are given for free, and are the main weapon in the game. Each bomb has a five second effect lag.

3) To kill each boss, destroy his wings, flaps, engines, turrets, windshield, randomly generated popcorn enemies, regenerating turrets, regenerating windshields, its pilot, the mom of the pilot, and survive an even stronger attack after that.

4) The final boss must shoot a pattern that has one blind spot distributed randomly across the entire screen. The only way to kill it is to pray a random glitch will overflow its energy bar to a negative value.

Clearly, Yagawa has nothing on me.

[Frederik]