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 Post subject: Gigawing isn't all its cracked up to be.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:19 pm 


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I have to be honest here.. i've had Gigawing 1 and 2 for a while now, and even went far enough as to record some of my sessions, but i really do hate the game to death. Its kind of a love hate relationship i guess.

Gigawing's scoring system and bullet patters dont make sense to me as a shooter. I can see how Capcom was going for something slightly different in scoring and dodging, but good god man.. nobody can dodge those bullets!! Its not even L33T.. its just dumb....making you rely on your Reflect Laser/Barrier. In which case wtf is the point of ever using your Uber 7331 dodging skills that you've honed in on over the course of hundreds of shooters to avoid the barrage of bullets, just to bust out your Reflect Barrier to avoid everything and catch those points!.WTF is the fun in that?.. If you've played it, you'll quickly realize that most of the bullet patters are impossible to dodge, literally impossible. Capcom must have made it this way on purpose, because it makes good use of the Reflect Laser/Barrier giving a hand in the scoring system.

On the flip side of course you are forced to doge enemy bullets just like any other shooter, but the ones that are possible to dodge dont really make it that challanging. To me when you waste all of your skill dodging largely seperated pink bullets and smashing through all of the rest with your Reflect Laser/Barrier, it just seems like a waste!!!! I feel like a Noob in any other Vert shooter using the Super Bombzor when things get too tough.

When i play a shmup, i want to dodge bullets, i want to feel great when i intricately maneuver through a screen full of bullets and not breaking my concentration or losing a life/Credit. Gigawing's premise to me just seems like a big cop out. Your not really dodging anything, and to the onlooker who has never played watching someone play, might think it was a MANIC CRAZY HOLY HELL bullet fest like Pachi or Feveron, but when in reality its just a huge scoring system and a cop out Bomb!.. dam i hate that!!!!!...

I usually find myself confused and torn playing Gigawing 1 and 2, still not accepting the fact that i cant logically find a way through the bullets, then i realize there just isn't a way, and you have to push through with a Bomb. Whats the point of bullets in the first place. Sure you can say games like Ikaruge use something similar, with the light and dark side, but at least you still have to use skill to dodge.

What do you guys think... Sorry i know allot of you might like this game.. just stating a frustration i have with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:34 pm 


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You do realize Capcom didn't make these games right? :?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:36 pm 


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first of all, the scoring system is one of the best concepts ever. There is a reward for staying alive long, there is one for collecting medals, and both get multiplied, so you can focus on survival OR scoring, both ways will increase your score, but if you manage to pull of both at once, your score will get THAT MUCH higher.
Concerning your criticism that the game is too easy, or that the shield makes dodging pointless: try not shooting for a change. As you probably know, all reflected bullets become medals, so if you manage to kill all enemies by reflected bullets instead of your weapon, your score will increase drastically. Also, you will find that the game is a lot harder, with a lot more bullets to dodge in between using shields.
The thing to learn in Gigawing, obviously, is timing the shield use in order to maximize points and/or to survive. Often there are patterns which are hard to dodge, yet consisting of only a few bullets, with easier patterns of many bullets following. Reflecting the first will make survival easy, while reflecting the second is better for your score.
Oh, and it´s definitely not like most bullet patterns are impossible to dodge. There are a few bullet clusters which can´t be dodged, but they are parts of bigger patterns, the perimeter of which can be dodged. Dodging is not as easy as in Cave games, as the hitzone is much larger, but that was necessary to balance out the shield.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:36 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:54 pm 


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I used to hate GigaWing 2 and Mars Matrix because of the similar reasons you had, but I've learned to love it by trial and error.

It's not a game that everyone will fall in love like Ikaruga... This shit's for hardcore shmuppers. (Which I'm not...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:04 pm 


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Whoo boy. Wait till Rob sees this...lol
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:09 pm 


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Optimus, you seem to be complaining that Gigawing is not similar enough to other shooters where dodging is the main concern. Gigawing doesn't claim to be part of any class of games, and it doesn't owe it to anyone to be LIKE any other game at all. If you're not comfortable calling it a shooter-dodger, then call it a shooter-reflector and it fits that mold perfectly. There's nothing wrong with originality and variation.

Anyway, I've been really getting into this game lately in preparation for G.G., and I'm getting a lot better at it. I think it's really fun and intense. :D

I've never played GW2 though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:31 pm 



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I can sort of relate to what you're saying, I used to play gigawing in an arcade, and I never really was into it because of the reasons you're pointing out.
In general I like playing games that I know just rely on how well I can dodge bullets and shoot stuff, none of the chaining / combo / reflecting / etc... but It's good for scoring when it isn't a direct feature that you must use all the time.
Maybe if I get tired of the plain shooter gameplay I will start enjoying the more recent games which have the additional gameplay requirements.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:37 pm 


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Dylan1CC wrote:
Whoo boy. Wait till Rob sees this...lol

Haha. This reads like almost every complaint I've seen about these games, like http://www.gamecritics.com/review/gigawing2/main.php

Quote:
Theres nothing wrong with being required to pull off some fast-paced, evasive maneuvers, but Giga Wing 2 takes it to such an utterly insane level that its a joke. The enemy fire is so thick, so heartless and so unavoidable that its literally impossible to make it through a single stage unscathed. I cant even begin to describe how many projectiles are fired onscreen at once, and forget about using any kind of skill to dodge them. Looking at some of the patterns of fire, I doubt its even possible to successfully evade the amount of flak aimed in your general direction. Without trying to sound like a broken record, no amount of manual dexterity whatsoever is going to get you through this one.

It's always "literally impossible." :cry:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:47 am 


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It's best to think of the Reflect Force as a weapon rather than a defensive mechanism. I see it as somewhat like 19XX's charge shot, only powered by reflected enemy fire. If you don't allow enough time (about a second) for the RF to charge up, you will eat the bullets you intended to kick away.

You've got a large plane with a small group of tanks standing between you and it. The plane shoots at you and the bullets pass over the tanks- soon after, you send the bullets back to take out the tanks and damage the plane.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:49 am 


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Pish-posh!

It's all about practice....

I just busted out GW2 last night and got much further than I had before. Parts of the game that I thought were impassable, except by reflect barrier or bomb, were actually quite manageable. It's not so much about dodging as it's about "waltzing" with the bullets.

Still, to each their own, I suppose. *shrugs*


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:54 am 


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Someone should break out the Giga Wing 2 0-point replay and force that reviewer to watch it...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:05 am 


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ArrogantBastard wrote:
It's not a game that everyone will fall in love like Ikaruga... This shit's for hardcore shmuppers.

And Ikaruga's not aimed at hardcore shmuppers? ;)
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:55 am 



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Rob wrote:
Dylan1CC wrote:
Whoo boy. Wait till Rob sees this...lol

Haha. This reads like almost every complaint I've seen about these games, like http://www.gamecritics.com/review/gigawing2/main.php

Quote:
Theres nothing wrong with being required to pull off some fast-paced, evasive maneuvers, but Giga Wing 2 takes it to such an utterly insane level that its a joke. The enemy fire is so thick, so heartless and so unavoidable that its literally impossible to make it through a single stage unscathed. I cant even begin to describe how many projectiles are fired onscreen at once, and forget about using any kind of skill to dodge them. Looking at some of the patterns of fire, I doubt its even possible to successfully evade the amount of flak aimed in your general direction. Without trying to sound like a broken record, no amount of manual dexterity whatsoever is going to get you through this one.

It's always "literally impossible." :cry:


Hey, that's not so bad, I've read reviews saying it was too easy. If I didn't know perfectly well what was coming next, I'd have thought they must either be liars or gaming gods. Of course I was right about what came next; it was too easy because there were unlimited credits. It'd be annoying, but understandable, coming from amateurs, but when you see people who are paid to review games writing shit like that, it's saddening :(

Anyway, I love Giga Wing. Partially because it got me back into shmups after a long time of having not played any, and partially because it's just a damn fun game. And a small part because any DC shmup is great automatically because it's the only console I have an arcade stick for :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:30 am 


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I haven't played Giga Wing 2, but I love Mars Matrix, and from what I gather the concept is similar. But, I don't like every shmup I play either...so don't waste your time getting good at one that doesn't interest you.

I love that review:
Quote:
If you cant convince a five-year old kid who loves videogames to play, you know that cant be good.


LOL!

Quote:
The game has no actual skill required and isnt fun at all, it merely throws 10 million projectiles at you in a spastic effort at generating some excitement.
Oh, good, no actual skill required...I guess that's why he thinks it is literally impossible to beat any given level without dying. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:44 am 


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I'm not the biggest fan of GW and mars matrix, but mainly because I don't like verts with a horizonal aspect ratio (other than compile stuff for some reason), but the relflect barrier and gravity hole bomb is takumi's gimmick. Gigawing and mars matrix wouldn't be as popular without them. Of course there are parts of the game where you have to use them, not using the reflect would be like playing ikaruga without changing colors. A big part of the game is learning which bullet spams are truly impassable, and using them to your advantage (points).

From a certain perspective I can see why you don't like it, because some sections are impossible without the reflect barrier, so the game isn't adhering to the unwritten rules for shmups over the years, like you should never have to use the screen clearing bomb/gimmick.

I guess its worthy to add that th reflect barrier makes for some very cool multiplayer tactics as well, like how the reflect of one player leaves a "shadow" in the bullets where other players can hide.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:58 am 


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Think of the reflect shield as a "blocking" technique.
PLay Street Fighter without blocking, and tell me how far you get.

Also, since its so "easy", tell me, what's your 1CC high score?

Its all about memorization of patterns. YES, even knowing when its best to use the reflect force is pattern based. This ain't no gimmick...its the way Takumi designed it. I personally thought they did a very good job;GigaWing being one of my all time favorite shmups.

Take it for what it is...and not what you expect it to be, perhaps you might find enjoyment out of it then.
Oh, and no, its not impossible. Well maybe if you never use the reflect force or bomb once in a while...

BTW: Welcome to the forums.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:15 am 


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waiting until there's enough bullets to get the gem explosions...I dunno what the term for that is, but it's the reason I prefer gigawing 2 to the first. fun gameplay element right there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:40 am 


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^Volcanoes?
Anyway, they always looked more like hundreds of little coffins falling from the heavens to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:27 am 


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^^ Man I'll never get tired of watching the exploding volcanoes.

The seconds between reflecting and for the shield to charge back up are crucial, and it's where the dodging skills come in. As mentioned, the RF/RL is much an offensive as a defensive weapon.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:50 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
ArrogantBastard wrote:
It's not a game that everyone will fall in love like Ikaruga... This shit's for hardcore shmuppers.

And Ikaruga's not aimed at hardcore shmuppers? ;)


Exactly..and I for one, never fell in love with Ikaruga..I like it just fine, but I never thought it was the 2nd coming. Gigawing 1+2 still are in my all time favorites, they pretty much make you learn to play shooters in a way you never did before.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:07 am 


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the reason I don´t like volcanoes is that it doesn´t matter where you are on the screen, you will always collect a similar amount of medals. Also, if I remember correctly, there are no bullets on screen during volcanoes, immediately after you were invincible due to the shield. That´s a little too much time without dodging for my taste. While the shield is active, you can at least steer a little to reflect as many bullets as possible, but during a volcanoe you can just as well take your hands off the joystick.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:39 am 


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yo..

I like em, but i like gw2 coz i'm a succker for the gfx.. :lol:
Anyway like everyone else says, its a matter of taste,
they tried to do something different with gw and i'm glad thay did,
I like to have a range of game styles to play. ddp is a real full on blast where ikaruga is like an IQ test. GW is sort of inbetween.
Anyway, Optimus didnt really say he hated it 100% just that it frustrated him a bit.. but thats coz hes trying to approach it in the style of a traditional manic shooter style. I wouldnt play ICO like mario64..
Hey, do what kiken says and play without bombs, it makes it really punishing then! I agree that the bomb/force cycle can get a bit annoying.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:24 am 


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With his fingers in his ears and in-between lots's of 'La L Laa Laaa" sounds, Leeram says; " you don't like the Gigawings? I'm not listening, Can't hear you "

:-)

Leeram


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 Post subject: -
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:09 pm 


"Gigawing isn't all its cracked up to be"

Yes it is, it's so good I bought it twice - once on Japanese import, and again very very cheap on PAL UK release.


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 Post subject: Wellz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:37 pm 


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Hearing this really makes me want to get back into the game. The farthest I got was the last boss on one credit. For some reason Mars Matrix doesn't work for me, I guess it may be due to the one button system(The entire lack of bombs could be another factor as well :oops: ). Maybe once I play the game again I'll quit using bombs. Then when I get far enough I'll be like "Wait I have bombs too?" then proceed to 1CC the game constantly.

Great series though, shame apparently Gigawing Generations isn't up to snuff. Nothing really beats running head on into a huge mass of bullets with the reflect on.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:20 pm 


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Leeram wrote:
With his fingers in his ears and in-between lots's of 'La L Laa Laaa" sounds, Leeram says; " you don't like the Gigawings? I'm not listening, Can't hear you "

:-)

Leeram


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:32 pm 


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Ok first of all, i have to admit that i delved head first into the negative aspects and quick frustration of my personal experience, and didn't bother to explain my interest in the game. Even though i don't prefer its type, i greatly appreciate it, and still have a Love - Hate relationship.

Second i said Capcom.. shame on me yes.. .For all any of you know i could have looked it up, but i always was under the impression Takumi and Capcom both had a hand... Capcom only published?.. Guess i should look that up... anyway...

Lastly.. everyone has their own opinion, and i'm not scared to knock your favorite shooters.. (cry babies) _ haha j/k.....

I guess i fall into wanting to keep the same grena/class type when i'm plaing a shooter, and i always look at bullet patterns and have to know if it is possible or impossible, because then why bother, just go around. Even though when going for high score, you really do have to memorize allot, i can usually instinctively weave my way through a barage of bullets with no clear path and make my way out, but then again i think most of you in here could as well.


So anyway.. i'm going to give it another try, and use the "dont shoot" advice.. even though it seems sacriligious to me LOL.. Maybe then i can try to appreciate this game for what it is and not for what it should be. And thats the exact reason why i came down so hard on it, i wanted some honest opinoins to why i should play.

Ok so someone tell me... how the f'ing hell in hell could anyone get past GIGAWING.. 2 's final Boss (with mutipal forms) w/out using 15 credits.. OMG.. i almost crapped myself trying to figure out if there was a pattern, or if it was just to look pretty.

raiden wrote:
first of all, the scoring system is one of the best concepts ever. There is a reward for staying alive long, there is one for collecting medals, and both get multiplied, so you can focus on survival OR scoring, both ways will increase your score, but if you manage to pull of both at once, your score will get THAT MUCH higher.
Concerning your criticism that the game is too easy, or that the shield makes dodging pointless: try not shooting for a change. As you probably know, all reflected bullets become medals, so if you manage to kill all enemies by reflected bullets instead of your weapon, your score will increase drastically. Also, you will find that the game is a lot harder, with a lot more bullets to dodge in between using shields.
The thing to learn in Gigawing, obviously, is timing the shield use in order to maximize points and/or to survive. Often there are patterns which are hard to dodge, yet consisting of only a few bullets, with easier patterns of many bullets following. Reflecting the first will make survival easy, while reflecting the second is better for your score.
Oh, and it´s definitely not like most bullet patterns are impossible to dodge. There are a few bullet clusters which can´t be dodged, but they are parts of bigger patterns, the perimeter of which can be dodged. Dodging is not as easy as in Cave games, as the hitzone is much larger, but that was necessary to balance out the shield.


sffan wrote:
Optimus, you seem to be complaining that Gigawing is not similar enough to other shooters where dodging is the main concern. Gigawing doesn't claim to be part of any class of games, and it doesn't owe it to anyone to be LIKE any other game at all. If you're not comfortable calling it a shooter-dodger, then call it a shooter-reflector and it fits that mold perfectly. There's nothing wrong with originality and variation.

Anyway, I've been really getting into this game lately in preparation for G.G., and I'm getting a lot better at it. I think it's really fun and intense. :D

I've never played GW2 though.


very good point.. I guess i can't complain that Gigawing isn't the same cookie cutter that all other shmups are, and i'm glad that there are different offerings.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:30 pm 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
ArrogantBastard wrote:
It's not a game that everyone will fall in love like Ikaruga... This shit's for hardcore shmuppers.

And Ikaruga's not aimed at hardcore shmuppers? ;)


lol :P


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:41 pm 


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raiden wrote:
the reason I don´t like volcanoes is that it doesn´t matter where you are on the screen, you will always collect a similar amount of medals.

How do you figure? The difference in medal count can be massive depending on timing and location. There are a lot of medals to potentially miss.

Quote:
While the shield is active, you can at least steer a little to reflect as many bullets as possible, but during a volcanoe you can just as well take your hands off the joystick.

Nope, unless you're trying to miss the medals. The time the bullets are cleared is the instant the volcanoe is triggered, so there can be more bullets on the screen immediately. It's hardly different from GW1, so this seems like stretching.


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