Cave Festival 2006 : end of the year party in Akihabara!

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:23 pm

...or maybe top players are credit feeding to give Cave more "credit".
(*rimshot*)

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:26 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:...or maybe top players are credit feeding to give Cave more "credit".
(*rimshot*)

Lucky for you it's impossible to throw a piece of food at someone through the internet.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:59 pm

^FrederikJurk

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:40 am

That 150K the first month is...I dunno what it is.

What's the typical price/credit for new games?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:43 am

100 yen for new releases nearly all of the time.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:04 am

Twiddle wrote:100 yen for new releases nearly all of the time.

Plenty of 50 yen ones though... and I think he went to a 50 yen arcade. K.K definitely did. Said he'd pop in a 5000 yen bill, fill up a cup w/ 50 yen coins all slot machine style and start playing.

Squirrel · Post by **Squirrel** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:48 am

I wish I had found you guys when I was in japan for two years in the Air Force. I went to Akihabara quite a few times, and that's where I got my shuttle PC at, not to mention, I quite frequently went to Super Potato.

I want to go...

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:04 am

FrederikJurk wrote:So much for the "Japanese players never continue, ever" attitude (if you know what I am referring to).

GaijinPunch wrote:It had been established before, but if anyone wanted more proof, there it is.

I swear to god, man, sometimes I think there's something inherently evil in the internet that turns decent people into assholes. Because I know both of you are nice guys, and am therefore at a loss to explain why you would want to post snarky remarks at my expense, or throw (poorly-aimed) barbs in my general direction.

I've already answered this criticism of my article. Here's the relevant quote from the thread:

TWE wrote:-The most glaring flaw of the whole article is your claim that Japanese gamers never credit feed, for example you state “To understand the essence of arcade gaming you must never continue. Like, ever.” I am sorry to tell you, but this is completely untrue. Many of the top scorers in Japan have stated they sometimes credit feed to practice new strats on later levels

Yeah, someone brought this up already in another forum. Here's my reply to him:

me wrote: Yeah, right. In fact, those who are going for world records in platformers/shooters/run & guns et al. use continues IN A PARTICULAR WAY when practising at home in order to master the game faster, or they use save states to practice repeatedly certain difficult points in their runs, and they watch superplay DVDs to pick up tips from the best of the best, and read strategy guides instead of trying to figure out everything for themselves -- and in so doing they get better faster of course, but they also turn these games TOO MUCH into sports...

...and something is lost in the processs.

I am not saying it's bad. I've done it myself with certain games -- with those in which I've had a desire to compete at a world-record level. A couple of games at the most.

The rest, though, I take great care not to spoil for myself

But I didn't want to include all the above in the article so as not to confuse the issue too much. Continuing kills these games and that's the end of the story. For the handful of dedicated people who are shooting for world records this is different, but they already know this even better than I do, and anyway these are not the guys I am trying to reach with this piece.

I mean, Jesus.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:24 am

Yeah, exactly. There is a certain magic that you only feel the first few times you play a game. When you refrain from credit feeding to the end of the game, it prolongs that magic. Each time you reach a new stage, or just get a little bit farther in the one you're stuck on, you recieve a huge rush of adrenaline. For all I know, SWY enjoyed credit feeding all that time, but I'm not the kind of person who can enjoy playing a game that way.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:41 am

I most frequently drop in a second credit when I have a run so bad I don't even make it to the parts I need practice on the most. Like say I die early-ish on in Stage 5 of Dodonpachi, I'll hit that select button again and continue on so I can practice that evil nasty part with the popcorn enemies coming from both sides and the big blue rectangular turrets in the middle. That part never fails to take at least one life from me =(

Note: After the 1-loop clear, I've sworn off bombing unless I've got a really great score (at least... great relative to my own scores, you bastards) going for that run.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:24 am

icycalm wrote: I swear to god, man, sometimes I think there's something inherently evil in the internet that turns decent people into assholes. Because I know both of you are nice guys, and am therefore at a loss to explain why you would want to post snarky remarks at my expense, or throw (poorly-aimed) barbs in my general direction.

Going to have to lol at that one. If you got hit by one of my remarks, it's b/c you jumped in the way. I didn't get that far in your article (not b/c it wasn't good...just a timing issue) so was definitely not insulting you. There are plenty of places to read about Japanese players credit feeding. The main reason many don't is b/c of the queue.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:48 am

GaijinPunch wrote:There are plenty of places to read about Japanese players credit feeding.

Indeed. Here's a post I made to clear the air on the subject:

http://danmakudreams.blogspot.com/2007/ ... th-in.html

Revel in the truth!

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 am

If anything, people should come away from this with a different perspective.

There's always these 'japanese are really good at these games in comparison to us/westerners blah blah etc'

Look at those first month cost numbers! Yusemi, considered one of the better players, dropped THREE THOUSAND credits into a machine in a month. (assuming 50 yen arcade, of course) Even with credit feeding to the end of stage 5, that still represents an absolute enormous amount of time put into the game. Even at the lower costs quoted by the other players that's still quite a bit of time.

The secret to good scores is staring you in the face. Play. Lots. Play One Game Lots.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:19 am

zakk wrote:
The secret to good scores is staring you in the face. Play. Lots. Play One Game Lots.

Very true. There have been some amazing scores done by Westerners who did just that. Just look at the Ikaruga scoreboards.

I have read that SWY, when not playing the game, spends most of his free time drawing stage diagrams and pondering new approaches to each level. So basically he lives and breathes shooters all day long. I don't know how he'd find the time to have a job or go to school. Maybe he has a sponsor?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:22 am

This shouldn't be that big of a shocker, should it? When people were throwing their Twinbee Yahoo times around, I felt a lot better. I realized everyone w/ a sick score (w/ the exception for Sikraiken maybe) played about twice as much. I'm sure even if I wasn't a father, I'd have something else in the way.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:32 am

GaijinPunch wrote:This shouldn't be that big of a shocker, should it? When people were throwing their Twinbee Yahoo times around, I felt a lot better. I realized everyone w/ a sick score (w/ the exception for Sikraiken maybe) played about twice as much. I'm sure even if I wasn't a father, I'd have something else in the way.

Well, no it shouldn't be a big shocker. I just don't think many people comprehend the magnitude of 'play lots' that typically happens. These guys have an absolute ton of playtime invested over the years, and that all translates into experience that's useful no matter what game you're playing.

Granted, I don't think if someone puts a bunch of time into a game they're going to automatically hit world record level. As I said, these guys have years of serious play experience under their belt, so some things just come to them quicker. However, your time will be rewarded with an increase in skill, unless you just throw yourself against a wall with no rational thought as to how to break through to the next level.

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:10 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Going to have to lol at that one. If you got hit by one of my remarks, it's b/c you jumped in the way. I didn't get that far in your article (not b/c it wasn't good...just a timing issue) so was definitely not insulting you. There are plenty of places to read about Japanese players credit feeding. The main reason many don't is b/c of the queue.

I got in the way of what? Anally-retentive factoid nitpicking? In fact I even state clearly in the article that I HAVE seen people creditfeed on two separate occasions. In three years.

And obviously people here are too lazy to even read the replies to their barbs, so what the fuck. I might as well stop replying to them and go do something useful.

Like write another article, for instance. Perhaps on the subject that playing too many videogames ruins one's reading comprehension skills. (Hi TWE!)

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:21 am

I got in the way of what? Anally-retentive factoid nitpicking? In fact I even state clearly in the article that I HAVE seen people creditfeed on two separate occasions. In three years.

No. Reread my post. All this drama is self-inflicted. I didn't have any single person in mind when I made that comment. In fact, if I ever make any derogatory comment I'm pretty obvious about who it's directed towards. It wasn't meant to undermine you or your article.

And am I anal-retentively picking facts? I just conveyed what someone else said.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:22 am

icycalm wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:Going to have to lol at that one. If you got hit by one of my remarks, it's b/c you jumped in the way. I didn't get that far in your article (not b/c it wasn't good...just a timing issue) so was definitely not insulting you. There are plenty of places to read about Japanese players credit feeding. The main reason many don't is b/c of the queue.
I got in the way of what? Anally-retentive factoid nitpicking? In fact I even state clearly in the article that I HAVE seen people creditfeed on two separate occasions. In three years.

And obviously people here are too lazy to even read the replies to their barbs, so what the fuck. I might as well stop replying to them and go do something useful.

Like write another article, for instance. Perhaps on the subject that playing too many videogames ruins one's reading comprehension skills. (Hi TWE!)

I think he was saying that he never actually got to the point in the article where you discussed credit feeding (or lack thereof) therefore his comment really couldn't have been directed at you.

How's that bad reading comprehension combined with victim mentality working out for you?

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:25 am

zakk wrote:
icycalm wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:Going to have to lol at that one. If you got hit by one of my remarks, it's b/c you jumped in the way. I didn't get that far in your article (not b/c it wasn't good...just a timing issue) so was definitely not insulting you. There are plenty of places to read about Japanese players credit feeding. The main reason many don't is b/c of the queue.
I got in the way of what? Anally-retentive factoid nitpicking? In fact I even state clearly in the article that I HAVE seen people creditfeed on two separate occasions. In three years.

And obviously people here are too lazy to even read the replies to their barbs, so what the fuck. I might as well stop replying to them and go do something useful.

Like write another article, for instance. Perhaps on the subject that playing too many videogames ruins one's reading comprehension skills. (Hi TWE!)
I think he was saying that he never actually got to the point in the article where you discussed credit feeding (or lack thereof) therefore his comment really couldn't have been directed at you.

How's that bad reading comprehension combined with victim mentality working out for you?

Better than it is working out for you, apparently.

Just re-read Frederik Jurk's comment (which I quoted).

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:33 am

Please explain to me how my comment (which you quoted) was directed at you in any way, shape, or form.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:35 am

Oh my, lol.

Let's recap (!) here.

Someone makes what is most likely a snide remark regarding something you wrote in an article.

GP responds agreeing with him, but apparently has no idea this refers to you.

You quote BOTH of them, and basically call them assholes.

Then GP says 'hey, I wasn't referring to that, so any insult you took from me is all you'.

You then proceed to respond to that with more of whatever it is you respond with when you get like this.

After that we're sorta in hyperspace so I dunno.

In summary: GUY ON INTERNET

icycalm · Post by **icycalm** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:40 am

Here it is again:

FrederikJurk wrote:So much for the "Japanese players never continue, ever" attitude (if you know what I am referring to).

GaijinPunch wrote:It had been established before, but if anyone wanted more proof, there it is.

You obviously know exactly what he is referring to. Now to be fair, his comment is the barb, whereas yours is just a statement of fact, which I guess I read too much into. I should have known better. Sorry.

But there is no mistaking FrederikJurk's intention, nor the inanity of EOJ/TWE's self-congratulating, masturbatory replies/blog posts.

And zakk, you suck too, man.

In conclusion:

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:08 pm

You obviously know exactly what he is referring to.

Apparently I (the author of the offensive comment) am the only one that doesn't.

Again, prove to me my comment has anything to do with you, and you can have my house and everything in it.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:09 pm

Oh jeez, oh no. Yeah, I WAS referring to Icys article. However, thinking about it, I have say this: OF COURSE the game stays more exciting if you never credit-feed at all (which I do in most games, so it´s not that I say that bashing creditfeeding is wrong), but I just found it funny that japanese top players actually use creditfeeding, but in a very different way than we think of it here.

Usually we think of creditfeeding as "Let´s get over with this"-running through the game not paying attention to it at all and saying it sucks afterwards (or something). In this case, players that are seemingly under high pressure to get a high score desperately NEED to learn later patterns without needing to survive before them consistently. If you have all the time of the world, not continuing is the surefire way to really know he game in and out, and surely the more honorable, more satisfying way to play the game. And for the record, I never would have thought top players actually DO continue.

(EDIT: Which is pretty much the "not spoiling" part you mentioned.)

I wish my initial comment would have been more like "I am surprised top players actually continue to learn the game faster." Whether or not I agree to your standpoints, I like your site and your articles. So read this as an apology for beating a dead horse.

*backpedalling*

oxtsu · Post by **oxtsu** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:05 pm

Valgar wrote:The Stage 5 patterns looked the same, but Stage 1 for sure.

MrMonkeyMan wrote:Yeah, looks a lot like the loop's bullet patterns without any suicide bullets. Sure makes it look easy.

You also need to get really close to an enemy to get the 5 chips. It was pretty much always 1 or 2 chips unless the player was pointblanking. Did they take out 3 and 4 chips?

EDIT

Nevermind, I saw a 4 chip in one of those videos at least.

GaijinPunch wrote:Mihara mentioned something about this in the meaning. I was still trying to process all the other shit though.

Gold in them thar hills!

-thanks a ton, chronology updated-

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:08 pm

Mihara posted a blog of a lonely IKD either ready to, or just finishing signing everyone's gear.

http://mihara.sub.jp/top/blog/sb203/img ... C_0006.jpg

Fu · Post by Fu » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:42 pm

Where are the superplayers

?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:47 pm

Fu wrote:Where are the superplayers ?

They were in the next room. The talk show had finished. Mihara put IKD on the spot. They set up a little table in the next room over (where he's pictured) and had people line up and get shit signed.

Fu · Post by Fu » Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:42 pm

Thank you nevertheless. Otherwise there is this pagefrom a Famitsu, Clover-TAC is on but I don't know who (I hope it's not the last).