Psykio games - love/hate

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:00 am

Okay, so perhaps I'm not as crappy at Psikyo (sp) games than I thought. I just feel that their games ride that line between traditional shooters & manic. In other words, there are a TON of bullets on the screen sometimes, and they move a LOT faster than most in manic shooters. The combination of the two elements seems cheap to me. The thing is, I can't stop playing their games...it's like they have this magnetic effect. I plugged in Gunbird 2 yesterday and played for nearly an hour - got my butt handed to me every time, but I kept playing.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:09 am

Let me guess Mariah, you can't get pass the "press start" screen in a Psikyo game without using 3 credits so you resort to the infantile mentality of "if I suck at a game, it sucks". Congrats, for games that are so vanilla and archaic, how come you they whomp your ass so badly? Now before you refute the difficulty of the games, realize if you had half a mind about what you're talking about and had played one of their games for more than 5 minutes before turning it off in frustration, you'd know Psikyo has many diverse games. And in the ones that have similar appearances, there's an evolution in bullet patterns and gameplay that makes each one unique and worthwhile. Only someone that plays shooters seriously, however, could recognize such aspects.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:11 am

black mariah wrote: I haven't seen a forum with this little sense of humour... and I post on Slashdot.

Well I don't know how things are on the other forums you are on, but while I can't speak for Rob, I know I don't really like having folks tell me to lick their balls. I'm not sure if you have noticed, but thing are pretty chill here, a little less middle school than a lot of other boards. I think most of us want to keep it that way, so you might want to moderate yourself a bit--you know, a little less flippancy.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:24 am

FRO wrote:Okay, so perhaps I'm not as crappy at Psikyo (sp) games than I thought. I just feel that their games ride that line between traditional shooters & manic. In other words, there are a TON of bullets on the screen sometimes, and they move a LOT faster than most in manic shooters. The combination of the two elements seems cheap to me. The thing is, I can't stop playing their games...it's like they have this magnetic effect. I plugged in Gunbird 2 yesterday and played for nearly an hour - got my butt handed to me every time, but I kept playing.

To try to keep this thread on track. Yeah. I think this is part of what is amazing about psikyo is that on one hand, there games are not like Raiden or 194_ or any number of true old school shmups. But that said, it isn't like the train of thought that all came out of batsugun--which is to say Cave and its ilk. Psikyo is like some weird evolution from the pre batsugun era that took a totally different course. It is more like Twin Cobras on steroids with a little borrowing from the manic folks (though precious little). Really, when you get done looking the whole thing over, Psikyo games are wholly unique. To the untrained eye it might look like more of the same, but they are neither truly manic nor old school. Perhaps they might be understood by looking at the progressiong of technology. Psikyo is not car; it doesn't even run on fossil fuels, but it is the most modernistic, sci-fi horse and buggy you've ever seen--and that really deserves a sizable chunk of credit.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:42 am

Well, back to neutrality, I have an indifference-indifference relationship towards their games. Not one stimulates me yet none pushes me away.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:58 am

CMoon wrote:To try to keep this thread on track. Yeah. I think this is part of what is amazing about psikyo is that on one hand, there games are not like Raiden or 194_ or any number of true old school shmups. But that said, it isn't like the train of thought that all came out of batsugun--which is to say Cave and its ilk. Psikyo is like some weird evolution from the pre batsugun era that took a totally different course. It is more like Twin Cobras on steroids with a little borrowing from the manic folks (though precious little). Really, when you get done looking the whole thing over, Psikyo games are wholly unique. To the untrained eye it might look like more of the same, but they are neither truly manic nor old school. Perhaps they might be understood by looking at the progressiong of technology. Psikyo is not car; it doesn't even run on fossil fuels, but it is the most modernistic, sci-fi horse and buggy you've ever seen--and that really deserves a sizable chunk of credit.

You know, I've never thought of it that way. In a manner of speaking, Psikyo games ARE the grey area between twitch & manic shooters.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:28 am

I've warmed up to Psikyo more lately than I used to, though their style isn't a personal favorite of mine...while I do like the fact that just about all of their stuff has plenty of "personality" about it (Gunbird's anime-esque fantasy setting and characters; the cheesy, overblown WW2 stuff in Strikers; the feudal atmospherics in Sengoku Ace/Blade), as has been mentioned there is a lot of recycled stuff present in a lot of their games, especially the earlier ones, and that robs them of some surface appeal, in my view. On the gameplay front, I don't mind the relative simplicity of Psikyo's stuff, though the added gameplay bits in Gunbird 2 and Dragon Blaze in particular make them more interesting; the thing that I most tend to dislike about Psikyo is that its games are absolutely merciless and brazen credit munchers. I don't mean simply in the fact that they're challenging, but that the things have stuff obviously built into them that's meant to all but force players to hit a wall and have to insert another quarter again and again to get anywhere. In this sense I consider Psikyo's games closer to "memorizer" shmups (a la R-Type) than most tend to.

In general, I see clouds of bullets heading for me that could fit into a Cave product, but since this is Psikyo, my weapons aren't as powerful, my hitbox is a good deal larger, and powerups not only increase the rank but float only on the top half of the screen, so I have to take my pack o' handicaps and rush into the enemies' fire in order to grab that spare powerup or bomb. And once you hit a boss, it's all but impossible to survive some of the fast and wide-covering patterns tossed at you the first time you see them, unless you panic bomb (and learn nothing, meaning that once you run out of bombs you'll start dying again); you've just got to keep plugging away at the same areas again and again until you know exactly where you can move to in order to get out of that pattern and not have your hitbox nicked, not to mention which points you all but need to use a bomb at. On top of that, the first few stages, which vary in difficulty, are in random order, so even once you learn a stage decently, chances are you'll have to learn it again if you face it later in the rotation. To contrast it with Cave, in the former's case you pretty much know what to expect: the stages and difficulty come at you in a consistent order, and if you see a gap between bullets you can probably finagle your way through it. In Psikyo, success is partially dependent on the luck of the draw, and partially on how many times you've been killed before at that same exact spot.

If others prefer Psikyo's more "merciless" style then that's fine, more power to you, but such completely open and unapologetic "quarter munching" tactics just aren't appealing to me personally. Not that I dislike challenge, I just prefer other manners of being challenged.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:29 am

black mariah wrote:
TWITCHDOCTOR wrote: BTW: My post wasen't a joke, but with all this "Lick my Balls" type talk, well it triggered a bad memory.
Just remember... if you're pitching you aren't gay. You're just playing pretend.

Although that reply was probably better suited to the thread you're referring to.

I'm not sure what your getting at here. But considering what happend to me last Friday night, I figured if you're going to talk like a "homo-pervert" or act like one, well then you should meet my neighbor. Thats all.

"You meeting my neighbor" shit was a joke though, but I can't understand how you would think I'm gay because I said that.

This topic is starting to "get stupid"...so be warned.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:50 am

For your information Blacky, I'm 35 years old (read as mature) and I don't say shit/talk like that. Most people here at Shmups.com don't really say shit like that either...not unless you consider that freak MasterBaiter. Then again, that was years ago.
I for one would like to see those "Junior High Humor" type jokes kept to a minimum here.
Plus, I really don't see why you feel the need to be so offensive. I'm sure Cmoon and Rob are not sitting behind their computer "lollie-gagging about" with the comment you made.

Don't even bother replying to this post in any more negative ways...just think about what I said.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:11 am

Thats pretty funny Blacky, but don't you think its a bit harsh?
I mean, "Lick my Balls" and all.
Dude, I have a neighbor you need to meet!!!

I found that very funny

The early 90's were generic Raiden knockoff heaven, remember? Move. Shoot. Get Bored.

Actually, I didn´t get bored at all. Instead, those games made me get interested in video games again after losing touch with the C64´s death.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:16 am

"It's like Psikyo haven't realized that this is not 1991 and they can go beyond "move and shoot"."

Umm...yeah, and isn't that what's generally involved in the gameplay of most shmups?

"The early 90's were generic Raiden knockoff heaven, remember?" Yeah, I do, and so the heck what if some of us still like those kind of shmups the best??

Psikyo shouldn't be dissed just because they don't make shmups that you need a freakin' encyclopedia to understand how to play. That's why I got rid of Border Down, not because I "sucked" at it, but because I'll go buy an RPG if I want a game with that many blasted rules.

"Rob and CMoon: I'll stop as soon as one of you licks my balls. Deal? "

How about this, you take your immature arse over to Gamefaqs if you want to act like you're emotionally 13 with crap like that.

Seriously, why do you feel the need to treat people like crap on this site??

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:25 am

now that bulletmagnet mentions it, i effin hate random stages, and its quite obvious they're there just for you to put up more coins to learn them. not a problem sice i dont play at arcades all that often, but still annoying having to learn 3 times as much as in other games to get past that "get to stage 5 consistently" point.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:26 am

The thing about Psikyo games is that the dodging is all about leading the patterns. You have to know what's coming up and plan ahead so that you have enough space to move around in. They can feel unfair at times, but once you get the flow down they really aren't. You still need to be alert all the time, though.

I find Psikyo games to be refreshing. I like to play score-oriented games like Dodonpachi a lot, but in those types of games, you'd better restart as soon as you fuck up, because it's going to be hard to make up for a broken chain, an untimely death, or a wasted bomb. This can get frustrating. When I'm playing Strikers, I might no miss the first few stages, or I might lose a man on the first stage. When that happens, I keep going, because it's not going to destroy my score potential.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:28 am

"now that bulletmagnet mentions it, i effin hate random stages, and its quite obvious they're there just for you to put up more coins to learn them. not a problem sice i dont play at arcades all that often, but still annoying having to learn 3 times as much as in other games to get past that "get to stage 5 consistently" point."

Yeah, but every Psikyo home port I've ever played lets you decide if you want the stages done in a random fashion or not.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:35 am

I think random opening stages helps keep things fresh and me awake.

dave4shmups wrote: And WHERE ARE the mods?!...in hibernation?!

They're probably doing what people want them to do.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:36 am

black mariah wrote:Rob and CMoon: I'll stop as soon as one of you licks my balls.

black mariah wrote:Just remember... if you're pitching you aren't gay. You're just playing pretend.

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:I really don't see why you feel the need to be so offensive. I'm sure Cmoon and Rob are not sitting behind their computer "lollie-gagging about" with the comment you made.

Don't even bother replying to this post in any more negative ways

Twitch is right. black maria, restrain yourself from speaking so offensively to people while on this forum. Naturally you're free to retort to people who disagree with you, but not to hurl sexual preference insults at them or imply such inappropriate things. Consider this a light warning.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:47 am

dave4shmups wrote:Yeah, but every Psikyo home port I've ever played lets you decide if you want the stages done in a random fashion or not.

Maybe I hafta check the Options menu more carefully, but I don't recall seeing that option in any of the ports I own...or is it a code?

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:02 am

Twitch is right. black maria, restrain yourself from speaking so offensively to people while on this forum. Naturally you're free to retort to people who disagree with you, but not to hurl sexual preference insults at them or imply such inappropriate things. Consider this a light warning.

dude was probably joking but I'd have to agree nonetheless...ought to get to know everyone a little better before insulting

and even then can't let this place degrade too much, or further depending on your viewpoint

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:04 am

Dave's admitting that he hasn't played any Psikyo port pre-PS2.

Post by **Ghegs** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:03 am

I used to dislike Psikyo's games for the reasons already mentioned: high difficulty, random levels. Now I love them for the exact same reasons.

Not all of them are that hard, either. Sengoku Ace is pretty manageable, as is the first Gunbird. Occasionaly I can even get to 1-6 on Strikers 1945.

IlMrm · Post by **IlMrm** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:00 am

I'll call myself a veteran of Psikyo, having played all the Strikers, DB, the GBs, ZG 2, Sengoku Blaede, and unfortunately, Sol Divide.

I like Psikyo's fast bullet sprays, the dense spams, etc. It's Psikyo's style. I've lost my share of planes to those patterns, but that's part of playing shmups. I don't want to sound like I'm braggin, but with the exception of maybe three to four really fast bullet spray patterns found in almost each Psikyo games, the other bullets/patterns don't seem that fast to me.

I always had fun playing Psikyo games(except Sol Divide). And regarding the reuse of the same power/bomb icons, I have no problems with that. It has its own charm.

Also when you lose a plane, you can quickly power back up, and even not all full power you still stand a chance. I also personally have no trouble with the random levels. I do have a lot of trouble with GB2's second loop though.

So you can say I have a love relationship with Psikyo.

PsikyoPshumpPshooterP · Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:10 am

Ex_Mosquito wrote:Psikyo are one of my fav game developers. No gimmick scoring systems just pure gameplay. Am i the only one who prefer Psikyo over Cave?

NOPE!

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:01 am

Its all personal preference, but I have never liked the 'bullet pattern positioning' in Psikyo games. My friends ARC & ARM share my feelings on this. That doesn't mean to say that I don't appreciate them. I just leave them to Mills (-M-). Last night I watched him bang round both loops of Strikers 1945 with various ships - I enjoy watching him play Psikyo games, but I don't wish to join him on them - they just don't suit me.

When I come to think of it

, I suppose I enjoy freestyle dodging and weaving, not 'bullet pattern positioning'.

Post by **system11** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:58 am

I like their games, they were too guilty of rehashing the same engine endlessly though. They do make tough games usually, but Gunbird 2 seems -particularly- vicious, resulting in numerous times where it slams me with a pattern too fast to move out of the way of, and me saying 'oh, fuck you.' and switching the game off.

Actually the language is usually more colourful than that.

chtimi-CLA · Post by **chtimi-CLA** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:09 am

i used to hate gunbird 2, i don't know why. after giving it a real chance though, i appreciate it more and more. i suppose that since i became a cave whore i needed to ajust to the different pace..
so i had sort of a love-hate relationship if you want to put it this way. it's true that the reuse of the bomb item and other details give psikyo shmups a templateish feeling at first sight, but once you're into it it doesn't matter.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:21 am

They are all a bit similar, I don't think there's any denying that. Myself, I like them, but I suck. I suck so badly that it does kinda put a dampener on my enjoyment, 'cause I just don't see myself getting any better. And as for Gunbird 2...

I prefer the Cave style, but I do enjoy the simplicity and straight forward style of the Strikers games, and find those almost manageable for the first four stages or so, as long as I'm playing TATE.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:37 pm

Actually, for those arguing that Psikyo games are all about 'move and shoot' with no complex scoring rules--again, I give you Dragon Blaze (althoug many of them actually have complex scoring rules--DB is just the most obvious). I think the biggest issue though is that Psikyo does not force you to be aware of those rules; you can play just for survival, but as pointed out in the strategy thread, there are ways to play that will maximize points that are rather unintuitive.

And it isn't like complex scoring systems belong exclusively to our modern games. Something the recent 'pinball hall of fame' release has taught me. Games have had complex scoring systems since...well since there have been games.

P.S. Dave4shmups...you sold BorderDown? Well I guess it isn't for everyone, but that really is one of the finest horizontal shmups. Oh well.

WarpZone · Post by **WarpZone** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:23 pm

From my somewhat limited experience with Psikyo games, it does appear one of the main non-aesthetical problems is that the mentality behind a number of the bullet patterns just doesn't seem that intuitive, as bullet magnet touched on. In particular, some of the fast bullet spreads come to mind. If seems if I am ever to die in one of those games, I will at one of those fast spreads. Now sure, I can begin to memorize the correct positions to dodge the spreads. Maybe there's even some pretty clever techniques behind it. The problem isn't that it can be eventually done, just that it seems to be fairly rote memorization that punishes upon the first few plays. I prefer Cave's approach- where the bullet patterns are more intuitively constructed and you have a "shot" at passing them even the first time. You might not- but then you'll be on the right track based on your performance up to that point, not so much on trial-and-error modification. Even Dangun Feveron, which like a Psikyo game tends to emphasize fast bullets, manages to make the learning more intuitive (such as through the smaller hit box).

It might be an issue of pacing, and how we enjoy learning to play these games. I prefer a somewhat organic feel of progression and learning, and it seems Psikyo games do not necessarily always favor this.

sffan · Post by **sffan** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:00 pm

Psikyo games don't have to be memorized if you have really good reflexes. Cave games give you easy paths and the time to navigate them, while Psikyo games force you to be in a tense state, watching out for fast bullets that test your reflexes. They would be a lot easier in slow-motion, although I guess that would be true of any shmup.

My point is that if someone has great concentration, hand-eye coordination, and quick reactions, then that person may do well on Psikyo's shmups without a lot of memorization. They test a particular class of skills, in other words.

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:00 am

This is fucking great. I tell someone to lick my balls and all of a sudden I'm making sexual preference jokes. Seriously dudes, LIGHTEN THE FUCK UP. If you know I'm being flippant, what's the problem? I'm a flippant person anywhere and everywhere I go. Trust me, I've told much bigger and scarier people than anyone here to lick my balls and they never had a problem with it. And they're not even twitchdoctor's neighbor or anything.

Nemo: Explain why I like shmups by Raizing and Seibu. Raiden Fighters and Battle Garegga destroy me faster than anything Psikyo has ever made and I'll play either well before I head for Psikyo's stuff (excluding Zero Gunner, of course).. I bought Gunbird 2 the day I bought my first Dreamcast and had only that to play for a good 4-5 months. I got to where I could clear level 4 easily enough. Maybe you should pull your head out of your Psikyo fanboy ass long enough (OMG!!111 SOMETHING IN A GUY'S ASS! I must be homophobic!

) to realize that their games just aren't that great. They're not BAD, but... fmeh. BTW, I've been coming here on and off since Shmups Mk2 was still hosted on classicgaming.com. If people don't know me by now they need to pay more attention.

TWITCHDOCTOR: Anything about me thinking you're gay is being read into by you. As CMoon has already pointed out, but somehow failed to understand, I'm an incredibly flippant person. The majority of what I say is total bullshit and can be discarded. The rest probably isn't interesting enough to pay attention to either, but that proof is too big for the margin.

raiden: Fine! Go play Hot Dog Storm!

dave4shmups: Yes, that's the basics of shmup gameplay. But don't you think after a decade of the basics they could move on to something, you know, NOT basic? I agree that some of this stuff is overbearing (See the juggling of medals, power ups, and rank in Battle Garegga), but mix in SOMETHING ELSE to differentiate yourself from... well... Hot Dog Storm.