Ketsui PCB collection : let's get it dumped.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:23 am

I'll donate as soon as I cash my paycheck. I want to be part of this, even if I suck at Cave's games.

THE DUMP EVER!

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:24 am

four pages and it hasn't turned into http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:35 am

Not sure why you did it,

To save space. The point of my rebuttal was that Cave doesn't do any of the moaning... Arika (the publisher) does. I have no idea why I said Arika/Cave have the right to get pissed. Yeah, it's Cave's game, but as dumb as this sounds, they're not going to make any more dough off of it. I guess Arika might make $8 w/ Ketsui Death Lable, but MAME will hardly impact any DS sales.

bay · Post by **bay** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:43 am

interesting to see this thread, ill drop a couple bucks @ the cause this week.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:39 am

Forgive my ignorance on this matter. IIRC the PS2 couldn't do this port 100% with Arika behind the wheel hard coding it.

That sounds like a PC would have trouble emulating it surely? The ps2 doesn't have to worry about audio because its streamed so that lightens the load a bit as well.

Maybe i'm talking out of my arse, but I thought i'd throw that in there.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:41 am

Only problem with the PS2 port was a lack of RAM. Absolutely no problem on a PC, so this will run fine once the encryption is cracked.

djvinc · Post by **djvinc** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:09 pm

I donated 30 USD.
(btw it's for ROM dumps, not for emulation...)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:30 pm

almost half way to the target in 3 days :D

eight · Post by **eight** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:43 pm

Wow! Keep it going!

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:58 pm

What happens to the board once its cracked?

Can I have it?

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:01 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:What happens to the board once its cracked?

Can I have it?

The Guru sells it and uses the money to buy and dump rare PCB's

rtw

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:05 pm

Who is guru?

Is that an underground MAME support person?

Oh and I refuse to believe 24meg of ps2 ram is not enough. The Arika games probably needed more ram.

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:19 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:Who is guru?

Is that an underground MAME support person?

Oh and I refuse to believe 24meg of ps2 ram is not enough. The Arika games probably needed more ram.

http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/faq.html

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:58 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:Oh and I refuse to believe 24meg of ps2 ram is not enough. The Arika games probably needed more ram.

Believe it, from another post that I made in another thread:

--
Spoke to friend who happens to program a PS2

---
It's hardly VRAM he's ran out of. It's likely main RAM (32 MB). The PS2 has a HUGE bandwith to the rasterizer (GS) but it only has 4 MB of actual VRAM, but that's usually not an issue at all due to the HUGE memory bandwith from main RAM to GS local mem.

He says he's having problems getting data into ram, that could be a problem depending on the amount of data. But since this is a 2D game with relatively low resolution it shouldn't add up to so much data after all, assuming all graphics are paletted. But, still, we should be able to calculate that, everything is related to amount of data, and the speed that you are flying.

Sounds like he tried to use CRI filesystem, that is a very common streaming middleware in japan and asia. Don't know if they have any flaws but it's quite easy to stream in a few MB's / second with a few lines of C code and that's quite alot if it's 8-bit graphics no? He's definitely right in that a bad disc would render the game unplayable though.

RAM on the PCB is irrelevant to this discussion. It's how much graphics data is stored in ROM that is interesting. That's what needs to be drawn. Most 2D games use some sort of graphics characters to draw it's graphics so you can draw huge areas of graphics with limited memory. If we assume ketsui doesn't use tiled graphics it would need a huge amount of ROM to just store it's backgrounds even if they were jpeg.

Many enemies shouldn't be a problem. I think the problem he has is related to many layers of 16-32 bit graphics data.

The Ketsui developer seemed to indicate he had already ruled out all such options. The data probably need to be streamed in while playing. Mind you, streaming would only be required if we can't fit one level of graphics chips in ~24 megabyte (!), that's alot of data. This indicates the PCB have more ROM than I thought or that the data is converted to 32-bit or similar for the PS2. But the PS2 is very good at handling both 8 and 4-bit CLUT graphics data, and on the PS2 each texture can have it's own 16 or 256 colors which allows for *alot* of colors on a limited amount of memory.
---
--

rtw

bcass · Post by **bcass** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:52 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:The ps2 doesn't have to worry about audio because its streamed so that lightens the load a bit as well.

There would hardly be a significant overhead for audio anyway as the PCB uses MOD tracker format for the soundtrack (it's mentioned in the OST inlay notes).

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:04 pm

holy crap, so somewhere on the PCB is MOD data?.. would be nice to get that into fast tracker for some remix action

lawnspic · Post by **lawnspic** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:10 pm

some help will be needed for this project, hopefully Nicola Salmoria can be of assistance, or anyone from the FBA team

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:13 pm

money first, then dump, then help

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:54 am

pixelcorps wrote:money first, then dump, then help

i agree with your money first statement and i just donated E10.70 (unfortunately that's all i can miss right now).

but once it's dumped will their be serious & timely support from people who have a (serious) background in cryptology who can attempt to break the encryption?

think people might be hesitant that if it gets dumped it will lie on a digital shelf for ages before anyone who can seriously do something with it will touch it.
though i understand it's no use to assemble an army before you have an opponent to battle.
however, i do think that project would be a lot more appealing for people to donate if it had a bit of time frame, something like:
once we reach the $800 it will take X-time before you can play ketsui in mame.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:01 am

A time frame just isn't going to happen. You'll just have to keep your hopes up, and keep in mind that even if this does all fall into place and the ROM gets dumped or whatnot, it could STILL be years before anyone is playing Ketsui in MAME.

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:12 am

Arvandor wrote:A time frame just isn't going to happen. You'll just have to keep your hopes up, and keep in mind that even if this does all fall into place and the ROM gets dumped or whatnot, it could STILL be years before anyone is playing Ketsui in MAME.

i was afraid of that, yeah.

Keade · Post by **Keade** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:59 am

eretsua wrote: however, i do think that project would be a lot more appealing for people to donate if it had a bit of time frame, something like:
once we reach the $800 it will take X-time before you can play ketsui in mame.

This is impossible, first because you can't give deadlines to unpaid, voluntary programmers, second, because it's impossible to say how much work it is before actually beginning to work on the encryption, and third because the game publisher might forbid a driver to be activated in MAME.

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:18 pm

eretsua wrote:but once it's dumped will their be serious & timely support from people who have a (serious) background in cryptology who can attempt to break the encryption?

The game is not encrypted, it has some kind of address swapping/data swapping.

rtw

eretsua · Post by **eretsua** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:58 pm

i wasn't suggesting a deadline or anything like it.

i think that if you get confirmation of some people who can make the dumped rom work in mame are actually interested in working on this project you'll probably also see that people will more easily donate.

the reason that i donated was that Guru is willing to dump it. it makes the project a lot more viable...

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:46 am

thing is, we can't get any confirmation from anyone, even guru states that he's sick of people saying they're going to donate PCB's and never do.

Ayanami · Post by **Ayanami** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:50 am

I will donate at the end of the week. Don't have the cash right now.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:52 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:Ketsui is the final frontier in a sense, i'm sure the later revisions of Cave boards will use the same techniques.
what makes you think that? i'm not saying your wrong but it would surprise me if they didn't change vary their protection from time to time.

if by later you mean ESPGaluda, you'd be right. If you mean Mushihime-sama thru Muchi Pork, no. Apples & Oranges.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:03 am

I'm just throwing stuff out there to you guys. Guru is an individual am I correct?

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:19 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:I'm just throwing stuff out there to you guys. Guru is an individual am I correct?

He is an individual.

http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/

And he is reading this thread, now let's focus on donating money,
buying the PCB and getting Ketsui dumped.

rtw

zinger · Post by **zinger** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:46 am

Money sent.