So why exactly does Cave not want to port anymore?

Never_Scurred · Post by **Never_Scurred** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:22 pm

ZeetherKID77 wrote:What about that Ketsui Pocket-DOOM thingy for DS?

STFU

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:25 pm

Never_Scurred wrote:
ZeetherKID77 wrote:What about that Ketsui Pocket-DOOM thingy for DS?
STFU

I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:25 am

sfried wrote: I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.

You're not looking hard enough.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:54 am

sfried wrote:
Never_Scurred wrote:
ZeetherKID77 wrote:What about that Ketsui Pocket-DOOM thingy for DS?
STFU
I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.

I do if it would get in the way of Ketsui being ported to Wii (88 MB of RAM should be sufficient), PS3, or 360. I don't want an XBLA or PSN version before a disc one- good luck to US members getting Japanese content.

Vincere · Post by **Vincere** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:02 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
sfried wrote: I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.
You're not looking hard enough.

You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Stop whining seriously, that's some crazy as fuck baby behaviour. I feel glad every time a shmup is released and you should seriously lower your 1337 standards. Seriously. It's 2007 baby.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:41 am

Vincere wrote: You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Quality, gnagnagna.

And yeah, I'm not a shmupper. Really, really dumb word.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:26 am

GaijinPunch wrote: And yeah, I'm not a shmupper. Really, really dumb word.

You have to say it out loud to fully appreciate it

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:47 am

GaijinPunch wrote:the average person buying a 360 doesn't give a shit about score, "bad graphics", or anything that isn't hardc0re w00T!

This is where I feel like chiming in to say that if any console has the chance to bring back old-school gaming, it's the 360. Achievement points have brought us closer to mainstream acceptance of point-based accomplishments than anything in a decade and XBLA is full of arcade-style games, the most popular of which happens to be a very simple-looking shooter in the guise of Robotron.

Complete and utter disdain for the current market, followed by a total dismissal of them, sure as hell ain't going to change attitudes. If anything, this generation has been placing more emphasis on short, pick-up-and-play, compete-for-score games than anything mainstream companies remotely attempted last gen. Look down your nose at what MS, Sony and Nintendo are trying to do with downloadable content, if it reminds the public that these kinds of games still exist and can be fun then it's a positive development.

sfried · Post by **sfried** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:54 pm

Vincere wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:
sfried wrote: I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.
You're not looking hard enough.
You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Stop whining seriously, that's some crazy as fuck baby behaviour. I feel glad every time a shmup is released and you should seriously lower your 1337 standards. Seriously. It's 2007 baby.

No wonder they say the shmups forum is considerably spazzed up.

Wouldn't any Ketsui be better than no Ketsui? Shmuping is a privillage, not a right... (sounding like a retard from the animenation forums)

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:45 pm

Ketsui DS should come out. If it's a version made specifically for the hardware, which is what everyone has said, I don't see how it could disappoint. Same thing with Konami's shmup offerings on the DMG Game Boy for example. They're still totally playable games, and worth revisiting because they were their own thing and not trying to shove square pegs in round holes making a project destined to be inferior to the original.

GaijinPunch, is your argument that Cave can only produce quality when they determine the specs of the hardware, as with arcade boards? That they just don't know the home market? I saw them willing to say, this won't be Ketsui, it will be Ketsui DS, and that alone makes me not concerned about if it would be quality or not. Even if it is "Ketsui lite", it is what it is. I think it's just your disdain about handhelds in general factoring in here.

gavin19 · Post by **gavin19** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:16 pm

sfried wrote: No wonder they say the shmups forum is considerably spazzed up.

Lol. Who are 'they'? And wtf is 'spazzed up'?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:17 pm

sethsez wrote: If anything, this generation has been placing more emphasis on short, pick-up-and-play, compete-for-score games than anything mainstream companies remotely attempted last gen.

Which games are these? I know nothing about the current gen (other than what little I've seen on the tube, which has been enough to turn me away).

But semi-on topic, XBLA is hardly a retro-gaming comeback. I understand your argument, but in the interest of this thread, it's not going to really help the situation of unemulated Cave games.

ktownhero · Post by **ktownhero** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:46 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
sethsez wrote: If anything, this generation has been placing more emphasis on short, pick-up-and-play, compete-for-score games than anything mainstream companies remotely attempted last gen.
Which games are these? I know nothing about the current gen (other than what little I've seen on the tube, which has been enough to turn me away).

But semi-on topic, XBLA is hardly a retro-gaming comeback. I understand your argument, but in the interest of this thread, it's not going to really help the situation of unemulated Cave games.

Cave games aside, how can you say it is "hardly" a retro-gaming comeback? It's THE retro-gaming comeback. Nothing else is doing it! So far there is a good variety of arcade games available, and with live you get the great sense of old-school arcade competition amongst friends and strangers. The remakes of a lot of games are really cool too like Pacman CE and Geometry Wars Evolved, and the selection of board games is welcome too. I can't wait for Ikaruga to get released on the arcade.

Kron · Post by **Kron** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:57 pm

Live Arcade is garbage, If any decent Japanese shmups are going to come out I'd wager theres more chance of them appearing in the Playstation store.

roker · Post by **roker** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:29 pm

Vincere wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:
sfried wrote: I don't see Ketsui DS as a bad thing.
You're not looking hard enough.
You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Stop whining seriously, that's some crazy as fuck baby behaviour. I feel glad every time a shmup is released and you should seriously lower your 1337 standards. Seriously. It's 2007 baby.

one of the reasons you're on my "Frenchmen I respect" list

coincidently, there's only one person on that list

but yeah, while Ibara and Mushi are not perfect ports, they're a far cry from the days of SNES/Genny ports vs. Arcade

I'd be quite happy with Muchi Pork, Ketsui, and Pink Sweets in the same vain

Kron · Post by **Kron** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:05 pm

Vincere wrote:
You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Stop whining seriously, that's some crazy as fuck baby behaviour. I feel glad every time a shmup is released and you should seriously lower your 1337 standards. Seriously. It's 2007 baby.

How is expecting a perfect port of something in 2007 a 1337 standard? It should be the rule NOT the exception. The only thing your post says is you have exceptionally low standards.

auryn · Post by **auryn** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:44 pm

GaijinPunch wrote: Which games are these? I know nothing about the current gen (other than what little I've seen on the tube, which has been enough to turn me away).

really true, I just bought a 2nd hand ps2 - it had a bunch of games preinstalled on the HD. I was trying out a couple to see what the guy had been playing prior to selling it to me, and I was amazed at how nearly every single game took ages to introduce itself, all pompous and shit, and the amount of screens I had to click through just to get playing. (I really enjoyed a game called Okami though) Really, I thought kids in general would be way too impatient to stomach this stuff.

on the other hand, maybe kids are more impressionable, and go with it more easily, not minding stuff like bad voice acting and overly pompous music.

anyway, I guess when I argued earlier on in this thread how it's weird cave games aren't ported, I also thought cave stuff would go down well with current gen, because of the instant pick up and play factor and the stylish design. But seeing these ps2 games, I guess I've gotten a bit out of touch with what video games are about these days.

roker · Post by **roker** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:38 pm

Kron wrote:
Vincere wrote:
You shmuppers are NEVER happy with what you get. 60Hz blablabla, Tate blablabla, arcade perfect gnagnagna.

Stop whining seriously, that's some crazy as fuck baby behaviour. I feel glad every time a shmup is released and you should seriously lower your 1337 standards. Seriously. It's 2007 baby.
How is expecting a perfect port of something in 2007 a 1337 standard? It should be the rule NOT the exception. The only thing your post says is you have exceptionally low standards.

you missed the point

even if it isn't perfect, it's still a far cry from the 16 bit gen

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:24 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Which games are these?

Geometry Wars, Super Stardust HD, the new Pac-Man (which is a pretty major, and amazing, update), Jetpac Refuelled (ditto), Mutant Storm, Assault Heroes, etc. Jeff Minter also has another game coming out called Space Giraffe and there are many old shooters and action-platformers being ported to the thing, complete with online leaderboards that actually get a decent amount of competition.

No, it's not like the old Genesis days, but that doesn't mean it's not a step in the right direction for score-based gaming.

Just FYI, here's a video of Geometry Wars: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8233765106

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:25 am

@auryn:

Okami is great. It was unfortunately not the standard last gen. I really enjoyed the game (great ambiance).

you missed the point

I hate to get into the "no, you did" argument, but Kron has a point. Everyone bitches and moans about how "the current gen can handle the old ports just fine" but then when a substandard port is released (90% of arcade ports on the PS2) nobody but us elite pricks w/ standards complain. There's plenty of ways to play these old games close to perfectly through open source routes... why the fuck should I pay for a plate of shit?

It's THE retro-gaming comeback.

B/c it's not a comeback. It's great and all that it's there for people that don't want a proper, dedicated MAME setup, but it's just a bunch of cheap, downloadable games. If people want to see these games coming back into the mainstream (and more games like them) consumers will have to spend more money on these types of games.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:37 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Okami is great. It was unfortunately not the standard last gen.

Sure it was. It was an extremely linear game that held your hand through the entire thing and presented no real challenge while coasting by on looking pretty. It just happened to look REALLY pretty. I liked it a lot, but aside from the graphics it was a pretty standard game.

B/c it's not a comeback. It's great and all that it's there for people that don't want a proper, dedicated MAME setup, but it's just a bunch of cheap, downloadable games. If people want to see these games coming back into the mainstream (and more games like them) consumers will have to spend more money on these types of games.

The big difference it online leaderboards bringing back the appeal of score competitions, which MAME doesn't really offer and the public hasn't given a shit about for a long time. It's not just the games that are available, but what's being done with them, that makes XBLA and its ilk so good for retro gaming. Compilations have existed in the past, but this time companies are actually encouraging score competitions.

And again, it's not just a bunch of old games. There are plenty of new games on XBLA as well that are doing fine.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:08 am

sethsez wrote: Sure it was. It was an extremely linear game that held your hand through the entire thing and presented no real challenge

It was a zelda clone. The challenge is in the thinking & puzzle solving (of which there was plenty...especially playing the Japanese version). And yeah, presentation was very good. Not just graphics. One of the few game soundtracks worth buying, and the time put into the dialogue (I can't imagine the localization doing it any justice), etc. etc. In that sense, it was miles from the norm.

ktownhero · Post by **ktownhero** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:38 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
It's THE retro-gaming comeback.
B/c it's not a comeback. It's great and all that it's there for people that don't want a proper, dedicated MAME setup, but it's just a bunch of cheap, downloadable games. If people want to see these games coming back into the mainstream (and more games like them) consumers will have to spend more money on these types of games.

Why do you feel like it has to be so black and white? Mame is nice for playing some old games by yourself or maybe with one friend. XBLA lets you play some old games, new revisions and even board games and does a pretty good job of simulating the ACTUAL arcade feel i.e., playing with friends/strangers and competing.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:27 pm

All I see from any 'mainstream' or even 'not really into older games' types I know is they see some game came out on XBLA. They think 'hey, I remember that game from 198X/199X and I had fun then, I'm going to spend $5 or whatever and buy it!'

They play it for a few days, maybe a week and then they say something like 'wow, that game really isn't fun now' and that's that.

A really small number of people continue playing these games in any capacity. Granted, the biggest one is Geometry Wars, but even then the uptake on 'serious' or 'frequent' play on that is low. And this is your 'retro gaming comeback?'. From where I'm standing it looks like the exact opposite to me.

Also achievement points are not in the same league or even the same universe as 'point based accomplishments' at least not in the way you may be thinking. To most people they're a perverted form of collection, like abstract pokemon. How many games can I rent to get easy achievement points so I look more leet?

ktownhero · Post by **ktownhero** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:16 pm

I think some of you guys think too hard on this to allow yourselves to enjoy it. It's not necessary to deeply analyze everything, just have fun!

Post by **Shatterhand** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:51 pm

Okami take ages to start. I remember when I got it, I was chatting with a friend on MSN, and said "Hey, I just got Okami!" .. "Is it any good?" .. "I dunno, I just popped the game ,and it's showing the intro"

10 minutes later

"So, is the game any good?" .. "I don't know, I still didn't played it, the thing is still in the intro"

like, one hour later

"So, is the game any good?" .. "FUCKING HELL WHY CAN'T I SKIP ALL THIS BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH ?? THIS IS TOO MUCH ANNOYING TO ME.. JUST LET ME SAVE AND QUIT, SO I DON'T HAVE TO READ IT ALL AGAIN..."

To be quite honest, I still havent played the game

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:20 pm

zakk wrote:Granted, the biggest one is Geometry Wars, but even then the uptake on 'serious' or 'frequent' play on that is low.

How many people used to perfect games even way back when? I'd say playing for score took a massive dive in popularity around the time games started having ending screens rather than looping into eternity. Even when you ask people what their favorite NES games are, you'll generally get a list of games that aren't score-oriented. And when Street Fighter II came out, competing through score became even less attractive than beating the hell out of each other. Serious score competition hasn't been mainstream in a very long time, and actually providing a world-wide score board accessible by everyone who owns the game is doing more to try and bring it back than anything from, say, the PSOne or Two eras. The most we got there were cheap compilations and arcade ports with scoreboards filled with the same initials because you could only compete against yourself unless you happened to know other people into those games (not too likely, and even then it'd be only two sets of initials), or could find an online community to share scores on, which is for most people a pain in the ass not worth dealing with.

Compared to that, yeah, I'll say that new, original games that actively encourage competition through score world-wide is a step up. That a lot of people aren't biting is to be expected, but some people are and XBLA is significantly more high profile than previous attempts at reviving score-based gaming so those successes matter.

Also achievement points are not in the same league or even the same universe as 'point based accomplishments' at least not in the way you may be thinking.

I said achievement points are bringing back the concept of indirect, score-based dick-waving (ie, competition that isn't based on direct interaction between players but is instead based on a posted numerical value). When I talked about actually playing the games for points I specifically mentioned leaderboards, which are not the same thing.

zak · Post by **zak** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:25 pm

roker · Post by **roker** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:29 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:
you missed the point
I hate to get into the "no, you did" argument, but Kron has a point. Everyone bitches and moans about how "the current gen can handle the old ports just fine" but then when a substandard port is released (90% of arcade ports on the PS2) nobody but us elite pricks w/ standards complain. There's plenty of ways to play these old games close to perfectly through open source routes... why the fuck should I pay for a plate of shit?

just can't win

I still can't believe there was a multi-page thread on the resolution of Ibara

a fucking multi-page thread on resolution

say that out loud

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:51 pm

roker wrote: I still can't believe there was a multi-page thread on the resolution of Ibara
a fucking multi-page thread on resolution
say that out loud

A multi-page thread about piss-poor quality. Not sure what communist country you live in, but in the free world, you have a right to bitch when you buy something that sucks.

Okami take ages to start

Yeah, it's a bit too long, even for as pretty as it was. The whole game should've been capped at 25 hours, not 40. That's coming from someone who hasn't wanted to play much of anything for over 25 hours for about a decade now.