So why exactly does Cave not want to port anymore?

[Milkgoat]

Did their ports not sell well in Japan?

[Circa2113]

[Strider77]

b/c cave is evil

[Battlesmurf]

I want that dead horse figure- set-thing


EDIT: re-worded (trust me- it's better than calling it a 'horse thing')

[BBH]

because releasing ports made them a lot less elitist, and we can't have that now can we

[EOJ]

Did their ports not sell well in Japan?

Bingo. Low sales (below 15K) + PS2 unable to handle the current games + the inability to market a 2D vertical shooter on the "next gen" systems = No more Cave ports.

I do hope they consider porting to the Wii, as that's pretty much their only viable option at this point. But frankly, I doubt it will happen. Cave is an arcade company first and foremost. They obviously care very little about the home market. In spite of this they are very successful. So I doubt it's something they are worrying about.

The one thing I'm pretty sure we'll never see is any Cave port released as a cheap download on XBLA or a similar service on the competing consoles. Unless it's a port of one of their cellphone games, of course.

[Battlesmurf]

I think I'd shed a tear if an "pixel perfect arcade compilation" came out on a disc: ) SOmehow- I almost wonder if they are thinking "port less= more arcade players!"

[mirkvid]

you would hope for a pc release of some newer titles at least. i dont know how popular the market is in jp for pc shmups, but it would seem like the easiest way to get it ported.

[-Bridget-]

Did their ports not sell well in Japan?

Bingo. Low sales (below 15K) + PS2 unable to handle the current games + the inability to market a 2D vertical shooter on the "next gen" systems = No more Cave ports.

I do hope they consider porting to the Wii, as that's pretty much their only viable option at this point. But frankly, I doubt it will happen. Cave is an arcade company first and foremost. They obviously care very little about the home market. In spite of this they are very successful. So I doubt it's something they are worrying about.

The one thing I'm pretty sure we'll never see is any Cave port released as a cheap download on XBLA or a similar service on the competing consoles. Unless it's a port of one of their cellphone games, of course.

Personally I think they could market these games on next-gen systems just FINE if they actually TRIED, but that's just me.


Cause they indeed might sell alot better on a system that isnt weak and sad like the PS2...... (STUPID SLOWDOWN BLOWING ME UP REPEATEDLY).


*sigh* Having to pay absolutely silly amounts to get them PCB things for these games is very, very annoying......

[zakk]

Did their ports not sell well in Japan?

Bingo. Low sales (below 15K) + PS2 unable to handle the current games + the inability to market a 2D vertical shooter on the "next gen" systems = No more Cave ports.

I do hope they consider porting to the Wii, as that's pretty much their only viable option at this point. But frankly, I doubt it will happen. Cave is an arcade company first and foremost. They obviously care very little about the home market. In spite of this they are very successful. So I doubt it's something they are worrying about.

The one thing I'm pretty sure we'll never see is any Cave port released as a cheap download on XBLA or a similar service on the competing consoles. Unless it's a port of one of their cellphone games, of course.

Personally I think they could market these games on next-gen systems just FINE if they actually TRIED, but that's just me.


Cause they indeed might sell alot better on a system that isnt weak and sad like the PS2...... (STUPID SLOWDOWN BLOWING ME UP REPEATEDLY).


*sigh* Having to pay absolutely silly amounts to get them PCB things for these games is very, very annoying......

What? Why are you people so blind when it comes to this stuff? Are you REALLY putting forth the assertion that games that had low sales on what is quite possibly the most COMMON console would somehow be worth porting to consoles with less market penetration? Where the manufacturers of said consoles are emphasizing higher resolutions, 3d graphics and eye candy?

So what you're saying is they should go through more development effort (and therefore more development costs) to make less money?

[GaijinPunch]

What zakk said. He wins.

In fact, that summed it up so well, I think the mods should just lock the thread.

[-Bridget-]

Bingo. Low sales (below 15K) + PS2 unable to handle the current games + the inability to market a 2D vertical shooter on the "next gen" systems = No more Cave ports.

I do hope they consider porting to the Wii, as that's pretty much their only viable option at this point. But frankly, I doubt it will happen. Cave is an arcade company first and foremost. They obviously care very little about the home market. In spite of this they are very successful. So I doubt it's something they are worrying about.

The one thing I'm pretty sure we'll never see is any Cave port released as a cheap download on XBLA or a similar service on the competing consoles. Unless it's a port of one of their cellphone games, of course.

Personally I think they could market these games on next-gen systems just FINE if they actually TRIED, but that's just me.


Cause they indeed might sell alot better on a system that isnt weak and sad like the PS2...... (STUPID SLOWDOWN BLOWING ME UP REPEATEDLY).


*sigh* Having to pay absolutely silly amounts to get them PCB things for these games is very, very annoying......

What? Why are you people so blind when it comes to this stuff? Are you REALLY putting forth the assertion that games that had low sales on what is quite possibly the most COMMON console would somehow be worth porting to consoles with less market penetration? Where the manufacturers of said consoles are emphasizing higher resolutions, 3d graphics and eye candy?

So what you're saying is they should go through more development effort (and therefore more development costs) to make less money?

............no.


Right NOW the PS2, junky piece of crap that it is, is the most common system.


BUT. That wont last forever.


Sooner or later..... probably sooner...... The next-gen systems will outdo that, just as it outdid the PS1 before it.


So, at that point, one of them WILL be the most common platform, with good marketability and all that stuff.


The point is, though, that Cave STILL wont do it, even then.


I can understand them not wanting to do it NOW.

Aside from just being unable to handle the games fully (*cough* slowdown *cough*), the PS2 is nearing it's end..... while it's still the most COMMON console, it's also BY FAR the weakest. And the next-gens are gaining more and more popularity as their libraries widen.

NOT TO MENTION the unsurpassed SHEER POWER of current PCs that are available. Even a cheaper PC right now, could easily handle any game made by Cave, any bullet hell shooter. Heck, my own machine makes even the 360 or PS3 look weak by comparison.


These recent games by them might not have HAD low sales had the machine running them been CAPABLE OF IT, basically.

*I* personally am perfectly willing to still buy a port even if it has slowdown, but I know alot of people WONT (the port of Mushihime is a good example, from what I hear)


Even still, though....

They'll not even port things when it would make alot more sense to.

THAT's what the real issue is. Getting ANY future game of theirs will be impossible, unless one of two things is done: A: you buy a PCB of the game for 80 gazillion dollars, or B: a better emulator is created (upgraded MAME) and the encryption on these new titles is cracked (as I hear that's part of the problem with that).


I follow the movements of alot of different publishers and developers with great regularity and understand the industry well enough......

.......but that doesnt mean I cant COMPLAIN about stuff I dont like.

[Gorecki]

It does mean that you should use italics instead of all those annoying CAPS though.

[EOJ]

And Bridget, please try to write in paragraphs instead of single sentences separated by like FIVE freaking blank lines. It makes it a pain in the ass to read. BTW your argument does not make a whole lot of sense either...

[Motorherp]

What? Why are you people so blind when it comes to this stuff? Are you REALLY putting forth the assertion that games that had low sales on what is quite possibly the most COMMON console would somehow be worth porting to consoles with less market penetration? Where the manufacturers of said consoles are emphasizing higher resolutions, 3d graphics and eye candy?

So what you're saying is they should go through more development effort (and therefore more development costs) to make less money?

The PS2, PS1, Dreamcast, and XBox where all consoles which emphasized 3d graphics and eye candy yet they have plenty of 2d games. Its always been the case when more powerful consoles come along that people have jumped to the conculsion that all gaming as we know it will cease but so far this has never been true. The power of the machine only dictates the top end of what is available, as long as there is a market for them the less technologicaly advanced games also have a place on these machines too just like they always have in the past.

I agree with you on some points though. At the moment market penetration is low and this will of course deter anyone thinking at targetting the small markets. Like Bridget says though, this will change in time and the next gen machines will become just as common place as the previous gen are now. Your last point is also valid too in that at the moment it is more costly to develop for next gen machines. Most of this comes down to the increased levels of asset generation which are needed to feed the increased power but this wont effect 2d game developers. They will however be effected by the fact that at the moment there is little experience for these systems amongst the developers. Therefore to develop for these systems will require extra time which equates to more costs. All the time though these systems are getting easier to develop for as more libraries and support are released for them and more people in the industry are getting to grips with the new technology. In time the situation for 2d developers will be exactly as it was for them in the later years of the previous gen machines and the gen before that.

To wrap up, just be patient. It might not look good now but 2d games will come just like they always have. As long as Cave maintain their following and keep churning out the games, then eventualy a studio will find themselves in a position where it becomes viable for them to port these games.

[cigsthecat]

Bridget-man is my new favorite poster. Looking forward to the meltdown.

[EOJ]

[
These recent games by them might not have HAD low sales had the machine running them been CAPABLE OF IT, basically.

*I* personally am perfectly willing to still buy a port even if it has slowdown, but I know alot of people WONT (the port of Mushihime is a good example, from what I hear)

I think you've got your facts mixed up here. The Taito PS2 ports have less slowdown than the arcade PCBs. So the PS2 is indeed capable of handling them, actually more than capable. Ibara has like zero slowdown on the PS2 but lots of it on the PCB. The Mushi PCB has about 20% more slowdown than the PS2 port (and the slowdown in the PCB is much slower in many spots).

In any case, in light of this, your argument about the machine being capable leading to more sales obviously makes very little sense.

[Frederik]

I bet when Ketsui is finally running in MAME I already lost interest in videogames.

On a more serious note, many gamers (including myself occasionally) think that video game companies want you to be satisfied first and foremost. I remember this satirical "DS vs PSP" video, and the best line was "Nintendo would rather lose money than not making fun games". If gamers don´t get what they want it´s because they are in the minority with their opinions, and the rules of the market don´t allow for much charity.

Besides, top gamers pumping coin after coin into the machines are a lot more profitable than those players buying a port of that game once.

[Sonic R]

because releasing ports made them a lot less elitist, and we can't have that now can we

What BBH says...

[EOJ]

When they get Galuda 2 and/or Mushi Futari running in Mame, I'll probably be married with a couple kids, playing Golf on the weekends and taking high blood pressure medication. And I'll ride in my FLYING CAR to work.

[GaijinPunch]

as long as there is a market for them

Chimes in to remind everyone that the average person buying the Wii wants to wave around the remote, the average person buying a 360 doesn't give a shit about score, "bad graphics", or anything that isn't hardc0re w00T!, and the average person buying a PS3 is broke, and the minority, as it were (across the world, anyway). So, there is no market for these games on current gen hardware for the foreseeable future.

Throw in the fact that the hardware manufacturers are pushing HD, the chances of more people breaking down and buying a Super gun grows.

[auryn]

Hmmm, I see some people arguing low sales here, but over at play asia, both Ibara and Mushi are sold out. So I think we can reasonably assume that at least all copies that were made were actually sold. Did cave hope to sell enough to warrant a second pressing? Maybe there was a second pressing? Do we actually know how many were sold?

Whatever their initial hopes, I can't imagine how Cave would not benefit from having their games accessible to more than just Japanese arcade gamers and a handful of PCB collectors. I can understand the uncertainty regarding the next gen console market, and what console would be feasible to port to, but a PC port wouldn't suffer from this problem.

Maybe a deal with the MAME devs would help? Not that I really understand that sort of tech stuff, but to me it seems the basic architecture for running cave games is there - just adapt to new Cave game, add some cool extra features, repackage as single installable and excecutable game, and presto. After five years or so, give back to code to be included in mame, minus the extra features (which weren't in the arcade game to begin with).

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Hmmm, I see some people arguing low sales here, but over at play asia, both Ibara and Mushi are sold out. So I think we can reasonably assume that at least all copies that were made were actually sold. Did cave hope to sell enough to warrant a second pressing? Maybe there was a second pressing? Do we actually know how many were sold?

Whatever their initial hopes, I can't imagine how Cave would not benefit from having their games accessible to more than just Japanese arcade gamers and a handful of PCB collectors. I can understand the uncertainty regarding the next gen console market, and what console would be feasible to port to, but a PC port wouldn't suffer from this problem.

Maybe a deal with the MAME devs would help? Not that I really understand that sort of tech stuff, but to me it seems the basic architecture for running cave games is there - just adapt to new Cave game, add some cool extra features, repackage as single installable and excecutable game, and presto. After five years or so, give back to code to be included in mame, minus the extra features (which weren't in the arcade game to begin with).

For auryn,

And how will Cave earn $$$ be going with the Mame developers route? (We already know that they won't go this with particular distribution route anyways...)

If one really wants to play those latest Cave arcade PCBs (the ones that aren't ported to any console or even Mame), then he or she will have to "bite the bullet and pay through the nose" for such an expensive PCB kit in the first place...common sense dictates that for the average "Joe" shmupper will have to do just that if they want the ability to play them if they don't have such access to checking out the latest arcade game offerings in the Japanese game centers..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[GaijinPunch]

Hmmm, I see some people arguing low sales here, but over at play asia, both Ibara and Mushi are sold out.

Sold out doesn't mean sold a lot. Those are extremely small print runs compared to "good" numbers.

Did cave hope to sell enough to warrant a second pressing?

Cave didn't hope shit. Taito did.

Maybe there was a second pressing?

A budget version of Mushi was pressed and sold. A budget Ibara was scheduled and cancelled.

Whatever their initial hopes, I can't imagine how Cave would not benefit from having their games accessible to more than just Japanese arcade gamers and a handful of PCB collectors.

Cave is not a console company. They've only done a handful of a console games. Their marketing/sales department is also microscopic when compared to their production. (The only thing game related that sell are the CDs, DVDs, and figures, and these are in very small numbers). Honestly, they don't even publish their own PCBs. Another company (Atlus, Capcom, AMI) has published everything. So, even if they wanted to port, they'd have to buy the rights from whomever they did the work for. In short, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Maybe a deal with the MAME devs would help? Not that I really understand that sort of tech stuff, but to me it seems the basic architecture for running cave games is there - just adapt to new Cave game.

You're so miles away from anything feasible, we should just leave it at that. To get a port of any of these, there either has to be good profits at the end, or someone that flat out loves Cave to do it. Arika fits the bill, but Mihara loves them so much, he will not produce something unless it is perfect. Cave games will not run perfectly on a PC, so you can bet they would never dream of porting to one (they would sell like shit in Japan anyway, as PC games = porn in Japan).

[Danny]

To be honest and lets be honest here there are plenty of ways that CAVE could distrubute there software on the newer consoles and even on the PC thanks to digital distrubution but the fact of the matter is they simply can't be bothered because some people might take it as there products are "inferior" to other "next gen" games and that hurts their pride.

Seriously CAVE could just port over all their older classics (it does not even have to be them, they could do what Tatio did and get members of the MAME team to do it for them!) on any of the next gen consoles 'vitrual console'/'xbox live!'/'what ever the PS3 has' and make a nice heifty profit. (in fact it pretty much would be prue profit comapired to releasing a brand new game anyway!) I will grauntie that no console producer would turn them down if it ment there console would sell more in Japan *cough*microsoft are you listening?*cough* but CAVE won't do it simply out of elitist pride. I mean Treasure are porting over Ika' to Xbox Live! so it's not implusable guys...

[auryn]

For auryn,

And how will Cave earn $$$ be going with the Mame developers route? (We already know that they won't go this with particular distribution route anyways...)

If one really wants to play those latest Cave arcade PCBs (the ones that aren't ported to any console or even Mame), then he or she will have to "bite the bullet and pay through the nose" for such an expensive PCB kit in the first place...common sense dictates that for the average "Joe" shmupper will have to do just that if they want the ability to play them if they don't have such access to checking out the latest arcade game offerings in the Japanese game centers..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

my idea was you simple buy the pc port of their game - the mamedevs idea was intended to keep the investment in porting low for cave, since part of the software architecture is already there. in return, the mamedevs get the game in mame after a couple of years with no extra work for them.

I would gladly pay something like $ 70 -80 for a ported cave shmup. The price of a PCB is just prohibitive for me.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For auryn,

And how will Cave earn $$$ be going with the Mame developers route? (We already know that they won't go with this particular distribution route anyways...)

If one really wants to play those latest Cave arcade PCBs (the ones that aren't ported to any console or even Mame), then he or she will have to "bite the bullet and pay through the nose" for such an expensive PCB kit in the first place...common sense dictates that for the average "Joe" shmupper will have to do just that if they want the ability to play them if they don't have such access to checking out the latest arcade game offerings in the Japanese game centers..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

my idea was you simple buy the pc port of their game - the mamedevs idea was intended to keep the investment in porting low for cave, since part of the software architecture is already there. in return, the mamedevs get the game in mame after a couple of years with no extra work for them.

I would gladly pay something like $ 70 -80 for a ported cave shmup. The price of a PCB is just prohibitive for me.

I see your point...and so would the profits earned from this so-called PC port version (of said Cave arcade PCB title) be split 50/50 down the middle between Cave and the Mame developers? Surely, after a few years or five years down the road, Cave won't be making $$$ off of their arcade PCBs, it will be the arcade operators (assuming if they still have the PCBs stocked in their arcade cabinets though)..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[undamned]

It's just you.
-ud

[Icarus]

And the new generation of Cave fanboys have arrived.

Lets face it. Cave does not give a shit about you. Cave does not care about Western shootemup players. Cave does not care about the home-based gamer with their J-PS2s and their rotated RGB monitors. Cave does not give a crap if there are millions of rabid console players praying night in, night out for Espgaluda 2 to be ported.

There is little to no money in porting their games to any non-arcade format: console, PC, whatever.

And lets face it, even Cave themselves sucked at porting their own games. Just take a look at Ibara with the slightly altered stage layouts, bugs and lack of slowdown. Wasn't Dodonpachi on Saturn ported by themselves as well? Super-pixellated-o-vision. Feels like I'm playing a Tetris shootemup. Third parties do ports better than what they themselves did, and unfortunately for us, there are no third parties wanting to port their current catalogue to any system worth a damn.

So until Ketsui and the likes get emulated in MAME (which will probably take forever), go buy the PCBs. That's the only way you are ever likely to play their unported games. $600 for an import console and a long wait for a port that might never happen, or $600 on a supergun and Espgaluda 2, right now? Hmmm. I wonder.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

And the new generation of Cave fanboys have arrived.

Lets face it. Cave does not give a shit about you. Cave does not care about Western shootemup players. Cave does not care about the home-based gamer with their J-PS2s and their rotated RGB monitors. Cave does not give a crap if there are millions of rabid console players praying night in, night out for Espgaluda 2 to be ported.

There is little to no money in porting their games to any non-arcade format: console, PC, whatever.

And lets face it, even Cave themselves sucked at porting their own games. Just take a look at Ibara with the slightly altered stage layouts, bugs and lack of slowdown. Wasn't Dodonpachi on Saturn ported by themselves as well? Super-pixellated-o-vision. Feels like I'm playing a Tetris shootemup. Third parties do ports better than what they themselves did, and unfortunately for us, there are no third parties wanting to port their current catalogue to any system worth a damn.

So until Ketsui and the likes get emulated in MAME (which will probably take forever), go buy the PCBs. That's the only way you are ever likely to play their unported games.

For Icarus,

What your above post says...gets straight to the point, of the fact if one wants to play such said Cave arcade PCB, then buy it for yourself. Can't get any plainer than that, folks... ^_~

And if Cave gave two shits to Western shmuppers, then they would've have had two different country versions of their current arcade PCB offerings: Japan & International... ^_~

Tis a true 'bona-fide' arcade experience with being able to play the latest Cave arcade PCBs...the way it is meant to be played and not on any other medium (whether it be console or PC). ^_~

It would seem that Cave is trying to promote the international hobbyists Supergun/Japanese arcade cabinet scene if they wish to release their current PCBs as is only and in no other ported formats...is that a good thing or not? Cave is already known as a premire arcade game developer and continues to do so for now. (However, in the nearby future, they may have to adapt to the ever-changing arcade marketbase and develope for other platforms in order to survive/prosper)..... ^_~

Here's an analogy, Williams made only three different Pinball 2000 pinball tables and yet pinball went down the drain. Why? Because it was considered too expensive to develope for both hardware sides: for the pinball side and the game developement side. In order for Williams' stock shareholders to be happy, Williams had to quickly make a "big decision" as to whether or not to continue producing pinball games (which would ultimately affect the entire U.S. pinball industry as a whole -- Williams comprised of 80 to 90% of the U.S. pinball market at that current point in time) and pursue other means of bringing in revenue. And that was to continue developing/creating new slot machines, etc. for the gambling industry (where it continues to thrive to this very day)...

The question was asked: Will Williams ever go back to producing new pinball tables? The answer: If they can make a profit on them, then they will but the real answer is "no", they won't be making pinball games for the foreseeable future..... ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~