Your definition of a shoot-em-up

[DazTM]

I've always gone for the standard spaceship/vehicle mowing down waves of enemies. But if that's the example of a true shmup where do the following fit in...

Robotron: 2084
Rez
Panzer Dragoon
Major Havok
Space War
Mercs
Forgotten Worlds

[Arvandor]

Some consider them shoot'em ups, some don't, they all have sub-genres like "run 'n' gun" or whatnot, but the general consensus is that they're all "borderliners." Which is to say a shoot 'em up, but not quite =P

From our Glossary

Borderliner: Broad term used to describe “shooting” games that many, but not all, players do not consider to quite qualify technically as shmups. Examples include “Run n’ Gun” shooters (Contra, Metal Slug), “Rail” shooters (Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox), and “Tube” shooters (Gyruss). As with shmups themselves, there really is no hard-and-fast definition of what exactly constitutes a “borderliner,” and individual conceptions of it vary widely.

[shoe-sama]

1 of many criteria
You have to actually dodge stuff.

YAY

[CIT]

Any game where you shoot something is a shoot 'em up afaiac.

[shinsage]

Robotron: 2084 - arena shooter
Rez - on-rails shooter a la Star Fox
Panzer Dragoon - read above
Major Havok - never played
Space War - read above
Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no
Forgotten Worlds - the only shmup on this list

[Rob]

Any game made by Takumi in 1999 and 2000 that isn't Medal Panic.

[Grant Windsor]

Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no

Which would sink Twinkle Tale on the MD (which some consider to be a shmup...I don't), but not games like Undead Line and Elemental Master, also on the MD...games with a forced scroll. However, then you get into a problem area with games like Granada on MD and Metal Stoker on PCE...tank shooting games without a forced scroll and games generally considered to be shmups. On a basic level, there is really no difference between games like this and Twinkle Tale...except you are a tank instead of a person. There is a lot of gray area here. Also, non-scrolling games like Space Invaders and the many knock-offs it spawned are considered to be shmups...but some people consider Space Raiders on GC/PS2 to be an action/shooting game. However, with the exception of being a person, this game plays exactly like Space Invaders. Those "on-rail" shooters...eh...I just categorize them as "3D shooters" and leave it at that.

[Nuke]

If it shoots, has them, and is up, then it's a shoot 'em up.

[Ed Oscuro]

Any game made by Takumi in 1999 and 2000 that isn't Medal Panic.

Most any game by Toaplan that isn't Get Star or, er, that goofy-ass breakout derivative.

[Shatterhand]

Does anyone think In The Hunt is not a shmup because it doesn't have forced scroll?

DazTM, you got yourself in dangerous territory with this question. There will be hundreds of replies and not a definitive answer, I guess

Rez, Panzer Dragoon and Mercs definitively are not shmups. Rez also is the MOST OVERRATED GAME EVER ...

I wouldn't classify either Robotron or Space War as shmups, but Forgotten Worlds qualify.

So.. erm... I agree with shinsage.

A shmup requires that you control something that shoots at enemies (Every Extend is out?), and those enemies shoot back at you. The action must happen ONLY in 2 axis. The point of view doesn't matter, as long as the main action only happens in 2 axis. Scroll must be forced (Leaving In The Hunt out?). Your character also can't "jump" (like Sonic jumps), unless this jump exists only to make you avoid incoming dangers (Like Undeadline, Aleste Gaiden, Last Duel) . You also should not have complete freedom to change the direction of your shots, but if you can change it through a gimmick that shortens your freedom, its ok (Side Arms, Forgotten Worlds, Gunsmoke... wait, all Capcom games? ), and you should have direct control of the movement of your "avatar", unlike games like Asteroids, where you "rotate and acellerate".

Reading all this... I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.

[D]

I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.

Look, we the shmups community have to draw the line somewhere. No fixed scrolling can never be a shmup. As far as In the Hunt goes, it is not a shmup, by these rules. Although it looks like a shmup that they just took the fixed scrolling out of. Perhaps it had too much slow down and in a last second attempt they removed the fixed scrolling. So there, In the Hunt is not a shmup, because it plays very differently. I would consider In the hunt a game just like Galaxy Zone and those games where you can go left and right, not a shmup. Because there is emphasis on where you're going/speed means less manic gameplay. That's why this community says automate the scrolling, we'll do the blasting/dodging. Are you guys with me on this?
Seen alot of these threads lately surely this is stated in a sticky somewhere. Or on wikipedia? An idea?

[j^aws]

It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...

[Shatterhand]

I really don't care too much Notice that I made the description based in what the community believes and said forced scroll is needed, THEN I added a personal view.

Galaxy Force has 3 axis of action, that's why it doesn't qualify as a shmups. Much like Zaxxon.

Is Moon Patrol a shmup?

[JoshF]

I just looked at the obi strip on my copy of Katei Daisensou. It says "ボーダーライナー"

[Ceph]

I'll probably post something later...

Please don't.

[j^aws]

I'll probably post something later...

Please don't.

Don't like my opinions? Don't read them.

[dmauro]

Shoot 'Em Up: It has to be vertical

[JoshF]

Score counter must be 7 digits long (more is considered nü shmup.)

[Andi]

If it shoots, has them, and is up, then it's a shoot 'em up.

Correct.

[Icarus]

It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...

If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.

Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.

And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.

[j^aws]

It would be interesting to also know:

1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age

... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.

I'll probably post something later...

If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.

Interesting. Yet no one forces you to play them?

Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.

Yeah, I've skimmed a few of those: Posted plenty of my opinions in the last 2006 Top 25 discussion thread too... (Drama!)

Are you inferring why the thread is still open? There's a MOD in this thread (Shatterhand) and its been left open... Why am I suddenly detecting 'angst' in this thread?... I blame my avatar! ... "It's an Alien! Shoot it!"

And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.

Nice. You still play Stargate?... I loved the Arcade version... couldn't get into any other versions due to significant control/ gameplay changes, though the MAT and MAME versions are pretty close...

Outside forums: I've never cared much myself of the "definition"... I vaguely remember reading some stuff in magazines during the 80's but didn't pay much attention...

Eligibility for the Annual Top 25 and being 'on-topic' seems to spark the debate on the matter: Understandable because those lists can be very 'personal'...

[j^aws]

...
Is Moon Patrol a shmup?

How can you answer that without 'defining' what a shmup is?

[professor ganson]

The following definition of a shmup is sufficient for most purposes: a 2D shooter with character movement up, down, left, and right and forced scrolling, games like Gradius, R-Type, and DDP. There is a point to having a category of this sort because so many games are modelled after Gradius, R-Type, and the like, and are quite different from other 2D shooters like Contra/Metal Slug and Robotron/Geometry Wars and...

This definition will not suit all needs, of course.

[Rob]

While autoscroll is common it isn't a necessary element. Ex. A: Fantasy Zone. There's no way Fantasy Zone is anything but a 2D space shooter.

[Shatterhand]

I think in Fantasy Zone the screen keeps scrolling all the time, even if in a very slow speed. Or am I wrong? (Guess when you are on ground, it will eventually stop scrolling if you don't keep moving with it)

Defender in the other side doesn't keep scrolling.

[j^aws]

...
Defender in the other side doesn't keep scrolling.

... And Space Invaders doesn't scroll at all!

Defender has a 2-way stick like SI... just moving up/ down and using 'reverse' is like 2 SI games being played simultaneously, although horizontally!

[professor ganson]

Space Invaders and Defender are (strictly speaking) proto-shmups. (Just as some animals might be said to have "proto-beliefs", psychological states that are very much belief-like, but not strictly speaking beliefs.)

[JoshF]

Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.

Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)

Fucking stone-age.

[Asherdude]

Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.

Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)

Fucking stone-age.

Back in the day, all of those were called "shooters" - a game who's scoring system is based on shooting things. Back then, if someone were to mention "run-n-gun", we wouldn't know what you were talking about. So, I agree with Malc's original opinion to include Contra HC in the Xenocide Files. All of these "sub-genre's" are only serving to dilute an already small gaming category.

Exclude "In The Hunt"? <shakes head> At this rate you guys are going to want to exclude Guwange, because it has people running around on the ground.

[JoshF]

Fascism. Shooting games are diverse, what you call a shmup is really a sub-category. Focusing on them is a misrepresentation of the genre.