Your definition of a shoot-em-up
Your definition of a shoot-em-up
I've always gone for the standard spaceship/vehicle mowing down waves of enemies. But if that's the example of a true shmup where do the following fit in...
Robotron: 2084
Rez
Panzer Dragoon
Major Havok
Space War
Mercs
Forgotten Worlds
Robotron: 2084
Rez
Panzer Dragoon
Major Havok
Space War
Mercs
Forgotten Worlds
Some consider them shoot'em ups, some don't, they all have sub-genres like "run 'n' gun" or whatnot, but the general consensus is that they're all "borderliners." Which is to say a shoot 'em up, but not quite =P
From our Glossary
Borderliner: Broad term used to describe “shooting” games that many, but not all, players do not consider to quite qualify technically as shmups. Examples include “Run n’ Gun” shooters (Contra, Metal Slug), “Rail” shooters (Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox), and “Tube” shooters (Gyruss). As with shmups themselves, there really is no hard-and-fast definition of what exactly constitutes a “borderliner,” and individual conceptions of it vary widely.
From our Glossary
Borderliner: Broad term used to describe “shooting” games that many, but not all, players do not consider to quite qualify technically as shmups. Examples include “Run n’ Gun” shooters (Contra, Metal Slug), “Rail” shooters (Panzer Dragoon, Star Fox), and “Tube” shooters (Gyruss). As with shmups themselves, there really is no hard-and-fast definition of what exactly constitutes a “borderliner,” and individual conceptions of it vary widely.
Last edited by Arvandor on Tue May 29, 2007 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Your definition of a shoot-em-up
Robotron: 2084 - arena shooter
Rez - on-rails shooter a la Star Fox
Panzer Dragoon - read above
Major Havok - never played
Space War - read above
Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no
Forgotten Worlds - the only shmup on this list
Rez - on-rails shooter a la Star Fox
Panzer Dragoon - read above
Major Havok - never played
Space War - read above
Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no
Forgotten Worlds - the only shmup on this list
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Re: Your definition of a shoot-em-up
Which would sink Twinkle Tale on the MD (which some consider to be a shmup...I don't), but not games like Undead Line and Elemental Master, also on the MD...games with a forced scroll. However, then you get into a problem area with games like Granada on MD and Metal Stoker on PCE...tank shooting games without a forced scroll and games generally considered to be shmups. On a basic level, there is really no difference between games like this and Twinkle Tale...except you are a tank instead of a person. There is a lot of gray area here. Also, non-scrolling games like Space Invaders and the many knock-offs it spawned are considered to be shmups...but some people consider Space Raiders on GC/PS2 to be an action/shooting game. However, with the exception of being a person, this game plays exactly like Space Invaders. Those "on-rail" shooters...eh...I just categorize them as "3D shooters" and leave it at that.shinsage wrote:Mercs - does not autoscroll, so no
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Nuke
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If it shoots, has them, and is up, then it's a shoot 'em up.
Trek trough the Galaxy on silver wings and play football online.
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Shatterhand
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Does anyone think In The Hunt is not a shmup because it doesn't have forced scroll?
DazTM, you got yourself in dangerous territory with this question. There will be hundreds of replies and not a definitive answer, I guess
Rez, Panzer Dragoon and Mercs definitively are not shmups. Rez also is the MOST OVERRATED GAME EVER ...
I wouldn't classify either Robotron or Space War as shmups, but Forgotten Worlds qualify.
So.. erm... I agree with shinsage.
A shmup requires that you control something that shoots at enemies (Every Extend is out?), and those enemies shoot back at you. The action must happen ONLY in 2 axis. The point of view doesn't matter, as long as the main action only happens in 2 axis. Scroll must be forced (Leaving In The Hunt out?). Your character also can't "jump" (like Sonic jumps), unless this jump exists only to make you avoid incoming dangers (Like Undeadline, Aleste Gaiden, Last Duel) . You also should not have complete freedom to change the direction of your shots, but if you can change it through a gimmick that shortens your freedom, its ok (Side Arms, Forgotten Worlds, Gunsmoke... wait, all Capcom games? ), and you should have direct control of the movement of your "avatar", unlike games like Asteroids, where you "rotate and acellerate".
Reading all this... I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.
DazTM, you got yourself in dangerous territory with this question. There will be hundreds of replies and not a definitive answer, I guess
Rez, Panzer Dragoon and Mercs definitively are not shmups. Rez also is the MOST OVERRATED GAME EVER ...
I wouldn't classify either Robotron or Space War as shmups, but Forgotten Worlds qualify.
So.. erm... I agree with shinsage.
A shmup requires that you control something that shoots at enemies (Every Extend is out?), and those enemies shoot back at you. The action must happen ONLY in 2 axis. The point of view doesn't matter, as long as the main action only happens in 2 axis. Scroll must be forced (Leaving In The Hunt out?). Your character also can't "jump" (like Sonic jumps), unless this jump exists only to make you avoid incoming dangers (Like Undeadline, Aleste Gaiden, Last Duel) . You also should not have complete freedom to change the direction of your shots, but if you can change it through a gimmick that shortens your freedom, its ok (Side Arms, Forgotten Worlds, Gunsmoke... wait, all Capcom games? ), and you should have direct control of the movement of your "avatar", unlike games like Asteroids, where you "rotate and acellerate".
Reading all this... I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.
Look, we the shmups community have to draw the line somewhere. No fixed scrolling can never be a shmup. As far as In the Hunt goes, it is not a shmup, by these rules. Although it looks like a shmup that they just took the fixed scrolling out of. Perhaps it had too much slow down and in a last second attempt they removed the fixed scrolling. So there, In the Hunt is not a shmup, because it plays very differently. I would consider In the hunt a game just like Galaxy Zone and those games where you can go left and right, not a shmup. Because there is emphasis on where you're going/speed means less manic gameplay. That's why this community says automate the scrolling, we'll do the blasting/dodging. Are you guys with me on this?Shatterhand wrote:I think I don't agree with the "forced scroll" bit, as this leaves In The Hunt and lots of "protoshmups" out.
Seen alot of these threads lately surely this is stated in a sticky somewhere. Or on wikipedia? An idea?
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Shatterhand
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I just looked at the obi strip on my copy of Katei Daisensou. It says "ボーダーライナー"
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Score counter must be 7 digits long (more is considered nü shmup.)
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If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.j^aws wrote:It would be interesting to also know:
1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age
... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.
I'll probably post something later...
Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.
And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.
Interesting. Yet no one forces you to play them?Icarus wrote:If this and the OP's question were RPG monsters, they'd be the really annoying, constantly respawning, randomly-attacking-when-you're-ten-steps-away-from-the-nearest-savepoint, Firaga-fodder monsters.j^aws wrote:It would be interesting to also know:
1) Your 1st shmup
2) When you 1st played it
3) Your age
... for a 'correlation' on 'responses' in this thread to the OP.
I'll probably post something later...
Yeah, I've skimmed a few of those: Posted plenty of my opinions in the last 2006 Top 25 discussion thread too... (Drama!)Icarus wrote: Been there, done that. Lots of past threads on the matter.
Are you inferring why the thread is still open? There's a MOD in this thread (Shatterhand) and its been left open... Why am I suddenly detecting 'angst' in this thread?... I blame my avatar! ... "It's an Alien! Shoot it!"
Nice. You still play Stargate?... I loved the Arcade version... couldn't get into any other versions due to significant control/ gameplay changes, though the MAT and MAME versions are pretty close...Icarus wrote: And answering them for the billionth time:
1) First shmup? - Stargate, Atari 2600
2) When you first played it? - six years old, nearly 20 years ago
3) Your age? - 25yrs and 10mths
4) What is a shmup? - a miserable little pile of bullets.
Outside forums: I've never cared much myself of the "definition"... I vaguely remember reading some stuff in magazines during the 80's but didn't pay much attention...
Eligibility for the Annual Top 25 and being 'on-topic' seems to spark the debate on the matter: Understandable because those lists can be very 'personal'...
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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professor ganson
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The following definition of a shmup is sufficient for most purposes: a 2D shooter with character movement up, down, left, and right and forced scrolling, games like Gradius, R-Type, and DDP. There is a point to having a category of this sort because so many games are modelled after Gradius, R-Type, and the like, and are quite different from other 2D shooters like Contra/Metal Slug and Robotron/Geometry Wars and...
This definition will not suit all needs, of course.
This definition will not suit all needs, of course.
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Shatterhand
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... And Space Invaders doesn't scroll at all!Shatterhand wrote: ...
Defender in the other side doesn't keep scrolling.
Defender has a 2-way stick like SI... just moving up/ down and using 'reverse' is like 2 SI games being played simultaneously, although horizontally!
"All that matters really is taste. He might like the game, he might not." - Anonymous
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professor ganson
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Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.
Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)
Fucking stone-age.
Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)
Fucking stone-age.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss
Back in the day, all of those were called "shooters" - a game who's scoring system is based on shooting things. Back then, if someone were to mention "run-n-gun", we wouldn't know what you were talking about. So, I agree with Malc's original opinion to include Contra HC in the Xenocide Files. All of these "sub-genre's" are only serving to dilute an already small gaming category.JoshF wrote:Why use the Japanese system when we can invent rigid elite fake-scientific cerebral masturbation criteria? Here it is in case you're wondering just how bad it is.
Shooting (Galaga, Gradius, Fantasy Zone, Katei Daisensou)
Action Shooting (Twinkle Tale, Metal Slug)
3D Shooting (Afterburner, Zaxxon, Doom)
Fucking stone-age.
Exclude "In The Hunt"? <shakes head> At this rate you guys are going to want to exclude Guwange, because it has people running around on the ground.
Fascism. Shooting games are diverse, what you call a shmup is really a sub-category. Focusing on them is a misrepresentation of the genre.
MegaShock! | @ YouTube | Latest Update: Metal Slug No Up Lever No Miss