"That life bar crap"-Can a good shmup have it?

[Regulus]

A lot of shmups with lifebars are horrible, and I think it has to do with the previously mentioned idea that those kinds aren't usually developed by those as familiar shmups as we usually see. Case in point: Nanostray and Iridion II (not awful, I guess, just... not good). But there are also some awesome games like 1941. The Silpheed games aren't awful either (just... bland).

[sfried]

These are just the exceptions. Everyone knows that most shmups with a lifebar are no good. Of course, there's probably a reason for this--most shmups with lifebars are not made in Japan.

Magical Chase was not made in Japan?

A lot of shmups with lifebars are horrible, and I think it has to do with the previously mentioned idea that those kinds aren't usually developed by those as familiar shmups as we usually see. Case in point: Nanostray and Iridion II (not awful, I guess, just... not good). But there are also some awesome games like 1941. The Silpheed games aren't awful either (just... bland).

That's because both Shin'En games and Silpheed used a gradual life bar, whereas 1941 used the three-hits-and-you're-out system I was talking about.

[BrianC]

These are just the exceptions. Everyone knows that most shmups with a lifebar are no good.

I feel it depends on the game and how well the life bar is used. There are plenty of good shmups with life bars, not just the ones made by Capcom and the others mentioned already. Pop 'n Twinbee uses a life bar. It is a very good shump and one of the best in the series IMO.

A lot of shmups with lifebars are horrible, and I think it has to do with the previously mentioned idea that those kinds aren't usually developed by those as familiar shmups as we usually see. Case in point: Nanostray and Iridion II (not awful, I guess, just... not good). But there are also some awesome games like 1941. The Silpheed games aren't awful either (just... bland).

That's because both Shin'En games and Silpheed used a gradual life bar, whereas 1941 used the three-hits-and-you're-out system I was talking about.

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I liked Nanostray and Iridion II quite a bit despite the flaws. They aren't perfect, but they do a lot of things right. The life meter isn't the problem with the games either.

1941 doesn't use a "three hits and you're out" system. If I remember correctly, some enemies take away two hits. Also, the life meter upgrades when you rank up at the end of a stage, so it doesn't stay at three hits.

[Twiddle]

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

[Davey]

1941 doesn't use a "three hits and you're out" system. If I remember correctly, some enemies take away two hits.

I guess that answers my question. I wonder if this kind of thing would be more appealing to mainstream gamers (for better or for worse). It'd be a lot less nerve-wracking. Do you think DDR would have ever taken off like it did if the only mode was Oni Mode? I doubt it. But that's basically how shmups work.

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

That problem isn't specific to life bars, though. Parsec47, by its nature, gets pretty uneven (and unfair) at times, although its extend system smooths things out more often than not.

[Icarus]

The problem I'm seeing in this thread is that there is a bit of confusion as to what constitutes a "life/energy gauge".

Many have got it correct by listing games such as 1941, 1944, Guwange, even the World version of XEXEX (although any purist will tell you that the World ver of XEXEX shouldn't even be classed as a game) as games that use the "life/energy gauge", as they are games that feature varying amounts of damage depending on the severity of the attack - bullets = tiny, FUCKING HUGE MISSILE = lots, crash = dead and so on.

There are some who are classifying the likes of Radirgy and Shikigami no Shiro as games that feature "life/energy gauge" which is incorrect. Taking Radirgy as an example, it is incorrect to assume that this uses an energy gauge, because even though thats what it appears to look like, every hit still takes off one block, not varying amounts. Big difference.

In response to the original question: yes, if done correctly an energy gauge can be a good system for a shootemup (see Guwange). If done poorly, it is just an excuse to design a game poorly (Tyrian), or to make a game seem more forgiving while hacking out the heart and soul (XEXEX World ver).

[Davey]

Taking Radirgy as an example, it is incorrect to assume that this uses an energy gauge, because even though thats what it appears to look like, every hit still takes off one block, not varying amounts.

Yeah, but your character doesn't totally explode every time it's hit, and your extra lives are indicated by green bars instead of little icons of your ship. Therefore, I say we break up Shmups Chat into One Hit Shmups Chat, Varying Damage Lifebar Shmups Chat, and Uniform Damage Lifebar Shmups Chat, just to keep things nice and organized.

[Icarus]

Yeah, but your character doesn't totally explode every time it's hit, and your extra lives are indicated by green bars instead of little icons of your ship.

Did you stop to think that "not exploding" (instant respawn effect) is a feature of a few shootemups that feature human-like player avatars (Esprade, Espgaluda, Guwange, Shikigami, Radirgy etc)?

Also, even though Radirgy displays lives as blocks in a gauge-style counter doesn't excuse the fact that the life counter does not behave like a variable gauge. You lose "lives" in these games just like any other shmup, not "life energy" as in Guwange and others.

Therefore, I say we break up Shmups Chat into One Hit Shmups Chat, Varying Damage Lifebar Shmups Chat, and Uniform Damage Lifebar Shmups Chat, just to keep things nice and organized.

?

[CMoon]

These are just the exceptions. Everyone knows that most shmups with a lifebar are no good. Of course, there's probably a reason for this--most shmups with lifebars are not made in Japan.

Magical Chase was not made in Japan?

That part where I said MOST was the ticket. And sure, there are lots of Japanese shmups with life meters, but far MORE without them, while life meters in western shmups seem to be a staple (though honestly, we're working with a really small data set here.

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

Basically my feeling on it. almost every shmup I've played with a life meter has had a sort of sloppy feel to it, and even the ones by developers we love often rank among the most questionable entries in my mind (not an attack on Guwane, please don't slay me!)

I'll admit the idea that small shots do little damage where big missles kill instantly is sort of an interesting concept but I find it doesn't make for the greatest gameplay.

[Davey]

?

I forgot the <sarcasm> tag.

[Icarus]

Ahh, so that was an attempt at humor.
FAIL. One life lost.

[<3] [<3] [...]

Why don't you try hard? ;P

[Iaspis]

one word: Xenon

[Super Laydock]

Yawn...

And thanks a lot Icarus, for lowering the chances of me getting my world version of Xexex sold ever even further.

[Icarus]

Yawn...
And thanks a lot Icarus, for lowering the chances of me getting my world version of Xexex sold ever even further.

Sorry, mate. -_-;;
If it makes any difference, I'm stuck with it as well. ^_-
(I have both JPN and World vers, however...)

[Davey]

Ahh, so that was an attempt at humor.
FAIL. One life lost.

Being from the UK, you probably didn't realize <sarcasm>us Midwesterners are known for sophisticated, intellectual wit.</sarcasm>

Why don't you try hard? ;P

It's a totally foreign concept to me.

[Pirate1019]

That problem isn't specific to life bars, though. Parsec47, by its nature, gets pretty uneven (and unfair) at times, although its extend system smooths things out more often than not.

Although the reason it's unfair isn't really because of sloppy design. It's because the game runs patterns at random. Tyrian (I'm pretty sure) has preset patterns with only slight variation and they just didn't try hard enough to make the game balanced.

[louisg]

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

The same thing can be applied to extra lives in a respawnable game, too. I mostly agree, though. A lifebar is one of those things that can tip the player off that the game is a damage absorption game and not a dodger.

Designing a level with the goal of letting a player complete the game without taking a hit makes games a lot more fair and crisp-- if only this were applied to more genres.

[sfried]

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

The same thing can be applied to extra lives in a respawnable game, too. I mostly agree, though. A lifebar is one of those things that can tip the player off that the game is a damage absorption game and not a dodger.

Designing a level with the goal of letting a player complete the game without taking a hit makes games a lot more fair and crisp-- if only this were applied to more genres.

At the same time, a small health bar can lead a player to a false sense of security, making them willing to play, only to find out that they will be on their toes from now on.
Thats what makes the three bar (or even maybe two) health complelling, because that sense of "You have one bar left you'd better dodge or you'll die!" comes in no time if you're wreckless. Plus, as Icarus said, big missiles or lasers should do more damage, maybe take a full two bars (As always, wall collision = death). In no time does the dodging aspect become the priority in order to survive.

Three bars is still strick, but at the same time fair and reasonable. (Upping difficulty would also mean a reduced bar guage. Two for Normal. One for Hard).

[Davey]

The thing with lifebars is that it gives some developers an excuse to not properly design enemy patterns or rank at all (see: Tyrian)

The same thing can be applied to extra lives in a respawnable game, too. I mostly agree, though. A lifebar is one of those things that can tip the player off that the game is a damage absorption game and not a dodger.

Designing a level with the goal of letting a player complete the game without taking a hit makes games a lot more fair and crisp-- if only this were applied to more genres.

I need to play a larger variety of shmups, since I'm about to use Parsec47 yet again as an example.

Parsec47 gives you extra lives pretty frequently; it's its way of balancing out unfair random patterns. However, it does more than that: it makes the game more forgiving. I like the fact that if I accidentally move one too many pixels to the left and die, I can always recoup if I continue to play well. There's a small point penalty for breaking your chain and missing some point cubes, but that's it. It's certainly less clean, but it also relieves the player from having to be perfect 100% of the time. It's less stressful when you die, because dying is inevitable (however, the game's stress level is still on par with other shmups due to its speed). It also adds a certain mystique to the game knowing that there's no such thing as a perfect game and that you can always do better, even if you make the occasional sloppy move (although that also stems from the fact that it never ends).

I see this as a good thing, but of course that's just a personal preference.

[stratos]

Are we talking about lifebars or about forgiving games?


Lifebar itself doesn't separate a forgiving game from a difficult one; Guwange isn't exactly what I call a forgiving game, because, even if you have lifebars, you lost your lifes preatty frequently if you don't know what you're doing, and also, if you play for score, you lose a great amount of your multiplier if hit, even if you loose only energy and not a full life.


Obviously, there are other games in wich lifebars are used to balance a game toward a more forgiving difficulty, but the existence of the bar itself means nothing.


So, be careful to not speak too generally

[Davey]

Lifebar itself doesn't separate a forgiving game from a difficult one; Guwange isn't exactly what I call a forgiving game, because, even if you have lifebars, you lost your lifes preatty frequently if you don't know what you're doing, and also, if you play for score, you lose a great amount of your multiplier if hit, even if you loose only energy and not a full life.

Guwange is a weird example. I haven't played it since last year's STGT, but I remember being able to take more hits in that game than in other Cave games. So from a survival standpoint, I think it is more forgiving. Score-wise, it's probably the least forgiving shmup I've ever played.

So, be careful to not speak too generally

Well, the problem with a topic like this is that if you really want to be correct, you have to look at things on a game-by-game basis. Obviously that's not feasible, so you end up making blanket statements that are true more often than not, but may have plenty of exceptions. Like any design choice (checkpoints, rank, etc.), whether its good or bad depends on how well it's implemented and how well it fits the game.

And, like any other thread, the actual topic at hand tends to change as the thread grows, for better or for worse.

[Veracity]

That is the most wildly inappropriate use of "a priori" I have ever seen

It was certainly unthinking/lazy/colloquial, but on reflection doesn't seem so outrageous a stretch: 'all good shmups use comically tiny hitboxes, so we shall' is (sort of) rationalist; 'what hitbox properties will work well for this game?' (sort of) empiricist. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've used a word thinking it means something entirely other than what it does, though, so feel free to correct if you can be arsed.

On the specificity thing, it's true that there's a distinction between fixed-decrease and variable-decrease hit points; the latter are probably more interesting to focus on if you're looking for interesting uses of the mechanic. There's also a difference between immediate respawn in place, and immediate respawn at default location, if we want to go positively periodic table about it - the former entirely indistinguishable from fixed-decrease hit points except through trivial presentation factors, the latter not quite the same. I'd tend to go with Davey's angle, though - if you're going to think about features outside the context of individual games, generalization is kind of inevitable.

[Iori Branford]

Not only is it possible, it is quite easy to eliminate any imbalance that comes with it. All it takes is one life, a larger hitbox, checkpoints, expensive extends, or any combination thereof. Ba-bam, balance restored.

Of course that's not going to help you if you play for the thrill of instant death, but still.

[Ed Oscuro]

Having multiple lives with instant respawns is the exact same thing as a life bar. If you can get hit so many time before you get game over, it doesn't matter whether it's a bar or a life counter.

Tradeoff with each - lifebars cover more background than a transparent number overlay, but easier to process mentally than a number (you don't need to look directly at 'em to know how you're doing, if it's well designed).

[szycag]

A good shmup can have one, but not a great shmup

[gameoverDude]

One game that gives you 3 lives but doesn't make enough noise about it when you die is R-Type Leo. It's an otherwise great game, but your ship's explosion is more of a lame "POOF" than a Raiden type cataclysm- and the accompanying sound is too quiet.

Shikigami does the damage gauge thing just fine. So does Guwange, where it's also broken into 3 sections and taking enough damage is like losing a life (i.e. almost like Dragon Saber in 2P mode, but you come back at the same spot on screen).

Senko no Ronde's "Vanish" system is a nice feature. When your lifebar is emptied, you have one last chance- even if it's a mighty slim one. Such a thing should've been used in 1943, where the lifebar ticks away like Gauntlet's health counter. For a non-shmup, Quartet did this- you might be on 0 health points, but you're still in the game as long as you don't take another hit.

[sfried]

A good shmup can have one, but not a great shmup

...And why so?

[Battlesmurf]

well, personally- a life bar to me takes away a sense of urgency- or a feeling of great accomplishment if I manage to make it a ways- makes things at least seem that much more 'hardcore'. I think the image of the lifebar also seems like a 'pansy' approach to those that are actually hardcore (I think I'm upper edge amateur or middle ground myself . I just play whatever is fun to me personally- I kind of like the lifebar in Contra myself

[toaplan_shmupfan]

Responding much later to an earlier thread...

Such a thing should've been used in 1943, where the lifebar ticks away like Gauntlet's health counter.

In both Capcom's 1943 and also in Capcom's Carrier Airwing, the lifebar gradually ticked away but got stuck at the last critical point and the alarm kept sounding to alert the player of the critical lifebar.

As far as I could tell, one could not go down to zero lifebar and also be forced into game over unless they sustained another hit after the lifebar has gone down to the most critical point and stayed there in most cases--the lifebar wouldn't go past critical or zero lifebar left into an automatic game over.

However, there were also some cases in 1943 where one might have had more than the most critical lifebar but a somewhat low lifebar, accidentally rammed a larger size plane or got hit by boss exploding shrapnel, and then went to zero lifebar and also game over in that single hit.

[MathU]

Works just fine in Karous.