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MovingTarget
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Post by MovingTarget »

:disclaimer: you have no doubt seen threads like this before so if you have i'm sorry :)
But anway!

I find it mindboggling how some people can be SO good at shmups. Is it a natural talent that practice only nurtures(sp?). Is it a Japanese trait? :) Can a shmupper who struggles to get past level 1 on the easiest of games(I''m not that bad but for example....) with enough practice reach the level of skill that makes 1ccing games a nescesity?

As far as practice goes, do you think theres a minium amount of time required of play each day to actually improve? I wonder if thats being a little too pedantic haha

Sometimes I feel i'm in this zone that people talk about, but then I normally die. Is my zone just not good enough? will my
zone ever be good enough? lol
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Post by 8 1/2 »

Two truths that I now know about playing shmups:

1) Just play what you like, and at some point you'll WANT to practice it as you come to understand it more. This could also be said as, "Only play what you love, and that love will bring focus with it as you find yourself lost in the game."

2) Skills don't necessarily transfer. You may conquer one shmup by a particular company (Cave or Raizing) and come to understand the patterns in another game by the same developer, but for the most part there's no such thing as an overridding "skill" for shmups. You have to stick to "your game." Deciding what that game will be, and sticking to it, is really one of the biggest challenges in the sea of titles out there.
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qatmix
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Post by qatmix »

Most shumps nowadays rely on the pattern dynamic which plays on learing a strategy to succesfully be able to complete the game. Less rely on the old school 'twitch' mechanic which would benefit those with good reflexes and hand / eye co-ordination.

All Shumps are a balance of the two, GigaWing2 for example would be a good example of a pattern game as you will learn from trial and error how to make it through the game without loosing a life. There are sections of the game where you need to use the reflect attack otherwise you will not be able to survive due to the screen havign no safe zone. No matter how quick your basic twitch skills are you are fubared, you will need to earn a strategy. (Ikaruga is also a bugger for this)

Terra cresta is a good example of a game which relies mainly on twitch gameplay as there is very little strategy, and there are never any gameplay segments where having razor sharp reflexes will not save you. Obviously no-one is a machine and thats how you end up loosign a life when your guard is down.

Obviously all shumps consist of a balance of the the two elements, but most of the recent shooters are much more pattern based.
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Post by Tar-Palantir »

But I don't think it can be said that mastering a shmup is like riding a bicycle...a lot of my skills have gone rusty in the past three months.
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Ganelon
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Post by Ganelon »

1. Get plenty of R&R and be at a ready state (e.g. don't be worrying about your job, tomorrow's exam, etc.). You can't play to your best ability after pulling off an all-nighter (as I am, writing a long-ass paper :cry: ) nor while thinking about something else while playing (of course, that's a tradeoff you should consider when you decide whether you should play games or not).

2. Natural talent and reflexes certainly affects how quickly you pick up and adjust to a game. For example, my reflexes suck. I can see how to evade a bullet pattern coming but my hand doesn't react in time. People like me will just naturally take longer to become good at, say, manic shmups.

3. Practice is the foremost trait. With enough practice and time, you'll eventually be able to conquer your games. Experience counts a lot, as well as memorization of the stages. If you don't know which direction the next enemy will come from, it's probably safe to say you haven't played the game enough.

4. Learn strategy from the pros. Ask here or anywhere on what methods to use when tackling on a certain boss pattern or something. You can see the strategy on superplays and adapt your own playstyle. If it's the weaving through patterns part you're amazed at, you'll need focus, reflexes, and experience knowing how to generally go around them.

When you're new to shooters, it's easy to question your abilities. AFAIK, the truth generally is that you just haven't had enough practice. Take it slow. Don't go lunging for points or even power-ups when you think you'll be put in danger (common newbie mistake I think). Don't keep moving to the side when dodging bullets; once you see a break, get back to the center where you have more room. Just focus and keep at it.
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Post by Randorama »

A very simplified, but scientifical nonetheless, explanation ( to some extent i work in the field and yes, i have a official piece of paper that says that, but i don't want to use it to sound more authoritative):

Shmups are a mix of a physical and intellectual practice. You may actually have a slight advantage than others in hand-eye coordination, but once we speak of incredibly complex tasks like one-lifing DOJ, you need to practice in order to learn the optimal (in the sense of the best) route to do that. If that route consists of 1 million movements, you need to learn them, pretty obvious: some people will learn them 10 at time, some 9, some 11, etc. This considerations are based on one simple principle, that you know what you-re doing and thus are able to correct yourself when not learning the right sequence (and also to find out the right sequence). This means that no, you have to think and solve the problem.

Once you know how to solve the problem, you compress it to a simpler form and once you do it one zillion times, it becomes like breathing, i.e. a mechanical cycli function stored in the cerebellum. Of course, if you learnt the wrong route and you've stored in your cerebellum in a compressed way, you will have an hard time to correct yourself (think of learning to walk in an unproper way and unlearn it to do it right).

Final point is the motivational issue: anything can be learnt, if you like what you're doing, you will probably go faster (and in this case, a talented person that faster by going at 11, will probably gear up at 12). If you hate it, you may slow down your learning speed. Finally, if you live in a place where everyone does a given thing, you can easily understand how to get the whole process in the right order, so you can virtually become good as the the best one around, just at a slower pace. In some exceptional cases (running 100 mts in les than 10", one-lifing DOJ with flawless combos), you may simply not be good enough, in the sense that it will take you forever. Those are exceptional cases.

One note on japanese culture: the ninja players around are all very talented, but they're also people that spend hundred of hours in practice, and in understanding all the subtle nuances of a game. It is true that, if you grow up in japanese culture, being extremely focused on what you do is the norm, so hundred of hours in something you like are actually the norm.
Add in that it's a pretty competitive culture and that being the best one at anything is worth of respect, and you've covered the social aspect.

Of course, a number of bizarre, irrational or simply non-sensical replies will follow, after all inferential reasoning seems to be lacking in some of the nice peeps posting here :lol:
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Post by Randorama »

Tar-Palantir wrote:But I don't think it can be said that mastering a shmup is like riding a bicycle...a lot of my skills have gone rusty in the past three months.
It's "competence vs performance", and of course you can't directly compare actions without stating their complexity. If you want to make an analogy, you always have to be careful in how "fine-grained" it is: that's why people usually pretend to prove themselves right or wrong, they make improper analogies and act like they are right :wink: In our case, it can be said that if you do...i don't, extreme biking and you don't practice for months, you'll also get rusty.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Post by Ganelon »

Complexity, personal affinity with the task, time and effort spent, a memorable event while doing the task (related somewhat to personal affinity), time since having last performed the task... all these factors (and likely more) affect how well you pick something else again.

And yeah, it's said that truly hardcore players (the shooter players who go through 2nd loops like nothing or fighter players who can infinite you at will) spend almost fulltime job's worth of time playing games a day. Is that worth it to you? However long you spend on games will reflect in less time for everything else.
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Post by chtimi-CLA »

Of course specific practice is needed with every title, but i find some skills are reusable for all manic shmups.

1/ Bullet-herding
self-explanatory. In big collision area non-manics it's even more essential, that's why i consider Twin Cobra to be an excellent practice shmup for beginners.

2/"Bullet-clearing", that is the action of moving up past a spread you just dodged.

2/ Reflexes
self-explanatory

3/ What i would call "focus area agility"

This one is less obvious.
What i call the focus area is where you concentrate your staring, the rest of the screen being (hopefully) taken care of by peripheral vision.
You know how it is important to look ahead of the ship with fast patterns, and directly at your ship for slow tight patterns.
That is, the faster and more linear, the farther ahead the focus area.
Conversely, the slower and messier, the closer the focus area.
The hard part with manics is that you consistently have to switch between a close focus area and a remote one: typically while you're doing a left-->right sweep you use a remote focus area, but when you have to negotiate the turn around at the right edge, you have to switch to a close focus area. Many Cave bosses make you switch your focus mode between 2 successive patterns (a good example is ketsui boss 4).
The problem is that when you're in remote focus area mode, it's harder to switch to close mode than the opposite. You have to make a conscious effort to do so.
The best players do this very well, it's obvious from say Clover-TAC videos.

4/ Cleanness of moves
That's when there are no parasite moves. It's easier to achieve if you practice on simple short up-down moves. Everybody does left-right well but many have a tendency to use diagonals too much, which is less accurate on close dodges

5/ Aggressivity and upward placement
When i started playing i was always on the baseline a la Galaga, well this doesn't work at all in manics. You have to be comfortable with all parts of the screen.
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Post by Tar-Palantir »

Yeah...I wasn't really paying attention. Maybe I should start a thread on it.
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Post by Shatterhand »

chtimi wrote:5/ Aggressivity and upward placement
When i started playing i was always on the baseline a la Galaga, well this doesn't work at all in manics. You have to be comfortable with all parts of the screen.
I always used the whole screen for my shmupping..

But after playing Sonic Wings Special, now I stay at TOP of the screen most of time in my vert shmups.

In SWS, there are bonus items that are worthy more points if you collect then at the top of the screen (The closer to the top, more points they are worthy). Because of this, I SWS, whenever I know there will be lots of those tokens coming, I just stay at the VERY TOP OF THE SCREEN.

And I "transfered" this to other shmups. Not always exactly at TOP, but close to the TOP.

It's stupid sometimes. Sometimes it's very useful.

For getting good at shmupping... I guess you should not worry about that really. Just play a shmup that you enjoy playing, and the 1cc will come with time. I am no GOD shmup player, but neither I am a crap one (I have a few 1CCs under my belt :D), but every shmup I 1cced, It never felt like I was just "doing my job". It just came naturally after some time ENJOYING the game (E.G. , if I ever 1cc Radiant Silvergun, it's because someone put a gun in my head and told me to do it, instead of just having fun with the game)

I have a couple of friends that used to SUCK at shmups, and after me introducing them to the genre, they begun to get better and better with time, but only at the games they enjoy (One likes the Gradius games, other like Cave stuff! :D).

Getting your ass kicked its part of the fun, ya know, in any genre of gaming. Just enjoy the whole experience, either you are winning or losing.
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MovingTarget
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Post by MovingTarget »

wow, some fantastic posts there :)
chtimi wrote: That is, the faster and more linear, the farther ahead the focus area.
Conversely, the slower and messier, the closer the focus area.
The hard part with manics is that you consistently have to switch between a close focus area and a remote one: typically while you're doing a left-->right sweep
I was doing this for the first time last night and i really noticed a diference! Normally i look at the enemies and bullets and try to guide my ship through which is normally in my peripheral vision. For the complex bullet patterns it does really help to force yourself to look at the space much nearer the ship


Thanks for the great posts everyone.

One point I think makes quite a diference in your form is confidence combined with your stress level... ie the greater your confidence and less stress makes a big diference I think :) Less stress helps you concentrate, more confidence means uhhh.. less stress hehehe
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Post by system11 »

Some people will always suck at shmups, some will always be exceptional. It is the way of things. Those same people who are good, may suck at games the sucky shmup players excel at. Everyone is different.

I was, and sometimes still am good at the old style shmups where reactions were the key requirement, playing totally on the fly.

I have tremendous problems with many of the modern games that require memorisation - Gunbird 2 being a good example - if you don't know where to be and what to melee attack, you're basically screwed. Same with most Cave games, you need to know what's coming before it has, for placement. I'm unable to memorise things unless I play them past the point at which they become a chore - playing games is supposed to be fun. I will never 1 credit DDPDOJ.

On the upside - there were maybe 4 or 5 guys who could reliably stand a chance against me on Midnight Club 2 'back in the day' when it was still busily played online.

We're all good to different levels at different things, and no amount of practise will change that - although it will let you make the best of the natural ability you have. Don't get disheartened - play and enjoy.
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Post by dboeren »

Well, if you accept that you won't reach the highest heights, you can still play modern games based on twitch instinct and have fun. I don't try to memorize games, but on a decent run I can get to level 5 on Strikers 1945 II and most of the way through level 4 on Gunbird 2. I'll never clear the second loop, but I have fun just playing.

You do pick up small amounts of memorization even without trying. From experience, you will just know that the boss on stage 3 opens with a fast stream of bullets straight down, and so you'll know to stand a little to the side when he appears. This level of "memorization" I do not find offensive. I just don't like it so much when it's at the level of "you have to stand exactly on the 3rd tree to the left to survive the first wave, then move northeast 2 inches on top of the windmill to survive the 2nd wave".
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Post by MovingTarget »

In my opinion I think the less memorisation required the better, i think its cheap in a game when your expected to know something from a previous play through. On the other hand, certain gun patterns that you play through earlier in the game can be developed and made more complex as the game progresses, so that if your on the ball you can adapt as you would have remembered the safe spots from earlier.

On what Randorama was saying, I think being around people who are at an advanced level makes a big diference in the rate of your own development. Its like in other sports and graffiti too, without a friend or friends to compete against you just dont progress as fast, I think theres other factors involved in this as well, but basically from my experience, being around a lot of peopel who are at an advanced level at something you are trying to learn will help significantly.... ( behold the spaghetti junction that is my thought processes :D)
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Post by MovingTarget »

And of course because its so common in Japan it kind of feeds off of itself over there, if you know what I mean...
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Post by Ganelon »

MovingTarget wrote:I think being around people who are at an advanced level makes a big diference in the rate of your own development.
That's actually a generally accepted fact in economics, politics, psychology, etc. When you're challenged or in the company of rivals, everybody strives harder and does better. That's why the Japanese tend to have great fighting game players: everybody lives so close that they can organize weekly tourneys with great turnout while everybody increases their skill together. And if you think on the opposite extreme, playing against a 4-year old will almostnever help you improve your skills against experts but may rather make them rusty from disuse/lack of proper use.
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Post by Rob »

MovingTarget wrote:In my opinion I think the less memorisation required the better, i think its cheap in a game when your expected to know something from a previous play through.
If you eliminated anything that could take a player by surprise on the first play you'd end up with a brainless Compile game.
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Post by MovingTarget »

Not nescarily, surely you've overcome surprising obstacles in gameplay on your first play through? I Just think instances where being in the wrong place(where its not immediately obvious) at the wrong time means instant death is cheap. It just requires more creativity to design, although I suppose finding the right balance is never going to be easy
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Post by TVG »

so you want to 1CC games on your first try? trial and error, finding strategies, being surprised etc...is half the fun.

as rob said, play compile games lol
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Post by MovingTarget »

I think in theory a shmup should be completable by a very good player who is on form on one of their first tries... While still being challenging of course. In practice the times you die you'll know you could of avoided death if only you were a little sharper. And by good player I actually mean perfect player lol. I know it sounds daft but it makes sense to me, as even the best players can struggle to maintain a high level of concentration for over half an hour. I think shmups can still be very demanding without actually requiring memorisation.

Then on the other hand I dont really know what I'm talking about :) Would anyone like to explain compile? Is that a developer known for a particular type of shmup?
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Post by Ganelon »

Yeah, Compile makes long, easy shooters where the bullets are in general easily dodged despite the hitboxes being about ship-size. Memorization and fast reflexes aren't really required as long as you pay attention to the screen.

You might want to try Gekirindan then if you want a shooter completeable without a feeling of unfairness on the first try. There's nothing that you can't avoid there given a basic understanding of shooters although on later playthroughs it only gets easier and easier.

But really, if you didn't need memory to 1CC shmups, we'd have 1CCs left and right. Unchallenging shooters are less fun than brutal shooters IMO (but then again, I'm a masochist who loves the Image Fight series).
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Post by MovingTarget »

I think shienryu explosion is a lot like the type of game you just described, and to be honest I dont think I'l be playing it for quite awhile after 1ccing it on my 4th or 5th go. So theres the issue about lifespan...

Partly the reason I've been anti memorisation is my annoyance at the souky glitch which makes practice mode impossible to play. WHich means its a lot harder getting good at the later stages, thats also to do with my laziness aswell though :roll:
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Post by Ganelon »

Exactly, which is why memorization is a must. It's not easy to play DDP for the first time and just 1CC it. Some parts may even seem unfair or impossible at first. But keep at it and you'll quickly realize that all it took was practice. That's where you get replay value. If all games were as you stated, great players could be done with the game in an hour. Yeah, they could go for a high score but they probably wouldn't find it interesting enough to try.

You could try an easily progressive game like Batsugun or its Special Ver. where the progression is very gradual and the whole game is quite on the easy side. Master Batsugun Special Ver.'s loops (don't worry; you can definitely at least 1CC it if you try) and you'll be at a state where your overall concentration and focus will improve, allowing you to more easily tackle other shooters. While it's certainly true that performance in one game will not reflect performance in another game, you can certainly develop basic shmup techniques along the way.

Laziness might have to do with playing a game you don't really enjoy. Make sure you really want to play it. If you think it's not worth the time, that game probably isn't worth it for you. If you think no shmup is worth weeks of effort, then perhaps being a casual shmupper is what'll fit you best.

And what's this glitch with Soukyugurentai? Don't believe I've heard it before.
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Post by Specineff »

I was able to one-life Thunder Force V in Maniac/Master once, and then my skills seemed to decline from that moment on. However, I was able to one-life Power Strike on the SMS too, a few weeks ago.
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Post by MovingTarget »

The glitch happens when you try to play soukyugurentai(not the revised edition) with a Pal saturn(possibly US aswell) by using a 4in1 ram cart. The glitch causes the text in the main game to get messed up if you skip the intro although it goes away after the first level. In practice mode however the whole screen gets covered in what looks like speech marks and it makes it impossible to play.

And batsugun has been at the top of my list of 'to get games' for a while now :D
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Post by AiD »

I believe it all boils down to cetain things

1 . To be really good it doesnt matter how much you play/practice you will only ever be able to reach your own personal maximum potential, set your own goals and targets.

2. some people are lucky enough to be blessed with natural skills and can rely on them to beat your best efforts without even trying.

3. And then you come to the lucky bastards blessed with the natural skills and the desire to hone them to push scores into unattainable levels (no matter how long you try/practice) to the average player :)

mother natures/ shmups/ survivable of the fitest will always prevail
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Post by TVG »

AiD wrote:I believe it all boils down to cetain things

1 . To be really good it doesnt matter how much you play/practice you will only ever be able to reach your own personal maximum potential, set your own goals and targets.

2. some people are lucky enough to be blessed with natural skills and can rely on them to beat your best efforts without even trying.

3. And then you come to the lucky bastards blessed with the natural skills and the desire to hone them to push scores into unattainable levels (no matter how long you try/practice) to the average player :)

mother natures/ shmups/ survivable of the fitest will always prevail
i think thats more or less bullshit, yes some people are better that some stuff at others (ie: reflexes etc) but as long as you enjoy what you're doing you'll see progress.

now if you become super anal, set clear goals etc, you will get frustrated, wont enjoy yourself, not only that, but you'll put unecessary pressure on yourself, because face it, doing good for 40 minutes is a lot about nerve conditionning, and then you're facing this last boss, 2 minutes to go, better not screw up!!!!!
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Post by Ganelon »

In practice mode however the whole screen gets covered in what looks like speech marks and it makes it impossible to play.
Ahh, I knew about the this screen glitch but wasn't aware that it affected practice mode as well. Yeah, that's a pity.

As for Batsugun, great! I'd consider it one of the key transitional shooters not only by itself for pretty much inventing manic shmups but also for developing skills from a beginner to a veteran. I remember back before Batsugun, I sucked. It was only dodging through its patterns that I gradually became experienced enough with manics (which I tend to perform poorly at) to 1CC Dodonpachi. Best of luck to ya!
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Post by 8 1/2 »

@Randorama

I used to take some offence at your hard-edged approach to gaming when I first started reading your posts. You can be a bit of a taskmaster. But now, I totally appreciate the way you play these games and also the way you raise the bar for all of us. Honestly, sometimes I'll be frustrated with a game, just about to give up, and I'll think, "Man, Rando would kill me for such soft thinking," and I'll keep going.
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