Toaplan version check

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:20 pm

okay, I´ve been curious about Toaplan since I first heard Seibu Kaihatsu made Raiden as a homage to their games. Although I was going to arcades pretty often around 1990, there weren´t that many Toaplan games around, the only ones I remember being Twin Cobra and Truxton 2. I wasn´t into consoles at the time, so I it wasn´t until recently when someone mentioned that a few 16bit conversions had been improved from their arcade original, that I realized how many Toaplan games are availlable for the Sega Genesis/Megadrive.
Now, a few weeks ago, someone who sold a Neo Geo stick for cheap also had a Megadrive on offer for a measly €10, so I didn´t think twice and just bought that, too. Since there doesn´t seem any other way to obtain Megadrive games locally, I finally gave in and registered an ebay account to buy a few, and I´ve been on a nice little buying spree in recent weeks. But another thing that is availlable on ebay are Toaplan PCBs, way cheaper than ordering them at HK retailers. Price differences between MD and PCB versions are pretty small, in some cases the MD version can even get more expensive, being the collector´s item some of these games are.
What I would like to know is: which games are better on MD (or maybe other consoles), in which respect are they better, and which games are better in their original arcade version? As I´m not that familiar with the subject, I´m also interested in a simple list which Toaplan games exist at all, and how they play. From what I bought already, I find both Twin Hawk and Hellfire very impressive. Two days ago I played Fire Shark/Same Same Same at a friend´s place, and it made my "need to buy"-list pretty fast. However, I only know the MD version now, how does it compare to the PCB counterpart? Twin Cobra, he told me, is clearly worse on MD.

Post by **Ghegs** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:22 pm

I just got curious about how home ports of Toaplan games fare against the arcade originals myself, but I'm more interested about the PCE ports, few as they are. I just played some Truxton/Tatsujin on both MD and PCE, and the MD one is significantly easier, not to mention a whole lotta cheaper too...

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:39 pm

For games and list of home ports available, try fansite http://www.toaplan.com

Fire Shark (Genesis*) plays well when compared to the PCB, but they are not exactly the same game. The home release changes around parts of a few stages and adds side-to-side scrolling. No Tate in the Genesis version, but enemy and bullet patterns are adapted so this does not pose a problem. The Genesis release also has a built-in autofire feature which doesn't interfere with the fire laser, even.
Personally, I like both, though I think I've played the Genesis version more.

Other Toaplan favorites of mine are Batsugun (has a very good Saturn port), arcade Sky Shark/Flying Shark/Hishou Zame when I can actually get anywhere, and Twin Cobra/Kyukyoku Tiger when I can actually get anywhere. I also like both Truxton/Tatsujin games, but I haven't made up my mind exactly how much.

EDIT: reread the top post after posting.
The following is my opinion of best versions by game, chronologically:

Tiger Heli - arcade or PSX (Toaplan Shooting Battle 1)
Slap Fight - I don't know enough. I have a feeling the Genesis and arcade versions are close
Sky Shark/Flying Shark/Hishou Zame - arcade or possibly some Japanese home computer system
Twin Cobra/Kyukyoku Tiger - arcade, PSX (Toaplan Shooting Battle 1). Possibly PC-Engine, though I don't have much experience with it.
Truxton - all versions I have looked at were close. Genesis has built-in autofire and defaults to a lower difficulty
Hellfire - I have only played one version of this game
Twin Hawk/Daisenpu - I have not devoted much time to this game (arcade, Genesis, PC-Engine, PC-Engine CD as "Daisenpu Custom")
Zero Wing - I haven't played the PC-Engine CD incarnation
Fire Shark/Same!Same!Same! - arcade and Genesis (both are solid; my opinion)
[possible borderliner] Out Zone - arcade (exclusive?)
Vimana - arcade exclusive
Dogyuun - arcade exclusive
V-V (V-5)/GrindStormer - arcade, V-V release (since nullstar will ask it again ;) -- this is the one with the Gradius style power-up system)
Tatsujin Ou/Truxton 2 - arcade
Batsugun - Saturn

*I mention the Genesis version as that's what I'm familiar with. I'm ignorant of European Megadrive releases and any 50/60Hz issues that may arise from them.
The Japanese Megadrive version is also good.

BIG · Post by **BIG** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:48 pm

incognoscente wrote: [*]Tatsujin Ou/Truxton 2 - arcade

I believe there's a Marty port of Truxton II.

BIG-

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:54 pm

I was listing best choice(s), in my opinion.

Marty version is not easy to find, can be pricey, and is not entirely accurate besides.

I will re-edit my post to clarify this.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:11 am

What is your opinion of the NES Sky Shark? From what I tried, it's a very good port, but missing some of the bells and whistles of the arcade version like blowing up some of the places where tanks come out to reveal more tanks. From what I heard, the X68000 version is missing this little touch too.

I tried Slap Fight MD via emu and it seems to be a very good port of the original with a cool updated version. However, it also sells for quite a hefty price tag.

It's not a shmup, but there are some good ports of Snow Bros for NES, Genesis, and Game Boy, though the Genesis one is the best of the three. The 8-bit ones hold up quite well, though. I would like to see how much the Genesis one goes for. I heard that the NES one is actually quite rare.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:24 am

Just wanted to add that KyuKyouku Tiger plays and looks great on the Turbo Express/PCE GT. Highly recommended if ya wanna try some portable Toaplan action.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:08 am

Twin Hawk (Daisenpu) is much better on pc engine than MD/Arcade versions. I haven't tried it on pce CD though.

The pce version has 'toned down' explosions (a good thing in this case), the sound is better done overall and the gameplay and graphics seem to be about the same across versions, which is why I say it's the best.

One good Toaplan non-shmup that I believe is Genesis-only is Wardner...credits to Thunderforce for mentioning it in an off topic thread, I really like the game.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:43 am

wow, thanks for all the input guys, guess I´ll be spending the evening reading www.toaplan.com - and it seems I should reconsider getting a PC-Engine, too... oh, and btw. I don´t care whether it´s Genesis or Megadrive really, modded the thing already and was amazed to find out that the jp. Daisenpu cartridge contains the western version called Twin Hawk as well, depending on which region you boot it with. Gameplay-wise, it´s identical anyway, I suppose?

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:06 am

On that cartridge, Daisenpu and Twin Hawk are identical. Not so in the arcade.
Ignoring cosmetic changes (ship colors, etc.):

Tiger Heli and Flying Shark/Sky Shark/Hishou Zame have region depending on the board, but no gameplay differences that I know.

Truxton, Hellfire, Zero Wing, Out Zone, Vimana, Dogyuun, Tatsujin Ou/Truxton 2, and Batsugun have region set via Dip Switch and contain no gameplay differences between region settings to my knowledge.

Twin Cobra, Twin Hawk, and Fire Shark remove the checkpoints and single simultaneous player restrictions of Kyukyoku Tiger, Daisenpu, and Same!Same!Same!. There is, however, a version of at least Same!Same!Same! which enables the features found on the export board.

V-V and Grindstormer both contain checkpoints and lack simultaneous two player, but play differently in their power-ups. V-V (the Japanese release) contains a Gradius-style powerup bar for you to buy powerups. Grindstormer (the export release) contains a Salamander-style powerup bar for you to immediately receive powerups.

I do not have sufficient data for Alcon/Slap Fight.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:32 am

I'm not too familiar with most of the other Toaplan games, but I think I can add some input on Hellfire.

IMO, the MD version is indeed better than both the arcade original and the PCE port, and that's because the port is NOT arcade-perfect. Some changes were made and all of them changed the game to the better:

1. The Hellfire special weapon was introduced. No big deal, actually, I never seem to use it.
2. The player ship changes colour according to the currently selected shot direction. Quite helpful if you ask me.
3. The most important thing: The MD version introduces checkpoints. These are wisely chosen and help balancing the game considerably. In the original and PCE versions it was possible to get stuck in a hopeless situation (the diagonals in stage 3 come to mind) with no chance to survive.

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:37 pm

What is the difference between the arcade versions of Twin Hawk and Daisenpu?

yojo! · Post by **yojo!** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:30 pm

Regarding Slapfight, the MD port is pretty good , but much easier than the arcade port (even on hardest difficultly). The main reason for that is that the shield option does not time out in the MD like it does in the arcade. But everything else is pretty much intact (the great music, and gameplay) minus tate of course.

The MD port also feature a 2 games in one thingy, (not like V-Five/Grindstormer where only the power up scheme differs) but totally new levels bosses and musics. I like it a lot too.

Slapfight , Truxton and Flying Shark are my top shooters. I still play them quite often. (actually Flying Shark and Truxton PCBs are sitting in my vertical cab right now, with Bionic Commando and Tiger road in my Horiz cab

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:30 pm

dboeren:

Daisenpu restarts to a checkpoint upon player death, the game is one player at a time in 2P mode (it supports cocktail mode), and the ship is always green. Default extends are 70k, then every 200k.
Twin Hawk continues to scroll upon player death, the game supports two simultaneous players in 2P mode, and the ships are blue (1P) and red (2P). Default extends are 50k, then every 150k.
Title screens and attract demos are different between the two (same areas, but new plays to show simultaneous 2P in Twin Hawk).

The first ship after a continue starts at a checkpoint in both. In Twin Hawk, the second and third ships return to normal non-checkpoint behavior.

I do not know of any change to stage colorings or level designs between Twin Hawk and Daisenpu and both boards default to Medium difficulty.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:41 pm

incognoscente wrote:dboeren:

Daisenpu restarts to a checkpoint upon player death, the game is one player at a time in 2P mode (it supports cocktail mode), and the ship is always green. Default extends are 70k, then every 200k.
Twin Hawk continues to scroll upon player death, the game supports two simultaneous players in 2P mode, and the ships are blue (1P) and red (2P). Default extends are 50k, then every 150k.
Title screens and attract demos are different between the two (same areas, but new plays to show simultaneous 2P in Twin Hawk).

The first ship after a continue starts at a checkpoint in both. In Twin Hawk, the second and third ships return to normal non-checkpoint behavior.

I do not know of any change to stage colorings or level designs between Twin Hawk and Daisenpu and both boards default to Medium difficulty.

They sound very similar to the changes made to Kyokykou Tiger/Twin Cobra.

8 1/2 · Post by **8 1/2** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:50 pm

It's sort of a shame, but in the US the Genesis gets no love so almost all these games can be found for only a few dollars.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:13 pm

hmm, as much as toaplan MD ports were very good for their time, if i was you, id just get a modded xbox for toaplan games, because the arcade versions are better in general. it may be emulation and not the 2real thing2 but its closer to the 2real thing2 than the MD ports.
if you are an average person that cant afford PCBs that is.

incognoscente · Post by **incognoscente** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:24 pm

For some games, that's an okay choice. Of Toaplan shmups with Genesis/Megadrive home releases, Slapfight, Twin Cobra/Kyukyoku Tiger, Truxton, Hellfire, Twin Hawk/Daisenpu, and Zero Wing all have sound emulation in MAME, etc.
However, the sound chip/MCU has not been properly dumped for Fire Shark/Same!Same!Same!, so emulation of the arcade board will give you no sound. In this case, the Genesis version may be better to emulate.

Vimana, Dogyuun, Grindstormer/V-V, and Batsugun* have not had their sound MCUs dumped, either. FixEight (sequel to Out Zone) has tilemap graphics information on the MCU, so its emulation is very crippled.

The MCU is a sort of a self-contained CPU+ROM+RAM unit, so it can perform (to the outside) unknown operations on unknown data and then return only certain results. Most of the Toaplan MCUs on boards sent for dumping have been read-protected and there is no known communication to trick the MCU into spilling its guts. Proper emulation of the sound in these titles will take much dedication and likely even more money.
I have heard a small hint that there is someone who is putting up some extra money to move this along, but I don't know any specifics whatsoever.

*Batsugun's 6295 chip is dumped. This holds sample data like the pilot confirmations, explosions, etc. Music and certain other sound effects are in the domain of the MCU. MAME 0.88 added support for 6295 playback in Batsugun. The MCU is still not dumped and is thus unemulated.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:44 am

hmm, as much as toaplan MD ports were very good for their time, if i was you, id just get a modded xbox for toaplan games, because the arcade versions are better in general. it may be emulation and not the 2real thing2 but its closer to the 2real thing2 than the MD ports.
if you are an average person that cant afford PCBs that is.

for the price of a modded Xbox, I can buy 5 Toaplan PCBs or 20 MD games. MD Slapfight, on the other hand, costs at least twice of what the PCB amounts to (the arrange mode sounds interesting, though).

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:42 am

The vagrant wrote:hmm, as much as toaplan MD ports were very good for their time, if i was you, id just get a modded xbox for toaplan games, because the arcade versions are better in general. it may be emulation and not the 2real thing2 but its closer to the 2real thing2 than the MD ports.
if you are an average person that cant afford PCBs that is.

Actually, a good number of Toaplan MD ports are very close, as good, or better than the arcade versions. However, Slap Fight costs a pretty penny, Twin Cobra is a weak port, and Grindstormer/V5, while good for Genesis, isn't as good as the arcade version. Don't forget about that Genesis exclusive Zero Wing intro either. That is good stuff.

alpha5099 · Post by **alpha5099** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:15 pm

8 1/2 wrote:It's sort of a shame, but in the US the Genesis gets no love so almost all these games can be found for only a few dollars.

That's not a shame. That's great. It makes getting used Genesis carts on the cheap really easy. It seems like only a handful of US games fetch a price over 15 bucks.

tehkao · Post by **tehkao** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:56 am

IMHO in some cases the Genesis Toaplan ports have better music than their arcade counterparts. Zero Wing and Hellfire come to mind.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:53 pm

Though on the other hand, the PCE music is even better than the MD music (at least for Zero Wing and Hellfire).

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:39 pm

I have heard a small hint that there is someone who is putting up some extra money to move this along, but I don't know any specifics whatsoever.

If someone from MAME would tell me how much it would cost, I might be willing to finance this

although I already own Batsugun on the Saturn...