Thunder Force 6 Refuses to Die

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:15 am

Neon wrote:But then thunderforce has always sucked
Then why are you in this thread?

EDIT: I think a mod should cut the parts about G5 out and put them in a new thread.

Somehow I knew you wouldn't get it

jp · Post by jp » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:26 am

I dunno, I wasn't all that impressed with TFV personally. If they can make TFVI good, then great, I'm all for it. Otherwise, can we just let classic franchises rest in peace?

ThunderForce 222 · Post by **ThunderForce 222** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:13 am

Wow, I thought this was the TFVI thread? All in all Gradius V WAS a good game. IV was a littlle generic. At least I didn't have to start over in the middle of a level with nothing when I died (if I died).

Thunder Force VI WILL be good. If a company goes through this much trouble to bring a series back one more time, then I suspect they know what made it good in the first place. (MUSIC!!) Level design and weapon systems. TFV is great game, hell I even have the "V" logo with a lightning bolt throught it on my arm, but that doesn't mean there aren't things that couldn't have been better. I feel that the Strike on the Sword Fleet ---with the music that was given to it's stage---couldv'e been HARDER and Longer with adjustments in the more Giant ships and more background fire. I feel that this level was lacking, but that doesnn't mean it wasn't a good game. I also feel that there should have been ALOT of interaction between you're self and the rest of the squadron.As far as difficulty---try beating it with ONLY TWIN and BACK shot on MASTER (is there any OTHER difficulty to play on

) without using any CRAW energy.....and not die----GOOD LUCK...I have done it---it was not easy!!!

angrycoder · Post by **angrycoder** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:27 am

Gungriffon Geona wrote:[
Amen. V is hateable when compared to everything in the rest of the series. there's no colorful worlds to fight in, no individual enemies per each level, lots more rehashing than there should have been, boss rush ruined by cutting it in half and spreading it out for no real reason, not to mention barely any new bosses that didn't feel like they were designed by 6-year-olds. WHERE was the challenge? certainly not the asteroid boss, or the pinball machine, or even that 5 cored anomaly. (though I will admit that was the only Treasure thought-up boss that was really fun to fight.) it was brown and grey for god's sake! what exactly is that?! this isn't counter-strike people!
in comparison, Gaiden made 5 look dreadful. it put things back to their roots and yet made it feel brand new. the vibrant worlds, the detail to each and every enemy's graphic and attack style. it was oppressive as hell once you got to the final level and on to the next loops without trying to "realize" everything with brown and grey. Their was style and finesse, something V lacks adamantly. you could have had the bullet-hell symphony and grand design scheme without needing to re-use a style that fits only in Ikaruga.
Gradius exudes a style that has remained quite unique over the years. to have all that tossed aside is a slap in the face to someone who's been a fan of the series since age 8.

Rose colored glasses aside, the thing that always stood in my mind regarding gradius was 1 word, sadistic. They were basically 1 life shmups. The complete loss of powerups always meant that if you die in one of the later levels, you might as well just restart your game. Sure, this can be overcome by some shrewed playing a fair bit of luck, but the penalty always seemed far too stiff for me.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:35 am

Rob wrote:You sure complain a lot.

I have alot of pet peeves when it comes to gameplay design, but I have an extremely avid understanding of art. art is my life, so anything that ruins it gets me in a real bunch. Treasure just happened to really knock both of those buttons.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:17 am

All right, guess I'm in the minority in thinking Gradius 5 was a really nice favor to shooter fans from konami. I'm really quite surprised folks don't see it as a quality product even if it's not to there personal taste in style.

Anyways.... I should have that Broken Thunder preview disc next week hopefully. But I doubt it's nothing more than that vid and a few music tracks everyone has seen/heard all ready.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:58 am

jp wrote:I dunno, I wasn't all that impressed with TFV personally.

Thunder Force V should've been in 2D, just like the rest of the series. Then, it would've been a good end to the series. I wasn't exactly jumping for joy either when I played the game for the first time. But after playing it a few times, I was able to look past the Saturn's 3D graphics. Besides, the soundtrack was still Technosft greatness.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:55 am

Gungriffon Geona wrote:
Rob wrote:You sure complain a lot.
I have alot of pet peeves when it comes to gameplay design, but I have an extremely avid understanding of art. art is my life, so anything that ruins it gets me in a real bunch. Treasure just happened to really knock both of those buttons.

Don't mind Rob. He's far too unsophisticated to appreciate high art like old Gradius games.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:39 pm

Strider77 wrote:All right, guess I'm in the minority in thinking Gradius 5 was a really nice favor to shooter fans from konami. I'm really quite surprised folks don't see it as a quality product even if it's not to there personal taste in style.

Considering that the game is near the top of our last Top 25 list (gonna hafta wait and see how it does this year), I'd say you're pretty solidly in the majority.

I have alot of pet peeves when it comes to gameplay design, but I have an extremely avid understanding of art. art is my life, so anything that ruins it gets me in a real bunch.

I'm an "art person" myself, but I'm also of the mindset that, while art, aesthetic understanding, etc. is important (not just in games, but in life in general), it's not everything.

jp · Post by jp » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:32 pm

J-Manic wrote:
jp wrote:I dunno, I wasn't all that impressed with TFV personally.
Thunder Force V should've been in 2D, just like the rest of the series. Then, it would've been a good end to the series. I wasn't exactly jumping for joy either when I played the game for the first time. But after playing it a few times, I was able to look past the Saturn's 3D graphics. Besides, the soundtrack was still Technosft greatness.

Well, TFV just felt more like some homage to the previous games than an installment in the series. And the bullet patterns/feel of the game just didn't sit too well with me.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:38 pm

Neon wrote:
Gungriffon Geona wrote:
Rob wrote:You sure complain a lot.
I have alot of pet peeves when it comes to gameplay design, but I have an extremely avid understanding of art. art is my life, so anything that ruins it gets me in a real bunch. Treasure just happened to really knock both of those buttons.
Don't mind Rob. He's far too unsophisticated to appreciate high art like old Gradius games.

You are missing the point. it's the finesse and sense of style. that's been present throughout the entire series. then all of a sudden, poof, it died with G5.
look, I take game art and fine art seriously in 2 completely different ways. game art is just as well developed as any other form of art, it just hasn't gotten it's recognition yet.
Art takes a bit more finesse to understand it's complexities. art in and of itself is an abstract form of expression that takes an open mind. it's all a matter of what your taste is, and what is considered proper when used through a series. exactly how many game series just dramatically change their style between each game and break the mold entirely when going into a sequel? you can't exactly do that without being extremely careful about it. Treasure tried, but didn't do a good job of it. (Or they just didn't feel like learning to work with the art style that has been there since the conception of the series.)
And no, games like Counter Strike and sports games don't count, as there's no actual creative process for those. anybody can make a Colt handgun, but not everyone can change it to the point that it looks like something from a scifi movie, with just a little throwback in the style.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:50 pm

Treasure tried, but didn't do a good job of it.

Ummm you have Grev to thank for that not tresure since they did the background design....

Gradius 5 ownz.... OMG!!! pwned!!!

OMG Thunder Force 5 in 3D ownz to double pwned...!!!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:08 pm

Gungriffon, please make "Gradius V didn't have moai: the thread."

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:24 pm

I think Gradius V lacks a lot of the romanticism of the earlier games (audiovisually speaking), but even as an absolute Gradius zealot, I couldn't argue that the game lacks finesse. The artistic choices it does make never feel half-baked, and while, thematically, it's a little on the generic side, it still manages to be fairly nuanced and delicate (I'd cite the latter parts of level 6 as an example here, but I see you're not a fan of that one

).

Also, while it's much easier than the majority of its forebears, I don't think it's solely down to the lavish option/multiple controls. With a little fine-tuning they could use them in the next game in a way that feels much more 'tight', precise and conducive to challenging gameplay.

I think the real artistic problem with G5 is that it clearly thinks of itself as a nice little homage to "bygone" days, and doesn't really try to have a singular ambiance of its own.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:01 pm

well put. though I think that the bygone days approach is okay in it's own regard, it just doesn't feel right in a series where every game has recurring themes, but is largely a whole new ball game each time through.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:04 pm

Aye, that's the only thing that annoys me with a lot of modern 2D games. They tend to be a bit 'kitsch' and backward-looking instead of asserting their own moods and styles, as the classics did.

I'm not saying that looking backwards is a bad thing in itself, though. I still want the Metroid series to remember what it did in Super Metroid, for example, and build on its art direction in a meaningful way.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:35 pm

Gungriffon Geona wrote:well put. though I think that the bygone days approach is okay in it's own regard, it just doesn't feel right in a series where every game has recurring themes, but is largely a whole new ball game each time through.

As someone who has an avid understanding of art, you should know quite well that "recurring themes" can also be construed as "lack of originality" after such a long stretch of time. Stagnation in video games is just as prevalent as it is in the fine arts world. And at some point, you have to break with the apparent self-imposed conventions and branch out into something new.

"Gaiden" was a return to the older ways after IV, while G5 was a mixture of a new approach and echoes of "bygone" days. Both resulted in great games if you ask me.

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:39 pm

The Coop wrote:Both worked if you ask me.

Damn well said. It was awesome to have Treasure's take on Gradius, and it should be expected to be expression of their own style. And Gradius V was much more respectful of Gradius' myth than revolutionary. The perfect homage to a legendary series.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:59 am

The Coop wrote:As someone who has an avid understanding of art, you should know quite well that "recurring themes" can also be construed as "lack of originality" after such a long stretch of time. Stagnation in video games is just as prevalent as it is in the fine arts world. And at some point, you have to break with the apparent self-imposed conventions and branch out into something new.

"Gaiden" was a return to the older ways after IV, while G5 was a mixture of a new approach and echoes of "bygone" days. Both resulted in great games if you ask me.

It doesn't feel right though. I liked it better bright and vivid with the varied worlds. to be honest, grey motifs don't fit well in shooters. atleast not how I see it. it kind of makes things a bit harder than they need to be. it works well in ikaruga because of the sharp contrasts, but it doesn't quite work when bullets and backgrounds are in a basic color scheme that can possibly blend together. that did happen, and it's been said.
Gradius fits in the colorful worlds. I just say Treasure should've atleast tried to fit in something that felt more... vibrant. you know, gave off the feeling of a world made up of things that were a tad more lively and open, yet at the same time still make you feel like you're in a tight spot.

I guess I'm done now. I think this has gotten a little more out of hand than it should have. sorry about that. let's get back to the subject.

jp · Post by jp » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:36 am

Tacos.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:44 am

jp wrote:Tacos.

I could go for a couple of them.

Gungriffon Geona wrote:
The Coop wrote:As someone who has an avid understanding of art, you should know quite well that "recurring themes" can also be construed as "lack of originality" after such a long stretch of time. Stagnation in video games is just as prevalent as it is in the fine arts world. And at some point, you have to break with the apparent self-imposed conventions and branch out into something new.

"Gaiden" was a return to the older ways after IV, while G5 was a mixture of a new approach and echoes of "bygone" days. Both resulted in great games if you ask me.
It doesn't feel right though. I liked it better bright and vivid with the varied worlds. to be honest, grey motifs don't fit well in shooters. atleast not how I see it. it kind of makes things a bit harder than they need to be. it works well in ikaruga because of the sharp contrasts, but it doesn't quite work when bullets and backgrounds are in a basic color scheme that can possibly blend together. that did happen, and it's been said.
Gradius fits in the colorful worlds. I just say Treasure should've atleast tried to fit in something that felt more... vibrant. you know, gave off the feeling of a world made up of things that were a tad more lively and open, yet at the same time still make you feel like you're in a tight spot.

A lot of people said similar kinds of things about Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. They were so used to the linear stages, that when they were presented with a huge castle (or two) to explore, they scoffed at the idea, mocked it for being too Metroidish, and said it wasn't a real Castlevania game. I'll guarantee you that there are still people to this day who think that. But change happens, and it has to happen. The Tomb Raiders and Twisted Metals of the video game world have shown what the end result is when you get a formula, and stick to it religiously without even trying to expand things. At some point, the mold has to be broken, and new things need to be tried. R-Type did it, Thunder Force did it, Contra did it, Mario and Sonic did it, and many other franchises took the plunge too. Some met with more success than others, but at least they tried. I can understand your desire for the old style, but sometimes what's comfortable and familiar needs to be put aside for a bit, ya know?

Will Konami keep the new style, or go back to the "tried and true" stuff? Beats me. They took a chance by handing their franchise over to Treasure. I guess we'll eventually see how they feel that chance turned out. But uh... I think we know which one you'll be pulling for

ThunderForce 222 · Post by **ThunderForce 222** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:43 am

It's good for a frachise to mix it up a little but you can't make the same game over and over and over and expect it to ALWAYS be an instant classic. Although CAPCOM has somehow achieved that feat with most of there games (R.E.'s Mega Man series Fighting series) Konami made that mistake when they released the FIRST contra on PS1---then thankfully the made up for it with Shattered Soldier. But then they released Neo Contra...which I STILL haven't played to this date yet.......it doesn't have the old LOOK to it from what I've seen. Some franchises can keep the same engine and add a touch here or there a tottally revolutionize the industry---(Gulty Gear XX Slash) or add too much and hurt it's reputation (Guilty Gear Isuka). Now don't get me wrong..while I pray to the shrine of Guilty Gear..Isuka Kinda let me down even though it was still fun in the multi-player aspect. What I'm saying is while you can make a series look the same it doesn't necessarily mean it will play the same-----(MvC1 meet MvC2)...GO MAGNETO/SENTINEL/CABLE

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:40 pm

It doesn't feel right though.

to you but not to others....

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:43 am

And no, games like Counter Strike and sports games don't count, as there's no actual creative process for those

One of the stupidest things I've yet read on this board.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:28 am

Acid King wrote:
And no, games like Counter Strike and sports games don't count, as there's no actual creative process for those
One of the stupidest things I've yet read on this board.

well it's true. nowadays anything made in the sports genre is all about MONEY, as is every other WW2 game and Ghost Recon wannabe. EA practically owns the sports genre, what does that say to you about it? they hire dumb fools to make the graphics who just got through with "game design" classes that think they can make a difference, when in reality they become a lowly cog in the EA "churning crap" machine.
Where's the artistic value in that? where's the freedom of expression? creating something unique? I'll tell you what, it's not there.

now can we please drop it?

elvis · Post by **elvis** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:55 am

Counter Strike was originally made by volunteers/fans for free.

Sure, I agree everything since then has been money-grabbing tripe. But Counter Strike itself was where the more "simulation" and less "mindless arcadey run and gun" FPS kick all started, and was 100% homebrew.

Not trying to defend it, merely trying to point out that the above comment that slated it in the "thoughtless money hungry shite" box wasn't quite correct.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:02 am

I must say, Gradius V did one thing right that no other game in the series has done. The ability to recollect your options when you die. It makes a recovery almost feasible in Gradius V, and while still painfully difficult, isn't nigh impossible like it is in the other games. My biggest pet peeve with shooters is the "one life clear" syndrome, where if you die in the late game you're done for.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:50 am

Gungriffon Geona wrote:
well it's true. nowadays anything made in the sports genre is all about MONEY, as is every other WW2 game and Ghost Recon wannabe. EA practically owns the sports genre, what does that say to you about it? they hire dumb fools to make the graphics who just got through with "game design" classes that think they can make a difference, when in reality they become a lowly cog in the EA "churning crap" machine.
Where's the artistic value in that? where's the freedom of expression? creating something unique? I'll tell you what, it's not there.

now can we please drop it?

If you seriously believe there is no art or creative process in creating and producing sports games and realistic (meaning based in the real world)first person shooters, then you must believe there's no creative process in developing documentaries or doing portraits. What you said is seriously stupid. Sure, your material is ready made but that doesn't mean things like presentation, scripting, level design, pacing, developing control and movement mechanics, sound design, animation and physics are ready made as well. All those are creative processes that are just as important as what you're presenting. Who gives a shit about that nicely designed sci fi colt if firing it isn't satisfying? If the game is paced poorly? if it sounds like a snare drum? the game isn't presented properly? I guess Mapplethorpe's and Adam's photos would be just as good if someone else had taken the pictures...

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:56 pm

Gungriffon Geona wrote:
The Coop wrote:As someone who has an avid understanding of art, you should know quite well that "recurring themes" can also be construed as "lack of originality" after such a long stretch of time. Stagnation in video games is just as prevalent as it is in the fine arts world. And at some point, you have to break with the apparent self-imposed conventions and branch out into something new.

"Gaiden" was a return to the older ways after IV, while G5 was a mixture of a new approach and echoes of "bygone" days. Both resulted in great games if you ask me.
It doesn't feel right though. I liked it better bright and vivid with the varied worlds. to be honest, grey motifs don't fit well in shooters. atleast not how I see it. it kind of makes things a bit harder than they need to be. it works well in ikaruga because of the sharp contrasts, but it doesn't quite work when bullets and backgrounds are in a basic color scheme that can possibly blend together. that did happen, and it's been said.
Gradius fits in the colorful worlds. I just say Treasure should've atleast tried to fit in something that felt more... vibrant. you know, gave off the feeling of a world made up of things that were a tad more lively and open, yet at the same time still make you feel like you're in a tight spot.

I guess I'm done now. I think this has gotten a little more out of hand than it should have. sorry about that. let's get back to the subject.

Yeah, bullets and backgrounds blending together is, IMO, a major problem with V. Regarding the reference to people not liking SOTN because of the non-linear nature of the game-at least I could see what killed me in that game.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:29 pm

Acid King wrote:If you seriously believe there is no art or creative process in creating and producing sports games and realistic (meaning based in the real world)first person shooters, then you must believe there's no creative process in developing documentaries or doing portraits. What you said is seriously stupid. Sure, your material is ready made but that doesn't mean things like presentation, scripting, level design, pacing, developing control and movement mechanics, sound design, animation and physics are ready made as well. All those are creative processes that are just as important as what you're presenting. Who gives a shit about that nicely designed sci fi colt if firing it isn't satisfying? If the game is paced poorly? if it sounds like a snare drum? the game isn't presented properly? I guess Mapplethorpe's and Adam's photos would be just as good if someone else had taken the pictures...

You have missed the entire point. you can present the same game over and over again with little to no effort like that. there's no sense of satisfaction in designing something that everyone has done 50 million times over if all you change is a few minor things. maybe add a couple more nazis, script the hell out of things and make the whole point of the game moot, where your AI teammates play better than you do and allow you to sit back and watch.
the worst part is people pay out their ass for these broken and daftly built abominations of commercial gain. it's gotten to the point that FPS are starting to all look alike. grey aliens on a grey background with overdone bloom effects that make your eyes bleed. or grey nazis on a brown dirt patch surrounded by grey buildings surrounded by- you guessed it- bloom effects and ugly textures! now WHERE is the talent behind this? why, sitting behind a big desk! "Any ideas that branch out aren't allowed in this company. nooooo, we need the safe route and repackage last year's sports game with less modes and more ZOMG graphics and bloom effects! we'll let that big name guy direct anything new, because people will buy crap in a box if it's designed by him or has rappers in it."

I don't like it, and it stifles the work of people who actually WANT to make something new and creative. for those teams it's about wanting to make something that they can say they made. not specifically for money, but for the love of the creative process. if fame and fortune befalls the team for their unique design, then it's just icing on the cake.
the game industry is one of the few industries left where the little guy can do something big without having a huge load of companies trying to kill them off because they're different.
this sort of thing was proven to be true when an independent game festival caused an uproar for removing a game from the competition for it's content about the columbine shooting. it was a horrible game, granted, but it was enough to incite a massive uproar and cause teams and companies to pull their games and funding from it. not exactly the best point to start with since the game was made by a 12 year old and all, but it shows what lengths the game industry is willing to go to in order to keep the freedom of expression alive.
I don't have to explain why I'm taking such a thing so seriously. I have my reasons.

Now TF6, THIS is something where i see the composers wanting to give back to what essentially gave them their fame. a few of you see it as a money-grubbing tactic, but maybe that's not the case. it shows quite a bit of care has already been put into what's going into it from the video, an overall style that hasn't been used before in the genre, atleast not that I've seen. if they can retain that through it's entirety then I commend them for this.