Thunder Force 6 Refuses to Die

[velocity7]

Damn, this was long overdue.

[Strider77]

there is nothing about it that is Gradius other than the cores and Vic Viper. you essentially play through a generic shooter with very bland attempts at asteroids and the key bio-level of the series. there wasn't a single thing past the 3rd level that didn't cause you to say "...what the hell is this?!" Go play Gaiden and tell me you don't see what kind of a debauchery there was of the key elements of the series.

I've owned gaiden since it came out and love it but I love gradius 5 just as much if not more. It's challenging, production values and graphx are second to none/very few. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The Vic Viper is there, the same weapons and option are present. Same tunes redone. The only thing missing are the Moah heads. I don't see really how this game has nothing Gradius about it. I consider myself very lucky to have gotten a shooter with that much work put into it. Especially when these days we all starved for titles so bad we have nothing better to talk about but stuff like THE, Trizeal, Last Hope ect. Gradious 5 is something I am very grateful for....

[dai jou bu]

there is nothing about it that is Gradius other than the cores and Vic Viper. you essentially play through a generic shooter with very bland attempts at asteroids and the key bio-level of the series. there wasn't a single thing past the 3rd level that didn't cause you to say "...what the hell is this?!"

Change is good. The simple fact that Treasure made your options more versatile instead of following you around all the time was a breath of fresh air for me, which was something that should've been improved upon ever since Gradius III. Makes it feel more like R-Type since you keep getting pushing into compromising situations, which I don't mind at all.

If this didn't happen, it would've felt generic to me.

Anyway, I just hope they'll balance the weapons a little bit better from Thunderforce V, since the Free Range did ridiculous amounts of damage. More bosses attacking you from all directions is also good too.

[Necronom]

"considering the source material was butchered, I think there was plenty wrong with it."

Wow! You must be living in some parallel reality where Treasure doesn't exist and some other developer did Gradius V...
Seriously, saying that "source material was butchered" is one hell of exaggeration.

[louisg]

Wow! You must be living in some parallel reality where Treasure doesn't exist and some other developer did Gradius V...
Seriously, saying that "source material was butchered" is one hell of exaggeration.

I'm not seeing what Treasure has to do with guaranteeing that a game is good. Dunno about you guys, but I went back to Gradius 1 and Lifeforce and found them way more intense and rewarding.

[Herr Schatten]

Wow! You must be living in some parallel reality where Treasure doesn't exist and some other developer did Gradius V...

I wish I lived in some parallel reality where Treasure doesn't exist.

[nZero]

...wow, I didn't mean to start THAT discussion. The mistake I was talking about was not developing Gradius V for the arcade. After all, Gradius V is probably the closest I've ever come to tolerating the series.

[Turrican]

...wow, I didn't mean to start THAT discussion. The mistake I was talking about was not developing Gradius V for the arcade.

Yeah, it's so bad that we all can't storm over ebay to grab a $2000 pcb, and we are stuck with these pitiful console releases.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Wow! You must be living in some parallel reality where Treasure doesn't exist and some other developer did Gradius V...
Seriously, saying that "source material was butchered" is one hell of exaggeration.

I'm not seeing what Treasure has to do with guaranteeing that a game is good. Dunno about you guys, but I went back to Gradius 1 and Lifeforce and found them way more intense and rewarding.

Amen. V is hateable when compared to everything in the rest of the series. there's no colorful worlds to fight in, no individual enemies per each level, lots more rehashing than there should have been, boss rush ruined by cutting it in half and spreading it out for no real reason, not to mention barely any new bosses that didn't feel like they were designed by 6-year-olds. WHERE was the challenge? certainly not the asteroid boss, or the pinball machine, or even that 5 cored anomaly. (though I will admit that was the only Treasure thought-up boss that was really fun to fight.) it was brown and grey for god's sake! what exactly is that?! this isn't counter-strike people!
in comparison, Gaiden made 5 look dreadful. it put things back to their roots and yet made it feel brand new. the vibrant worlds, the detail to each and every enemy's graphic and attack style. it was oppressive as hell once you got to the final level and on to the next loops without trying to "realize" everything with brown and grey. Their was style and finesse, something V lacks adamantly. you could have had the bullet-hell symphony and grand design scheme without needing to re-use a style that fits only in Ikaruga.
Gradius exudes a style that has remained quite unique over the years. to have all that tossed aside is a slap in the face to someone who's been a fan of the series since age 8.

[The Coop]

Boy did this thread take a sour turn. From celebrating the possible release of a new (unofficial) Thunder Force game, to bashing everything about Gradius V.

Can you feel the joy?

[qatmix]

Dont want to keep the derailed thread, but you guys are aware that some of the Key treasure devs are the guys who wrote the original Gradius? Some of these Gradius V threads are almost comical in thier hate for the game.

Anyhows, thunderforce 6, would love it on DC as it was originally penned for release on it. However would like ot play it on anything really.

[nZero]

...wow, I didn't mean to start THAT discussion. The mistake I was talking about was not developing Gradius V for the arcade.

Yeah, it's so bad that we all can't storm over ebay to grab a $2000 pcb, and we are stuck with these pitiful console releases.

One of these times, someone's going to understand me correctly. In my humble opinion...

Gradius V should have hit the arcade on System 246 or similar, and then come home with all of the extra options or whatever to the PS2 about 9-12 months later. As in, it should have been designed for the arcade, and ported to the home console.

R-Type Final probably could have benefitted from the same treatment, but then the whole collecting 80 million ships thing wouldn't have flown.

Which, to get back to the correct topic; assuming it's actually a game and not a content creation exercise, I'm hoping that this Broken Thunder business goes to the arcade much like my favorite TF series entry (ThunderForce AC) and then gets a home port (like Thunder Spirits, except without sucking nards). It's been a while since we've seen a good hori in the wild.

[Turrican]

...wow, I didn't mean to start THAT discussion. The mistake I was talking about was not developing Gradius V for the arcade.

Yeah, it's so bad that we all can't storm over ebay to grab a $2000 pcb, and we are stuck with these pitiful console releases.

One of these times, someone's going to understand me correctly. In my humble opinion...

Gradius V should have hit the arcade on System 246 or similar, and then come home with all of the extra options or whatever to the PS2 about 9-12 months later. As in, it should have been designed for the arcade, and ported to the home console.

On the contrary, I understood perfectly, and I still don't see why.
Why it should have been designed for the arcade? What does it get if it is meant for arcades, a sort of status-symbol? Gradius Gaiden wasn't designed for the arcade either, nor R-Type Delta. Where's the problem in being an home-only release?

Oh the irony of asking for arcade releases in a Thunderforce related thread... The series that single-handledy demonstrated that home systems had nothing to envy to coin-ops...

[dai jou bu]

Okay, let's play around here for a bit. I'm amused.

V is hateable when compared to everything in the rest of the series. there's no colorful worlds to fight in, no individual enemies per each level, lots more rehashing than there should have been, boss rush ruined by cutting it in half and spreading it out for no real reason, not to mention barely any new bosses that didn't feel like they were designed by 6-year-olds. WHERE was the challenge? certainly not the asteroid boss, or the pinball machine, or even that 5 cored anomaly. (though I will admit that was the only Treasure thought-up boss that was really fun to fight.)

I don't know about you, but I died ten times more than I did in Gradius V than in Gaiden, and that was only on the first loop, not counting the high level ones.

in comparison, Gaiden made 5 look dreadful. it put things back to their roots and yet made it feel brand new.

Not really. They're both on par with each other, but I favor Gradius V more because the level and boss design was well structured around how you manipulated your options since if you don't know where to go and use your options wisely, you'll more often than not die, which is more of my style anyway. Gradius Gaiden was ridiculously easy because they didn't really add anything new to the level design, and the crystal stage was an example of wasted potential in that game.

the vibrant worlds, the detail to each and every enemy's graphic and attack style. it was oppressive as hell once you got to the final level and on to the next loops without trying to "realize" everything with brown and grey. Their was style and finesse, something V lacks adamantly. you could have had the bullet-hell symphony and grand design scheme without needing to re-use a style that fits only in Ikaruga.

Oppressive is good. It means that the Bacterian's mindgame is working on you. Also, this is probably the only legitimate complaint I can see about the game, although it's a pretty minor one.

Gradius exudes a style that has remained quite unique over the years. to have all that tossed aside is a slap in the face to someone who's been a fan of the series since age 8.

Yeah, it was a slap in the face for you to wake up and realize that there could be more done to this series, but it had to take former Konami employees to do it. You know why I don't really care much about Otomedius? It doesn't look like it's going to do anything real special like Gradius V did. Also, I've been playing Gradius ever since I was around eight years old too.

Okay, back on topic, does anyone know what they're saying in the text for the opening movie? It'd be really nice to know what's going on, and how in the world they had another RVR model released when the last RVR was supposed to have self-destructed by request of the Guardian supercomputer. =/

[Neon]

Back to Thunderforce 6, or whatever, are any of the original developers involved, or is this just douchebags using the series name to sell their game?

[JBC]

I'm fairly sure i read that alot of the original developers are involved but... i'm too lazy to go back and find out for sure. And to scared that my dreams will be crushed

My anticipation to find out where they take the story on this game almost feels like when your hanging out with a chick you really like and she likes you but no one's said anything yet and you get that funny feelin' in your tummy...

[Rob]

How much of Technosoft's staff worked from just TF3 through TF5? To start, didn't each have different music composers? What can really be left of that core team, if they were even a stable "team," 10 years later? Really, the series is deader than R-Type.

[JoshF]

Thunder Force 6 Refuses to Die

the series is deader than R-Type

[Herr Schatten]

Dont want to keep the derailed thread, but you guys are aware that some of the Key treasure devs are the guys who wrote the original Gradius?

If that's true, they've gone a long way since then and took several wrong turns.

Why it [GV] should have been designed for the arcade?

Because then the game wouldn't be 70 minutes long, have unskippable cutscenes and tedious level design that keeps repeating several passages over and over. ("Look, we had this very cool idea for a scene. Look! LOOK! Hm, maybe you missed it, I'll better repeat it. Just to make absolutely sure that you appreciate our cool idea, I'll repeat the same scene again, only slightly varied. How about that? Awesome, eh?") I'm sure, if GV had been designed as an arcade game, the gameplay and level design would be much more focussed and less gimmicky.


Sorry for keeping this thread derailed. Now, on with the Thunderforce discussion.

[Neon]

Thunder Force 6 Refuses to Die

the series is deader than R-Type

Impossible!

Fuck! This shit is going to open a vortex that will collapse the universe

I'd tend to agree though, this smells like marketing

But then thunderforce has always sucked, let's hope it's like Gradius 5

[Turrican]

Why it [GV] should have been designed for the arcade?

Because then the game wouldn't be 70 minutes long, have unskippable cutscenes and tedious level design that keeps repeating several passages over and over. ("Look, we had this very cool idea for a scene. Look! LOOK! Hm, maybe you missed it, I'll better repeat it. Just to make absolutely sure that you appreciate our cool idea, I'll repeat the same scene again, only slightly varied. How about that? Awesome, eh?") I'm sure, if GV had been designed as an arcade game, the gameplay and level design would be much more focussed and less gimmicky.


Sorry for keeping this thread derailed. Now, on with the Thunderforce discussion.

Well, there's little to talk about a game that isn't out yet. So I can reply to your GV comment without feeling too bad.

GV is already very focused and as little-gimmicky as possible, come on. Yes, there are TWO very brief in-game cutscenes... I don't see the slightest problem with it. Also, I disagree with arcade=focused while home=gimmicky. It doesn't have to be necessarily like that, Gradius III offers as much as gimmicky weaponry as Gaiden did, and yet it's an arcade game.

Anyway, since the majority of critics GV receives are due to the cold style, I'd say it should have been a little less "focused" and a little more "varied" like Gaiden was. Plant stage and all. I assume we agree to disagree.

[Strider77]

G4 was an arcade release and sucked compared to the other games, I thought 3 sucked also. God forbid they give us a 70 minute long shooter, who the hell wants more playtime in a game.

People on here hate on games that are so clearly well made games and yet praise crap like trizeal and wet there pants for Trigger Heat..... Why not hate on real crap. Every one has their favorite style of game but I don't understand why folks act like a well made game is the bane of society just because it's not for them. I mean their are shooters that I don't care to play as much as others on here but I still can see and aknowledge it's well made and not crap.

Plus i don't see why anyone who hates console shooters is even in this thread considering TF is a console series.

[louisg]

People on here hate on games that are so clearly well made games and yet praise crap like trizeal and wet there pants for Trigger Heat..... Why not hate on real crap.

There's a difference between well-made (audio/visual) and well-made (gameplay). For example, for all of Trigger Heart's utter lack of slickness of presentation, they don't expect the player to put up with a boss rush as early as st2! 'Course that bugs me in Gunstar too, but at least in that you can choose a different level. Me, I'm going back to my Lifeforce 1 =)

[dave4shmups]

How much of Technosoft's staff worked from just TF3 through TF5? To start, didn't each have different music composers? What can really be left of that core team, if they were even a stable "team," 10 years later? Really, the series is deader than R-Type.

This pretty much sums up my concerns-while I would LOVE to see a TF6, I just don't see it happening, for the above mentioned reasons.

[EXMaster]

How much of Technosoft's staff worked from just TF3 through TF5? To start, didn't each have different music composers? What can really be left of that core team, if they were even a stable "team," 10 years later? Really, the series is deader than R-Type.

This pretty much sums up my concerns-while I would LOVE to see a TF6, I just don't see it happening, for the above mentioned reasons.

At the very least, we know the composers Hyakutaro Tsukumo (from TF5) and Toshiharu Yamanishi (from TF3 and TF4) are working on this, so we got the music part of it covered.

TFVI has become the "Duke Nukem Forever" of shmups so it's easy to be skeptical about this whole event. I doubt FN & AG would go through the trouble of producing and advertising a preview disc if they didn't have anything to back it up with, and this, along with their previous music releases has indicated that there willing to keep the series alive. At least more than a Pachinko company who owns what used to be Technosoft would. I guess I have more faith in them, but ultimately I can only hope they prove you guys wrong.

[Nate]

To put a finer point on your post, EXMaster: The ThunderForce soundtracks were, in my opinion, responsible for a generous part of the allure of the series. I don't use terms like "pumped" loosely, but that's what you got when you heard their music. It really got me right there when I learned the unmistakeable style that came about with TFV's score - and then hearing Blast Wind and Hyper Duel a little later.
I don't see why this would be some kind of "concept" thing put in motion by the composers alone. And both of them? Yeah, no this has to be real. The team was tight! Hey, if The Police got back together...? C'mon. You see me working here?
Not that I'd like to see any shmup franchise fail to deliver a long-"frothed over" sequel (sorry), I'd just be severely disappointed if this thing failed to materialize. I'm a big fan of all the 'Thunders, so I'm drinking the kool-aid and changing my wallpaper and...getting ready?

[Turrican]

How much of Technosoft's staff worked from just TF3 through TF5? To start, didn't each have different music composers? What can really be left of that core team, if they were even a stable "team," 10 years later? Really, the series is deader than R-Type.

Well, I'd say people would be happy to get a new Thunderforce regardless of the staff behind it. However, I'd also assume that there must be more key elements in the staff besides the muscians - I mean, if you try to resurrect a series after nine years, even if you don't hold the name's copyright it's safe to say that you care and love TF. That's why I'd say - let's be optimistic for once.

[Strider77]

they don't expect the player to put up with a boss rush as early as st2!

LOL....

[Gungriffon Geona]

they don't expect the player to put up with a boss rush as early as st2!

I think it's more the fact it's too early and too easy.
the levels WERE really grating and easy as all hell. as were the bosses too. I already know why too. the option formation system. it made the game pathetically easy to have that much control over them considering they are invincible versions of your ship, and honestly very powerful without the control abilities.
as for levels:
oh hell, this bio level doesn't look so hot, and these asteroids aren't that great. hmm... I know! let's leave it in and make sure everything moves, that way no one will notice we took five minutes to make the level! we are so clever! and let's make them fight the boss backwards too."
a little later...
ooooh let's throw green goo at you and shake the playfield a little! wait wait, let's make you go up and down! now do it backwards! And now for the big blue ball!
It was never fun. if anything it was tedious and easy to jump through these hoops of theirs just to make it feel "unique". If that had never been added and they didn't try to turn the game topsy-turvy with the tedious level design and badly developed Ikadius bosses, I think I'd have a bit more respect for G5.
I'm with the other guy, the members who worked on the original gradius team took some wrong turns being away from the series obviously.

But then thunderforce has always sucked

Then why are you in this thread?

EDIT: I think a mod should cut the parts about G5 out and put them in a new thread.

[Rob]

You sure complain a lot.