XRGB-3

[fubarduck]

Here is a short list of bugs so far using the newest firmware updates:

- approximately 100ms lag when scaling 480i material to any default resolution (1024x768, 1280x1024, and 1600x1200).

- approximately 20ms lag when scaling 480p material to any default resolution (1024x768, 1280x1024, and 1600x1200)

- In Line Doubler and Transcoder mode, DVI output is non-functional, only VGA out is supported currently.

- Line Doubler and Transcoder mode (which outputs 480p) can display both 480i and 480p with no lag. However, in this mode, the GAME IN port (21 pin RGB) cannot completely sync properly. Most of the screen is OK, but the top 10% or so is out of sync (very distorted). Adjusting the AFC level in normal operation mode from "2" to "5" fixes this, but in Line Doubler/Transcoder mode, the screen just goes haywire when the AFC level is changed from the default position. So, right now with the RGB port, you're either forced to play with 100ms lag or play with the top 10% of the screen extremely distorted.

- Analog sound that goes through the GAME IN port (21 pin RGB) is scratchy and distorted both in regular operation mode and in Line Doubler/Transcoder mode. Analog sound through all other input ports functions perfectly.


Right now, I can only recommend the XRGB-3 to people who want a slightly upgraded XRGB-2+. If you plan on using the 21 Pin RGB port, you should not get one. If you wanted it for the DVI output, you should not get one, since you can't actually use it. If you wanted one for the higher output resolutions, you should not get one because they lag very badly (probably even worse than your TV does while directly connected to your game console!).

If you want 480p support on your inputs, and 640x480 (480p) with VGA output is enough, and you won't ever use the 21 Pin RGB port I could recommend this unit. However, there are very few people that are going to fall in this category!


I did submit an error report to Micomsoft in Japanese, so hopefully I can get a reply and shed some light on what they plan to do about the bugs in the current firmware version.

[fubarduck]

Today, I received an E-Mail reply from Micomsoft. Here's the skinny:

- The XRGB-3 uses a frame buffer system which is unavoidable with the hardware it uses. They decided to go with the frame buffer system to keep a low price-point, as better hardware to do it without the frame buffer system would have been too expensive. So, there will always be video game lag when using its normal function mode.

- For this reason, they added the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode which functions similar to the XRGB-2+ and has no delay. However, it's impossible to use DVI in this mode because the frequency in this mode cannot be outputted via DVI. It also doesn't sync as well with LCD Monitors and with arcade boards (which explains why my Supergun is unrepairably distorted in this mode)

- They're aware of all the problems but pointed out that it will take time to write and verify the firmware updates, and most of these problems are unfixable.


So, I hope that clears it up for everyone. The XRGB-3 was created and targeted for the audience that doesn't mind gaming lag and just wants to play games in a high resolution on their monitor in DVI.

The best option right now for those who want to use arcade boards is the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+. The XRGB-3 would be acceptable if you want to play console games lag-free in 640x480 / 480p, but it is not compatible with arcade boards like the XRGB-2/XRGB-2+ and will not use DVI or high definition.

[Inkvisitor]

I guess this means the DVI is overall kind of flawed. More flaws:

* Picture in some games is pixelated/blocky.
* On some LCDs the picture can not be stretched horizontally to fit the entire picture (confirmed by Micomsoft).
* The glitches with DVI passthrough are not entirely gone (unit has to be restarted on DPMS standby).

It's not all bad though, Ikaruga looks good on a tate CRT using progressive scan, component cables and VGA output. Somehow Ikaruga has none of the pixelation/block effects I can see in other games.

How is the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode activated ?

Will Micomsoft try to fix the sync issue on the GAME IN port ?

[fubarduck]

I guess this means the DVI is overall kind of flawed. More flaws:

* Picture in some games is pixelated/blocky.
* On some LCDs the picture can not be stretched horizontally to fit the entire picture (confirmed by Micomsoft).
* The glitches with DVI passthrough are not entirely gone (unit has to be restarted on DPMS standby).

It's not all bad though, Ikaruga looks good on a tate CRT using progressive scan, component cables and VGA output. Somehow Ikaruga has none of the pixelation/block effects I can see in other games.

How is the Line Doubler/Transcoder mode activated ?

Will Micomsoft try to fix the sync issue on the GAME IN port ?

Turns out it's not an issue with the GAME IN port, but actually an issue with the sync for arcade boards (mine is a CPS3 using a Sigma Supergun's RGB out). Micomsoft told me the possibilities of arcade board frequencies are infinite and that they have no plans to add support for individual arcade boards due to time constraints.

I know it isn't an issue with the GAME IN port specifically because when I use the plain-old S-Video output on my Supergun, it does the exact same thing.

Mind you, both my XRGB-2 and my XRGB-2+ could sync the image just fine--both with RGB *and* with S-Video. Anyway, what Micomsoft told me basically is that they ditched arcade board support completely in favor of a higher level of game console compatibility. Apparently the XRGB-3 adds compatibility for some rare Japanese SNES consoles. They also wanted hardware that could seamlessly support the game console switching randomly between 480i and 480p output (which happens on Xbox 1 before the dashboard update, and on certain Gamecube games which force you to watch cutscenes in 480i even when the game is set to output 480p).

Anyway, the arcade board CAN sync with my XRGB-3 by raising the AFC Level--but only in normal-function mode, and since it lags so badly it's a moot point (the game is Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike)!


Line Doubler and Transcoder Mode, once flashed, is accessed from "FPGA Select" under "Special" (the bottom option of the main menu). You have to change the FPGA from "B0" (default functionality) to "B1" (Line Doubler and Transcoder Mode).

In this mode, the Frame Buffer system is ditched in favor of a functionality similar to the XRGB-2+.

480i is line doubled and displayed as 480p
480p, 720p, and 1080i are transcoded and are simply passed through (but with your Gamma/Brightness settings, etc).

And, most importantly, there is no lag in this mode. However, you lose pretty much all of the XRGB-3's unique features in this mode; screen capture, PIP, DVI Output etc. are all unusable. Basically, the unit turns into an XRGB-2+ but with 480p/720p/1080i passthrough. Which is ok--but not enough to really even merit an upgrade IMO. More like an XRGB-2++.

[undamned]

Thanks fubarduck and others!
-ud

[Wanderer]

So, I hope that clears it up for everyone. The XRGB-3 was created and targeted for the audience that doesn't mind gaming lag and just wants to play games in a high resolution on their monitor in DVI.

They (Micomsoft) should have stuck with their core audience, many who bought the xrgb-2+ to bypass the monitor/HDTV video processing and AVOID lag. I suspect most xrgb2/+ owners that buy the xrgb-3 will be blindsided that the new version of the xrgb actually CREATES lag!

[fubarduck]

They (Micomsoft) should have stuck with their core audience, many who bought the xrgb-2+ to bypass the monitor/HDTV video processing and AVOID lag. I suspect most xrgb2/+ owners that buy the xrgb-3 will be blindsided that the new version of the xrgb actually CREATES lag!

Well, actually, their core audience are Japanese people who bought it to play on their computer monitors.

I'm not sure if Micomsoft was even aware that many foreigners bought the XRGB-2+ as a way to prevent lag. They weren't trying to hide anything with the XRGB-3 either; it's written very clearly in the instruction booklet that there's a 2-frame lag (in the regular B0 operating mode).

Despite the issues with it, I plan on using my XRGB-3 at least for a while until a better solution pops up. I need it for my 480i/480p sources at the very least; my TV overscans/stretches those sources very badly through the Component inputs. It does produce a great high-quality image for 480p and up sources (I use Line Doubler mode for 480i) and a 2-frame lag is pretty hard for me to feel although not optimal. I don't think it's worth $300, but it's about worth the ~$220 I got it for on eBay.

My dream is still for something like this to become cheaper: http://gear.ign.com/articles/718/718587p1.html

[Fudoh]

I've had the VP30 (along with some other videoprocessors) and while it's a nice unit, it will never be able to do the kind of "hard scaling" the XRGB3 does.

The XRGB3 is the only machine I know which is able to produce a hard-scaled picture similar to MAME's "RGB sharp" filter. Running a videogame system with a VP20/30 or most other videoprocessors make the picture look like MAME in standard scaling mode, in other words a bit softer than what the XRGB3 can do.

On the other hand, the VP30 does perfect deinterlacing you wouldn't have to deal with feathering (combing) effects on 480i inputs.

Fudoh

[Fudoh]

Hi fellows,

we're currently trying to get a XRGB3 running on friend's setup (WXGA Samsung LCD TV), but we get distorted colors in RGB mode.

E.g. like this:





We're using the very same EU-JP Scart adapter which worked flawless on my setup.

Any ideas what might cause this color distortion ?

Fudoh

[fubarduck]

You could try changing the RGB input setting from 75 ohms to 220 ohms. Seems like it's an overly bright RGB signal. I'm not very knowledgeable about RGB stuff so it's just a suggestion!

[Strider77]

For Strider77,

Yes, the XRGB-2 has the "V-Line" option to add fake scan-lines to an analog based CRT PC monitor.

My fallow up question is does the XRGB3 have this feature also? I want to get those scan lines back on a HDTV is what I'm getting at.

I could hook this up via DVI>HDMI or hook it into my transcoder that I use to get VGA out of my dreamcast to my HDTV.

Could I get scanlines back onto my HDTV doing either of these on my HDTV? Would I need a XRGB2 instead? Is what I'm trying for even possible?

[fubarduck]

My fallow up question is does the XRGB3 have this feature also? I want to get those scan lines back on a HDTV is what I'm getting at.

Yes, the XRGB-3 still has the option for fake scanlines so you could get them back on your HDTV.

[Strider77]

great, thanks for the info. Now I just need to break down and buy one.... NCSX is sold out, any ideas on where to find them? Are they out of print all ready?

[Craiji]

I sent an email to Micomsoft, but I wanted to know if anyone else has a color problem in D4 mode with the xrgb-3, I tested my monitor with an XSELECT-D4 also and the colors are perfect.

I hope it is also possible to do line doubling with D3 mode, out of scan range for my monitor

[fubarduck]

great, thanks for the info. Now I just need to break down and buy one.... NCSX is sold out, any ideas on where to find them? Are they out of print all ready?

They are not out of print. There isn't even a shortage; pretty much every retail store in Japan has them in stock right now. Unfortuantely, both NCSX and Play-Asia have been out of stock for 2+ months and have failed to restock, so right now your only choice is eBay (or a friend in Japan).

[Strider77]

the last one on ebay went for 350.00. ebay is always overpriced

[Craiji]

New firmware update today, seems to have a fix for my biggest issue, just have to get out of work to see what else the update has

[jdmishima]

Who wants to translate for us just what this new update doest for us?

Thanks in advance

[Craiji]

The firmware update for normal operation
* XRGB-3 CPU Version1.07
Line doubler and digital transcoder mode modifications which accompany the update
PC stabilization at time of resolution change

* XRGB-3 CMD Version1.07
Line doubler and digital transcoder mode modifications which accompany the update
D4 brightness adjusted - Fixed my problem
PC stabilization at time of resolution change

* XRGB-3 FPGA Version1.02 (for BANK0: 06_09_01)
Improvements to stability

Line doubler & digital transcoder mode update
* XRGB-3 FPGA Version1.00 (for BANK1: 06_10_19)
Official release - If the could only line double D3 (1080i) My WUXGA monitor would work and would also be able to use DVI again theoretically
Does not show blue, no input, screen? (I think)

[Inkvisitor]

I just flashed my XRGB with that latest firmware (1.07). Please if you find things that have been improved tell us what they are.

[BigAL]

Well, it looks like Micomsoft has already pulled the plug on the XRGB-3. I just got this e-mail from NCSX when I asked when they would be back in stock.


"Hello, according to our vendors in Japan, Micomsoft has already discontinued the XRGB-3. We are not sure why they decided to stop production but we will update our customers if a new upscan converter is announced. Thanks.

Regards,
NCS, Inc"

[Craiji]

According to micomsoft's online store another shipment is expected on Oct 25th after a "long wait" they say - Also according to thier periodic updates and insights the shipments go faster than expected

[Inkvisitor]

I found a way to make the picture much less pixelated.

Yesterday when I browsed the Micomsoft site I found something called WINinPViewer.jar. Apparently it's some kind of application that tells the XRGB-3 to output the picture within a window that can reside on your desktop. So I tweaked the settings and found that games look absolutely best when viewed in a 640x480 window, no surprise there as that is usually the native resolution. Now if you set your system resolution to 640x480 you can make that window full screen. In a sense you're not using the unit as an upscaler just a linedoubler. And the picture is much smoother.

It might not be practical to switch system resolution every time but those tasks can easily be automated. Atleast they can if you run debian, so here is a small script I wrote:

xrandr -s 2
cd /hdg1/program/WINinPViewer/
xset -dpms
xset s off
unclutter -root -idle 1 &
/hdg1/program/jre1.5.0_06/bin/java -jar /hdg1/program/WINinPViewer/WINinPViewer.jar
killall -9 unclutter
xset s on
xset +dpms
xrandr -s 0

[Strider77]

I found an XRGB3 for a decent price. Before I buy it I want to ask what most on here think about the XRGB2 vs 3. Witch one is the better of the 2? In this thread some complained about the lag of the 3 vs 2.

Line Doubler and Transcoder Mode, once flashed, is accessed from "FPGA Select" under "Special" (the bottom option of the main menu). You have to change the FPGA from "B0" (default functionality) to "B1" (Line Doubler and Transcoder Mode).

In this mode, the Frame Buffer system is ditched in favor of a functionality similar to the XRGB-2+.

480i is line doubled and displayed as 480p
480p, 720p, and 1080i are transcoded and are simply passed through (but with your Gamma/Brightness settings, etc).

And, most importantly, there is no lag in this mode. However, you lose pretty much all of the XRGB-3's unique features in this mode; screen capture, PIP, DVI Output etc. are all unusable. Basically, the unit turns into an XRGB-2+ but with 480p/720p/1080i passthrough. Which is ok--but not enough to really even merit an upgrade IMO. More like an XRGB-2++.

I also want to know if the fake scanline option can be used in the mode talked about above. Also if I understand this right.... if I hook up the XRGB3 to a HDTV I would have to use VGA threw a transcoder to get a picture on my HDTV when using this mode only or all the time regardless of the mode?

[Craiji]

I always use the unit in B1 mode, no lag and I get full widescreen resolution on D4 (720p) but honestly in this mode, at this point, it acts very much like a XRGB-2+ combined with an XSELECT-D4. My main point with the unit is for use with my classic systems as well as gearing up for the PS3

What is the defualt resolution of your TV?

Also looks to be a mini update to FPGA B0 on micomsoft's site

[Strider77]

I'll have to see what the default resolution is, I believe it's 720p

My main point with the unit is for use with my classic systems

this is the only reason I want it. I won't be hooking up anything that is dreamcast and up to it.

I always use the unit in B1 mode, no lag and I get full widescreen resolution on D4 (720p)

and you can use the fake scanline feature in this mode?

[Strider77]

I just did some research about the native resolution

the display it's 1080i native but can also show true 480p.
720p gets upconverted to 1080i.
SD stuff either shows at 480p or 960i depending on what DRC mode you've got selected.

The Super Fine Pitch tube shows about 1400 lines, which is a LOT more than any other consumer tube out there

thats what I found but can't verify it yet, but I'll assume it's true

[fubarduck]

I just did some research about the native resolution

the display it's 1080i native but can also show true 480p.
720p gets upconverted to 1080i.
SD stuff either shows at 480p or 960i depending on what DRC mode you've got selected.

The Super Fine Pitch tube shows about 1400 lines, which is a LOT more than any other consumer tube out there

thats what I found but can't verify it yet, but I'll assume it's true

This is correct, the Sony XBR910 and XBR960 models are some of the rare CRT HDTV models that actually have two native resolutions, 480p and 1080i.

As for the fake scanlines, it looks like I may have been incorrect. I double-checked all the options and for some reason I can't find anything, although I swore I had seen something before.

The feature I translated as "Interlaced" or "Non-Interlaced" actually isn't fake scanlines as it turned out; it simply controls the way the XRGB-3 draws the image if I'm not mistaken.

As for the two modes, it's pretty simple:

B0 Mode: All resolutions, VGA/DVI, 2 frames of lag minimum
B1 Mode: 640x480, VGA only, no lag, all input resolutions still supported


Someone else post if I'm just not seeing the fake scanlines option, it's driving me nuts.

[Strider77]

That sux about the scanline option. I don't know if i'd use it all the time but i was looking forward to seeing it.

Could i email the makers and ask? Would they respond to an email in english.

[Craiji]

They will not respond in English I have tried had to resend all emails in Japanese, I swear scan lines were in the options menu also I will look again when I get home

More like B1 mode: 1024~768/1280~1024/1600~1200 output resolutions, VGA or DVI, and lag

B0: D1- 640~480 at 60 Hz (so lines doubled) D2- 640~480 at 60 Hz D3- 1920~1080 at 30 Hz (DAMN!) and D4- 1280~720 at 60 Hz for resolutions, VGA only, and no lag