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Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:14 am

Given the fact that Taito has incorporated a TATE option in all of their vertical shooter ports since the 32-bit era, I'd say there's probably a reason that it was excluded from GWG. So I don't think Taito was just being ignorant and it's not the end of the world, the game still has TATE, it just has borders now.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:20 am

I would like to know the reasoning for not including tate. It's troubling that the most visible and productive shooter developer/publisher, Taito, would allow this to happen. I mean, nowadays it's just expected that tate is included in a port. It's part of the reason shooter fans buy these arcade ports, to bring the arcade experience home. Why displease the consumer, when your target audience is an extremely niche market? And I don’t buy the argument that the average gamer does not care about tate, because the average gamer doesn’t buy Giga Wing Generation, only die-hard shooter fans do! I hope this is not a change in policy for Taito, as this would not bold well for future releases. Did an increase in Japanese gamers get injured by rotating their TV recently?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:34 am

Nemo wrote:Given the fact that Taito has incorporated a TATE option in all of their vertical shooter ports since the 32-bit era, I'd say there's probably a reason that it was excluded from GWG.

I bet Takumi called them up and told them to fix their initial error of making the game tate (fan betrayal).

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:39 am

So what exactly are the bonuses, if any, that this game offers (to help offset the loss of tate)?

And why the hell would anyone play on arcade mode when it's just original mode with the sides cropped? For true arcade faithfulness? I mean, full side visibility without scrolling is sort of a home-exclusive feature that people should really take advantage of considering they won't have tate.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:54 am

OmegaFlareX wrote:That's a shame about GWG. It doesn't really matter to me anyway since my PS2 isn't modded and I don't have a boot disc or anything (I'd go for the Swap Magic if ESPGaluda is confirmed to work with it).

Get the swap mod, it works fine with Espgaluda and DDPDOJ (although on DDP you'll be missing out on the Boss Rush mode).

As for the TATE issue, a windowed mode, even if it keeps the same aspect ration, just isn't the same as full TATE for me. I play all my verts on a flipped LCD now, and it just doesn't compare to a windowed mode, even on a bigger television. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Try it yourself.

Shame about this game though. I defintiely won't be picking it up in the state it's in. Here's to hoping they'll be another release with the TATE and framerate issues addressed... doubtful, but one can hope.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:58 am

subcons wrote:Get the swap mod, it works fine with Espgaluda and DDPDOJ (although on DDP you'll be missing out on the Boss Rush mode)..

My fliptop with Swap Magic works with Espgaluda and Daioujou Death Label no problems. No reason to miss out on imports when you're able to at the low price of a regular, domestic game.

Post by **system11** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:00 am

The vagrant wrote:seems that a lot of your posts consist of bashing tate for some reason, dunno why, bad past experience?

Sick and tired of hearing people talk about it like it's the only thing in the world (and perfectly safe). I would add this is /not/ everyone.

The vagrant wrote:all this would be nothing, but...30FPS? um, no thanks, i still havent bought mars matrix, which i know by playing it on mame that its one of the greatest shmups ever, for me at least.

That's where I get nervous about the purchase. 30fps isn't good enough. Some people have said it's slow, some that it's smooth - who can tell?

It'd be great if someone who does have it could manage a 60fps capture.

Post by **system11** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:07 am

OmegaFlareX wrote:That's a shame about GWG. It doesn't really matter to me anyway since my PS2 isn't modded and I don't have a boot disc or anything (I'd go for the Swap Magic if ESPGaluda is confirmed to work with it).

JP PS2s second hand aren't very expensive now - easier than a modchip or an eject/swap hack. Espgaluda on PS2 is absolutely brilliant.

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:44 am

Ganelon wrote:So what exactly are the bonuses, if any, that this game offers (to help offset the loss of tate)?

That it's on PS2 so you don't have to buy the PCB for 10x the price.

Ganelon wrote:And why the hell would anyone play on arcade mode when it's just original mode with the sides cropped? For true arcade faithfulness? I mean, full side visibility without scrolling is sort of a home-exclusive feature that people should really take advantage of considering they won't have tate.

Because that's not what "arcade mode" is. Too many people are confusing arcade as being original with bigger borders and that isn't the case. Original is similar to the display found in previous GW games whereas arcade is faithful to the original arcade disposition but it's scaled down so you don't have to flip your TV. If you play it on a larger TV you can offset some of the difference.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:03 am

I can't imagine why a "huge Giga Wing fan" would be so put off by this.

by being a huge Giga Wing fan and a huge tate fan at the same time? You know, some time ago I had a plan to actually rip the Giga Wing romset for all the graphic sets and then go and re-program the thing for tate, to make a new game with exactly the same graphics, level design and music, only in tate. Can you imagine what it felt like reading Giga Wing Generations WILL be tate? Like heaven or something. Then reports of Type X hardware sucking came up, and the PS2 port was my focus of hope, and now they fucked that up, too. Probably, it wasn´t even intentional, but the PS2 just can´t handle the game (why else 30fps?), and it would run even worse in tate. However, since Type X also sucks (besides being terribly expensive), I think I´ll go back to my original plan.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:33 am

raiden wrote: by being a huge Giga Wing fan and a huge tate fan at the same time?

I don't know, I just think the GW fan part would take precedence, at least enough to buy it and try it out. I do play games with tate option in tate about 75-80% of the time, but it seems more like a necessary evil in most cases.

Darkcomet72 · Post by **Darkcomet72** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:35 am

Nemo wrote: Because that's not what "arcade mode" is. Too many people are confusing arcade as being original with bigger borders and that isn't the case. Original is similar to the display found in previous GW games whereas arcade is faithful to the original arcade disposition but it's scaled down so you don't have to flip your TV. If you play it on a larger TV you can offset some of the difference.

Absolutely correct. Remember, that this game(and most Vertical Tate games) have wobbling: that is, the slight shifting of the screen left and right. Nothing is stretched. It's obvious that the arcade mode has to be the actual arcade mode ported, and just with letterboxing, because Arcade mode is.... Arcade mode! How can Arcade mode be a branch off of Original mode? Hmmm... This would've been much easier if they called original mode "Arrange mode".

bloodflowers wrote:Kind of sad really. I really would like a shmups t-shirt of some kind, Click is making one, but it's a TV on its side, which kind of writes it off as a bit too eliteist/geeky for me. A DDPDOJ shirt? I'd have that in a microsecond.

It's not really geeky(to me, nothing is geeky). Now, for PCB collectors, It's nessecary.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:05 am

Ganelon wrote:My fliptop with Swap Magic works with Espgaluda and Daioujou Death Label no problems. No reason to miss out on imports when you're able to at the low price of a regular, domestic game.

I used to have a fliptop (I've got an import system incoming to replace that one now) and Death Label simply wouldn't work with the Swap Magic discs. I can't recall what version they were--2.0 maybe? But I know Death Label didn't work.

The rest of Daioujou worked fine, as did Espgaluda.

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:08 am

No Tate, final answer. Drat. I wish I knew what the reason for that was.

Could it be that the PS2 had trouble handling GWG at full 640x480 given the power of Type-X?

I still am eager for this one to arrive tomorrow though. Tychom's word about it being smoother than the arcade is a tad inspiring- it's a lot better to have slowdown instead of an Attack of the Jerks (OTOH if Type-X is indeed upgradable, then maybe upgrading components in the board could help that). Low frame rates can be hell.

If a PC version of GWG ever materializes down the road as it did for both SNS titles, I'm going to think strongly of grabbing that also. I think a 3.2GHz P4 and a decent graphic card with 256MB VRAM can handle it better than Type-X.

Until I get my copy, the jury will remain out.

DEL, is the arcade version at 30FPS? Just wondering, thanks.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:24 am

GWG first impressions:

I just finished playing two rounds of the game in the Original Screen format (one in Arcade mode and I played a stage in Score Attack mode)...
and all I can say is...

Giga Wing Generations = Giga Wing Lite

Really. This game is nowhere near as difficult as it's predecesors. The bullet patterns have huge gaping holes in them and your hitbox is piddling.

My first credit saw me up to the boss of stage 4 (out of 6), and I was doing my best to avoid bombing (yes, I was resorting to them on occasion). Granted, I wasn't really playing for score.

Pros:
The control is fairly responsive.
The Reflect Force recharge time is roughly equal to that of Giga Wing 2's, making it easy to get into the reflect-dodge-reflect rhythm.
The stage design is heavily influenced by the first Giga Wing (even the giant golden coin makes its return at the later bosses).

Cons:
The game really does suffer from a lack of Tate due to the fact that using the MAME-esque slim-screen (to preserve the true aspect ratio) makes everything really small. For those who have played DDP on the PSX in Yoko, that's what this feels like (Original just widens the viewable area, but doesn't scale the image in or out).
Frame rate issues (although, the game suffers less in Arcade screen format than in Original).
The soundtrack is rather bland.
The intro is rather bland as well (the models are very basic, and some of the in-game graphics look better).
Rather nasty looking explosions (I really don't know what's going on here... but they look like something out of an N64 game... very blurry and poorly superimposed).

I'll post again after this weekend, as I do want to delve further into this game.

Tychom · Post by **Tychom** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:01 am

Basically I'd echo what Kiken said above, particularly regarding some of the graphics.

I think the lack of tate really does hurt the game as everything is just incredibly small. It's a horror to play through composite (I sure can't wait to get home and try it in RGB) as you can't clearly pick anything out. Coming directly from the arcade and playing it on a large rotated screen to this lower resolution version is very dissapointing.

Rob, you asked about the loading times. On this, a brand new PS2 (slimline) your're looking at 30 seconds to get into the title screen from startup, 2-3 seconds from title to main menu, 4-5 seconds to get to ship select, anywhere between 13-19 seconds to load in a level, again very dissapointing. I'd definately like to know if it's just this PS2 though.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:10 am

Kiken wrote:(Original just widens the viewable area, but doesn't scale the image in or out).

That's what I wanted to see. Thanks for clearing that up.

your're looking at 30 seconds to get into the title screen from startup, 2-3 seconds from title to main menu, 4-5 seconds to get to ship select, anywhere between 13-19 seconds to load in a level, again very dissapointing.

Agh!

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:00 am

The vagrant wrote:
Dylan1CC wrote:
The vagrant wrote:hilarious how biased the shmups community is.
Come on now. We're just not getting full-featured value out of the product that we should be, pure and simple. I don't bear any grudge against anyone who buys the game and who doesn't TATE their screen ya know? Just disappointing personally as both a TATE'er and importer.
im not talking about tate or no tate, but there just seems to be some sort of vehemency wether someone brings on a negative aspect of a game, kinda annoying, but i guess i should just speak my mind and not worry about it too much/not enter useless debates.
there's some things i dont like on this forum, but im not going to change it by myself, i should learn to deal with it/ignore it, leaving is not an option :p

I know what you mean. I have been known to be vehement and a little over-passionate at times, believe me, something I am working on. In any case never be afraid to speak your mind here.

Dylan1CC · Post by **Dylan1CC** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:12 am

"Ouch" to Kiken's GWG PS2 impressions.

neoalphazero · Post by **neoalphazero** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:16 am

This doesn't make sense, you'd think tate mode would be the easiest mode to program in, and is it confirmed that the game runs at 30 FPS?

I'm still picking it up but I really hope this doesn't say much about the state of Takumi. Night Raid wasn't that great and GWG sounds like it was thrown into production without a final layer of polish. If a Mars Matrix 2 ever materializes it better be superb or the heavens are gonna bleed.

...Ok that came off a little darker than I intended

. *-neo

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:55 am

I don't know, I just think the GW fan part would take precedence, at least enough to buy it and try it out.

well, I would if I had a PS2, but I don´t and was considering to get one again for this game, Galuda and RaidenDX. But not under these circumstances. You know I didn´t like Gigawing 2 already for the reason of it being Gigawing 1 "lite", as Kiken put it. I had decided not to bother myself with loading times again, yet given the price-related unaccessibility of Type X, I was about to make a compromise. Now I´m glad I didn´t do it.

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:17 pm

It's pretty sweet not being a Gigawing fan right about now.

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:51 pm

That really, really sucks for me!!!

Why Takumi, why you mess up the new Giga Wing?

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:30 pm

Gah! That just sealed GWG's fate for me...

jiji · Post by **jiji** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:32 pm

cigsthecat wrote:It's pretty sweet not being a Gigawing fan right about now.

Indeed. Framerate problems and 30fps are far more of a dealbreaker than lack of tate, and it sounds like this one is a gigantic mess all around. Definitely avoiding.

More info on the 30fps and framedropping: http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bb ... 0648.shtml

Stormowl · Post by **Stormowl** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:50 pm

this is all heartbreaking to hear. i was really looking forward to the return of Takumi...

i'd like to see some footage of the game in action to get a feel for the 30 fps issue.

Mars Matrix 2...

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:07 pm

Out of curiosity, what kind of media does TypeX use?

icepick · Post by **icepick** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:53 pm

Frogacuda wrote:Out of curiosity, what kind of media does TypeX use?

A hard disk drive, right? At least, that's what I thought...

http://www.system16.com/taito/hrdw_typex.html

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:53 pm

Why is my last post missing? Odd...

druuna · Post by **druuna** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:23 pm

shit....now we're able understand why they didn't put any video or large screenshots of this game online