Shooting Game Tournament 2006

[The Coop]

Old ports don't count since the scoring systems/stages are usually altered.

I think the boss milking is fine. I could survive for maybe 2 minutes (then dying, which is not exactly good for score) and get 15,000 pts. It's challenging and would be a fair bonus for good players.

But then it just becomes yet another milk-fest. I don't mean to sound pissy, but we've already had two games that use that tactic for scoring (especially BS), and I'm sure there'll be more to come in future weeks. Can't we find a retro game that doesn't rely on this? I thought the point of retro week was going to be having to rely on the more "old fashioned skills", not just be an older version of what we've already done twice now.

[BrianC]

I like the NES version of Gunsmoke. I like how items and weapons can be bought from shops. The wanted poster thing is unnecessary, though. I do feel that the NES and arcade versions should be treated as seperate since they are different games. I'm not sure which I like better, but probably the arcade since it lacks the wanted poster thing and is much more challenging.

Sometimes, I feel differences between arcade are actually a plus for some conversions. It's often annoying when a game tries too hard to be just like the arcade and doesn't add up.

[Rob]

Can't we find a retro game that doesn't rely on this? I thought the point of retro week was going to be having to rely on the more "old fashioned skills", not just be an older version of what we've already done twice now.

I feel like you didn't read my post. How would a 10 or 20,000 point bonus be relying on boss milking. And how is this not about "old-fashioned skills." You have to survive 5+ enemies and the boss shooting directly at you. This will become very hard quickly.

[The Coop]

Oh, another game popped into my head earlier... Gaplus. That game get's pretty nuts as the parsecs roll on. Another one might be 1942 or 1943.

[Super Laydock]

Can't we find a retro game that doesn't rely on this? I thought the point of retro week was going to be having to rely on the more "old fashioned skills", not just be an older version of what we've already done twice now.

You took the word right out of my mouth!

I hope this is Edge sees in a retro week as well!

[Icarus]

I just gave Xevious another go.



I stand by my statement.

[Rob]

This isn't anything like Blazing Star. At all.

[BrianC]

Oh, another game popped into my head earlier... Gaplus. That game get's pretty nuts as the parsecs roll on. Another one might be 1942 or 1943.

1943, another game that is very different on NES than arcade. The NES one actually has stats that level up. There are also two different arcade 1943s. 1943 Kai is really neat. I like the biplane in that version.

I just gave Xevious another go.



I stand by my statement.

Yes, I get the idea. The point is getting hammered into the ground. Xevious does not appeal to everyone, especially since it's more limited in comparison to newer games.

[Super Laydock]

Actually, I feel that Icarus AND Rob NOT liking this "REAL" retro shit, with no advanced scoring stuff, a GOOD sign!

If not for me, than at least for the tournament!

[The Coop]

Can't we find a retro game that doesn't rely on this? I thought the point of retro week was going to be having to rely on the more "old fashioned skills", not just be an older version of what we've already done twice now.

I feel like you didn't read my post. How would a 10 or 20,000 point bonus be relying on boss milking. And how is this not about "old-fashioned skills." You have to survive 5+ enemies and the boss shooting directly at you. This will become very hard quickly.

Simple... if you don't milk, you're score is lower. Which means that if you really want a chance at getting a good score position in the final standings, you'd have to milk.

And with my comment about "Old Fashioned", in games like Stargate, Galaga, Xevious (I think), 1942 (again, I think) and whatnot, there's no milking. It's straight up fire at enemies, try to kill as many as you can for points, try to get the end of stage bonuses higher by getting better hit ratios (assuming the game uses this scoring technique), and if there's a boss, the only real points you get are for killing it (some games if I recall have a clock, and the faster you kill it, the more points you get). There was nothing to milk. Just simple, straight forward "kill or be killed", and the further you got, the higher your points were.

That's part of the reason I'm pushing for Stargate as a potential entry. There are bonuses abound for it, there is no final boss, and there's nothing to milk. It's not about how long you can get points off of a boss before you kill it, it's about getting points by making it further into the game. And I believe it's that notion that should be at the heart of retro week, regardless of which game is choosen.

[Icarus]

Actually, I feel that Icarus AND Rob NOT liking this "REAL" retro shit, with no advanced scoring stuff, a GOOD sign!

If not for me, than at least for the tournament!

Wrong. I love retro. I prefer retro that is enjoyable and not of the sluggish, slow and boring kind, especially in a competition. I actually want to play games that are fun, not games that make me want to fall asleep five seconds after picking up the controller.

There are games that are still good even after being spoiled on today's releases. Then there are games that haven't stood the test of time at all. I'd rather we avoid the latter when shortlisting games for the tournament.

Yes, I get the idea. The point is getting hammered into the ground. Xevious does not appeal to everyone, especially since it's more limited in comparison to newer games.

Xev was great for its time, and it spawned many shmup conventions - enemy formations, ground bombing etc - but time has not been kind to Xev as it has been to other older classics. There are some games that just haven't aged as well as they could have, and for me, Xev is one of them. Everything about it feels slow and sluggish now, even after comparing it to other games of its age.

There are games like Time Pilot '84, Juno First, Defender, UFO Robo Dangar, Terra Cresta and so on that still hold up even today.

[BrianC]

Yeah, I guess it's a bit different for me. I love newer shmups just about as much as I love retro ones and playing newer games like Rayforce, Shikigami no Shiro 2, or Gradius V hasn't spoiled older shmups for me one bit. I'm glad I have Saturn now. That system has some sweet shmups, though currently I only have Rayforce (Galactic Attack) and some MSX shmups (in Konami Antiques MSX Collection Ultra Pack) for it.

[Rob]

Simple... if you don't milk, you're score is lower. Which means that if you really want a chance at getting a good score position in the final standings, you'd have to milk.

If people here were trying to endlessly milk a boss (which I don't even think is possible judging by the alleged record score posted) no one's game would last long. It's hard (especially as boss patterns get tough) and is 100% survival-based, unlike Blazing Star.

It's not about how long you can get points off of a boss before you kill it, it's about getting points by making it further into the game. And I believe it's that notion that should be at the heart of retro week, regardless of which game is choosen.

Why do retro fans see two things that are essentially identical and think they are opposites? What difference is it to see how long you can survive in a Gun.Smoke boss battle or in an endless stage? No difference.

"Getting further" is the hang-up here. This is a scoring competition remember. Also note if you were able to clear Gun.Smoke I'm certain that would be better than any other score (the boss bonuses rise incrementally, I'd guess to 100,000 points or more).

[The Coop]

Simple... if you don't milk, you're score is lower. Which means that if you really want a chance at getting a good score position in the final standings, you'd have to milk.

If people here were trying to endlessly milk a boss (which I don't even think is possible judging by the alleged record score posted) no one's game would last long. It's hard (especially as boss patterns get tough) and is 100% survival-based, unlike Blazing Star.

It's doesn't really matter if it's hard. The point I'm making is, milking is involved. This makes scoring not just about blowing things up, but milking bosses as well... which we've already done twice.

It's not about how long you can get points off of a boss before you kill it, it's about getting points by making it further into the game. And I believe it's that notion that should be at the heart of retro week, regardless of which game is choosen.

Why do retro fans see two things that are essentially identical and think they are opposites? What difference is it to see how long you can survive in a Gun.Smoke boss battle or in an endless stage? No difference.

There's a big difference if you ask me. One is what we've already been doing stage after stage in the last two games, the other isn't. One is about battling a pattern of bullets and ships being shot out by a single enemy, while the other is about avoiding more numerous and mobile ships as they fire bullets from all over the screen. Battling through a stage of enemies in Gaiares or Thunder Force II is going to offer up different challenges when compared to battling a boss from those games. The same can be said for Gun Smoke.

"Getting further" is the hang-up here. This is a scoring competition remember. Also note if you were able to clear Gun.Smoke I'm certain that would be better than any other score (the boss bonuses rise incrementally, I'd guess to 100,000 points or more).

C'mon Rob, do you honestly think I'm talking about simply getting to a higher stage? You get higher scores for making it to stage 21 in a game like Stargate or Galaga than you do for making it to stage 10. You know this as well as I.

[Twiddle]

This isn't anything like Blazing Star. At all.

Yeah, in Blazing Star you have literally no chance of dying during milking unless you fall (half) asleep. In Gun.Smoke (arcade) they come at you faster and faster until it's nearly impossible to escape.

I have the feeling that if Gun.Smoke or something like it in terms of fun value isn't on there this will be a worse week than Psikyo week.

C'mon Rob, do you honestly think I'm talking about simply getting to a higher stage? You get higher scores for making it to stage 21 in a game like Stargate or Galaga than you do for making it to stage 10. You know this as well as I.

The point is that Gun.Smoke actually ends, and Stargate and Galaga stop getting harder after a certain point (well before the 255 or whatever levels). There is little difference in the tactics being used to score as high as possible, other than that Gun.Smoke gives you extends much less frequently.

[Rob]

the other is about avoiding more numerous and mobile ships as they fire bullets from all over the screen.

You should play GS because this is exactly the same. The milking is from common enemies found on the stage (the 5+ in addition to the boss). They move around the screen in reaction to your character and shoot directly at you. It plays almost identically to the stage itself, with the added layer of the boss attack.

[Twiddle]

Code: Select all

GUN SMOKE
NFC ZEUS
MAYCOM SCORE
4.520.600
ALL 10 STAGE CLEAR

how much full-rank milking did this take :V

[Rob]

Haha. Damn you for making people here think they can/have to do that.

(my "high score": 350,000 ~_~)

edit: tried Xevious I remember this game.

[Twiddle]

Haha. Damn you for making people here think they can/have to do that.

Hey, unlike Galaga or Xevious that's not quite running the counter over about 12 times

[DJ Incompetent]

Ahhhh, Retro week. Perhaps the Skim Milk of the tourney?

A fine place to cast a vote would be here:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 492#173492

Now I'm going to duck under a rock somewhere until the Gun.Smoke Xevious mobs pass by...

[The Coop]

Ahhhh, Retro week. Perhaps the Skim Milk of the tourney?

A fine place to cast a vote would be here:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 492#173492

Now I'm going to duck under a rock somewhere until the Gun.Smoke Xevious mobs pass by...

I think we both got snubbed on this one Rob

[BrianC]

Exerion got chosen? Isn't that a pseudo 3D game?

[Edge]

Exerion got chosen? Isn't that a pseudo 3D game? It's not even a shmup!

Exerion is a shmup for sure, the pseudo 3D feeling does not really matter for it's gameplay which is strictly 2D. The same way as Juno First is a shmup.

[BrianC]

Exerion got chosen? Isn't that a pseudo 3D game? It's not even a shmup!

Exerion is a shmup for sure, the pseudo 3D feeling does not really matter for it's gameplay which is strictly 2D. The same way as Juno First is a shmup.

oh ok. I have/don't have the Famicom version. It's in one of those Famiclone N64 controller things I got as a gift.

[Rob]

I think we both got snubbed on this one Rob

At least my rule briefing made it.

I can't believe Section Z made it over GS. Ewww.

[professor ganson]

What's wrong with Section Z? It seems like it controls beautifully, there's plenty of action and scoring opportunities. I doubt I'll like it as much as Gun.Smoke, but it seems like a quality game. I'll be fine with playing it.

I'm less confident that I'll enjoy Star Force because the chopped version I played on the SNES this morning seemed a bit simplistic and lacking in character.

[Rob]

Section Z is bad. Seriously. 4/10

-Scoring opportunities? There's the 10,000 pt. sign, which everyone can get by sitting on it. You can kill a few extra ~100 pt. enemies like spike balls popping horizontally out of the tubes. Or die in a decent scoring spot and do it over (like before a spinning sign).
-fire power is weak, efforts to power up are quickly lost
-it's heavily a memorizer towards the end in the worst way possible
-hit detection is questionable

I like the Shadow of the Beast-like soundtrack, though.

[Twiddle]

its retro so it must be good

[Rob]

It loops, oh boy. Those laser walls in W are BS.

[professor ganson]

Section Z is bad. Seriously. 4/10

-Scoring opportunities? There's the 10,000 pt. sign, which everyone can get by sitting on it. You can kill a few extra ~100 pt. enemies like spike balls popping horizontally out of the tubes. Or die in a decent scoring spot and do it over (like before a spinning sign).
-fire power is weak, efforts to power up are quickly lost
-it's heavily a memorizer towards the end in the worst way possible
-hit detection is questionable

I like the Shadow of the Beast-like soundtrack, though.

Those sound like serious issues. Well, at least the controls feel very natural. And I still imagine I'll enjoy it more than Star Force.