Dungeon crawler recomendations

[Lethe]

Unfortunately the story gets very bad and quite wordy again in later strata. Doesn't seem to ever get quite as verbose as the first dungeon, but it never goes back to the brisk, lighthearted fun of 1 and 2 either. I started on lunatic difficulty but switched to hard later. Lunatic makes the random encounters even easier, which isn't good, and makes some of the bosses really dumb. You can still rematch the lunatic versions of bosses later, and the game even says that hard is what it was balanced around. Despite how it may appear, you can do and unlock everything the game has to offer on all difficulty settings.

The gameplay is good. The party building and boss fights are still solid like one would expect from this series. The dungeons seem more complex than in the last two games. It took a while to solve all the puzzles in the sokoban dungeon. So far I think 2 was better overall though. 2 has a higher boss frequency, and the playable character abilties in 3 are often needlessly complex. I liked starting with every character's full moveset and picking up support abilities over time in 2 better than building up a moveset over time in 3, and I really don't care for the abilities that only work on certain turns, or the abilities you can't use until you build up character specific resources.

Yeah I agree with you in principle, I don't think it's as good at LoT2 either. Tri puts more emphasis on the jarpiggy stuff (unlocking characters via materials, persistent upgrade crafting, multiple separate grinding aid mechanics) at the cost of cutting the boss count in half, removing all FOEs and optional bosses... something comparable happens with the writing - it's so wordy in many places, yet some characters don't even get an intro scene. I'm left thinking, shouldn't there be something here? The parts after the route split work a lot better after the comparative slump midgame, those side mechanics gain legitimacy as the game starts expecting more of you.

I'm not sure how much the Lunatic level limits really affected me. I'd have to see how the numbers work out side-by-side to tell, nothing that struck me as particularly unfair wouldn't still be unfair with higher stats. You keep skill points from going over the limit, so Hard and Lunatic are likely to have access to the same skills at the same boss anyway. Without any other factors going on the default solution to a Tri boss is rocket tag, which I guess was technically also true in LoT2, but you didn't have anywhere near as many knobs to turn to help get there.

There are loads of good changes, lots of little distinguishing new character details, the revised status effects (instant death now damaging bosses for a % of their current HP for instance), types previously with a hopeless lack of support are now more complete and playable, like offensive Sanae, macho Wriggle, attacker Aya etc. My only problem with the skill trees is how bumpy they make character power levels, otherwise I'm very positive. Love the new WRY status, just a vastly superior take on Press Turns. Somehow ATB manipulation and quickswapping are even more overpowered than before (it's not a 4-turn requirement if you get 4 turns before the boss can do anything).

As to the story, the first third is mostly interminable, the middle third turns into a paint-by-numbers nothingburger, and the final third is when it finally gets going, at which point I thought it was rather likable. Probably one of the better fangame stories. There are still lots of parts that are inelegantly longwinded and/or overbearing in the expositing and explaining, but I acquired a tolerance for that and the presented themes were just fine. It's amusing to me how the story's quality is inversely proportional to the amount of attention the Hifuus are being given, the more sidelined and irrelevant they get, the better the story gets. Truly forever useless.

Anyway I've been complaining far too much. tl;dr it's good - better than a whole lot of games - but it's dragging its feet for the first 2/3rds and isn't as tightly made as the last one.

[Vanguard]

I thought that trying to survive Marisa's final attack was pretty dumb on Lunatic for one. I hear that attack got nerfed and the rest of the fight got buffed though. I don't like that encounters are even easier on lunatic since you get more EXP, money, and a lot more item drops compared to hard, and it does nothing to make encounters harder. Especially since the author put a little effort into the random encounters this time. They're a lot more interesting when you can turn up the difficulty with despair crystals, and I thought having a unique miniboss horde fight on every floor went a long way towards making up the small number of bosses. I certainly preferred them over 2's FOEs, which were a good premise with a bad execution.

I don't think the story ever became any good. I suppose the last 1/4 of the story is the best part by default because the first 1/4's groundhog day scenario made the repetitive writing twice as bad, and the middle part was about Touhous wallowing in their regrets. What a terrible premise for Touhou characters of all things.

The gameplay is good though. The unbalanced parts are often unbalanced in a way that's fun to play and the bosses were as solid as ever even if there weren't enough of them. You still get a ton of unique characters and putting a party together is full of interesting choices, perhaps even moreso now that characters change so much as they level up.

I definitely would prefer that there weren't so many RPG subsystems and chores to do at the base. The break item system or the library gacha are totally unneeded bloat. I like the premise of Cirno's shop as being the black market from Angband, but it stopped mattering too soon because she never sells any of the real good stuff.

Looking forward to the plus disk in the next few years.

Speaking of Labyrinth of Touhou, I cannot get the first game to run in fullscreen at all. It worked on my previous windows 7 computer but not my current windows 10 one. Have any of you ran into that? Is there a fix?

[it290]

Haven't tried the demo, but this one looks like a solid Dungeon Master-like: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2411200/Underkeep/

[guigui]

Labyrinth of touhou : any entry of this series on the switch ?
I get so many weird titles listed when I search for them that I am not even sure.

[Vanguard]

Labyrinth of touhou : any entry of this series on the switch ?
I get so many weird titles listed when I search for them that I am not even sure.

Looks like Labyrinth of Touhou 2 is on the Japanese switch online store, but not the English version
https://store-jp.nintendo.com/item/soft ... 0000029261

2 doesn't seem to let you change languages in-game, so you'd be stuck playing in Japanese. 3 does let you change languages in game so if that shows up on consoles it may be viable to buy the JP version but play in English.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Caves of Qud on Switch... First, it wasn't even in "new releases", I had to buy it from "Upcoming" (that may have been fixed). Secondly, there's (understandably) a lot of controls and the tutorial only covers basic (like I have no idea how to access the menu on top of one's action log on the right), nor does it seem to offer any 'cheat sheet' one can quickly pull up from the pause menu or whatnot. It will totally be one of those games that if I don't play for a few days I'll have no idea how to do anything anymore

[Sima Tuna]

Caves of Qud on Switch... First, it wasn't even in "new releases", I had to buy it from "Upcoming" (that may have been fixed). Secondly, there's (understandably) a lot of controls and the tutorial only covers basic (like I have no idea how to access the menu on top of one's action log on the right), nor does it seem to offer any 'cheat sheet' one can quickly pull up from the pause menu or whatnot. It will totally be one of those games that if I don't play for a few days I'll have no idea how to do anything anymore

If you want to ask me anything about the game generally (not switch version,) I will be happy to answer. I play the game a lot on my Steam Deck and I do plan to buy the switch version eventually. I just spent too much on games this last month.

Some of the macros are shown on the actual display screen for Qud. Mostly, what you will be using all the time are the "explore," "get," "inventory," "ability" and general movement commands. Auto explore is necessary because the explore function will automatically seek out little painted pieces of pottery which you, the player, might otherwise miss. These engravings and paintings can lead you to new dungeons, shopkeepers or provide you with a bankable XP pile to turn in to the Resheph fanboy hanging out at the entrance of the Six-Day Stilt.

The worst RNG is at the beginning of a run. Your first goal should be to find a full set of some decent armor. Easiest way to do this is farming Snapjaw drops. Snapjaws are one of the only enemy types that even a Pilgrim with bongwater stats and no gear can reliably kill, and they carry wearable items on them.

The two types of characters are *Mutant* and *True Kin.* Mutants have a standard RPG growth system, where you can buy mutations at the start of the run, then generate mutation points/rapid advancement as you level, and use those points to either make your existing mutations stronger or gamble on buying new mutations. Mutations have a lot of potential synergies and generally provide a hard early start but a smooth curve of progression, since you aren't reliant on drops. True Kin are the opposite. True Kin are vault dwellers, basically. You start out with a bunch of advanced technology and solid gear, plus higher stats than a Mutant. But you don't get any mutations. Instead, you can upgrade your character at Becoming Nooks, which allow you to install cybernetics. However! The system is very disjointed in progression. It can be a very long time going from the character generation to installing your NEXT cybernetic. You have to find a nook, you have to have free credits available and a space on your body to install the cybernetic, plus you need the actual cybernetic you want. Just finding a good cybernetic can take a while, and the ones you buy from shops are hella expensive in early game.

I have a soft spot for True Kin, but Mutant is generally seen as the better start for most players. I like True Kin because the arcologies are cool and it's nice you don't have to gear as much in the early game. You can still upgrade your character via leveling skills, so skills take on more of a priority with True Kin than they do Mutants. Mutants can use mutations like psychometry to get around certain skill/stat walls.

[m.sniffles.esq]

Some of the macros are shown on the actual display screen for Qud

Yeah, going up or down is available pushing up/down on the d-pad. But because the likelihood of me forgetting something is high (to say the least) I was curious as to how you can access things there

(btw, it doesn't seem like anyone knows how to access it docked, although apparently you can use the touchscreen undocked)

[Sima Tuna]

Some of the macros are shown on the actual display screen for Qud

Yeah, going up or down is available pushing up/down on the d-pad. But because the likelihood of me forgetting something is high (to say the least) I was curious as to how you can access things there

(btw, it doesn't seem like anyone knows how to access it docked, although apparently you can use the touchscreen undocked)

There should also be a button combination that will allow you to pull up the ability menu by itself, which you can use to sort your abilities and also access the entire list in one place.

[m.sniffles.esq]

There should also be a button combination that will allow you to pull up the ability menu by itself

I guess you can assign a key-bind for every item in that menu, but the only way to access the menu itself is through touchscreen... Unfortunately, I'm not real positive what all the items even are.

Despite it all, I'm kind of into it? It reminds me of getting pirated version of Questron or Ultima for the c64. Where you had no instructions, no real idea what you were doing or how things worked, but you kind of fucked around and gradually you began to make things work.

(even though the tutorial never tells you, people have discovered how to zoom, which has been HUGE, as handheld was pretty much impossible without it.)

(also, I love that the dev has been addressing various issues with "Really? That sucks. Yeah, I'll guess I'll have to fix that at some point...")

[Sima Tuna]

I have zoom in and out bound to buttons on the steam deck. I didn't realize they weren't in by default for the Switch version? You absolutely want the ability to zoom in and out, because there are threats that can nuke you as soon as they see you on the map (even from a full map screen away) but the rest of the time, you probably don't want to play "Qud for Ants."

[guigui]

The Class of Heroes games : I would like to try one of them.

CoH 1 and CoH 2 are at a fair price for now and I'm wondering which one I should choose if I only get to play one ? There is also the 1+2 bundle if both games have their own merit, though I'd say if they are not that much distinct I certainly wont play both.
There is also CoH 3, but it is priced higher and I'm unsure if it is worth the expense.

Any recommendations appreciated.

[cj iwakura]

The Class of Heroes games : I would like to try one of them.

CoH 1 and CoH 2 are at a fair price for now and I'm wondering which one I should choose if I only get to play one ? There is also the 1+2 bundle if both games have their own merit, though I'd say if they are not that much distinct I certainly wont play both.
There is also CoH 3, but it is priced higher and I'm unsure if it is worth the expense.

Any recommendations appreciated.

They're cutesy DRPGs with minimal plot and some fun mechanics, but they're largely forgettable and threadbare. Why Victor Ireland wanted to bet the farm on them(and Summon Night) is beyond me. I'd say play 2 and see if it's your speed, 1 is just dull and has almost nothing innovative.

[Sima Tuna]

I haven't played much of either CoH 1 or 3. 3 seemed to have the most quality of life features out of all the games. CoH 2 is a fun time but the crafting system is absurdly complex and annoying to use, yet also mandatory.

[guigui]

Thank you for the words on Class of Heroes. Now I dont think I'm going to get one, not much time to play after all.

Only DRPGs I played up to the end appear to be Labyrinth of Yomi, Metro Quester and Legend of Amberland. I dropped on Dungeon Encounter and The Lost Child for instance and wait for a decent price drop on Potato Flower in Full Bloom.
Any other recomendations on the NSW appreciated.

[cj iwakura]

Lost Child was a fun not-SMT ish RPG, I liked the characters and mechanics enough, though it wasn't anything memorable. You can do worse than impersonating the vibe of Soul Hackers, though.

[Sima Tuna]

I've been grinding out Dragon Ruins 2.

It's more of a real game than Dragon Ruins 1 but also pretty repetitive and still mostly plays itself. The art does a lot to carry the experience.

[1000Eyes]

I wonder if any roguelike fans here ever tried the Michael Brough games? Stuff like 868-HACK, whose sequel came out a few weeks ago in the form of 868-BACK. I've been having a lot of fun with the latter, and generally these games improve a lot on the classic western roguelikes I've played. They are ruthlessly tactics focused - no heavy adventuring flavoring found in stuff like Nethack, think more board games like Chess or Go - with small grid sizes and generally good scoring systems that should appeal to arcade fans. I'll write a little blurb about his two most interesting projects I've played, which are Cinco Paus and 868-BACK.

Cinco Paus, which is supposed to be Portuguese for "5 Wands" but it's apparently deliberately mangled, looks bewildering at first because all the text is in Portuguese. This is supposed to facilitate a whimsical rules learning layer at first, but fortunately you can look up a guide and skip this stuff in like 15 mins. The roguelike at the center revolves around using the titular 5 wands, each with 5 abilities. The catch is you don't know what they do, and have to find a way to gain info. The cool part is that this game is rigorously spatial: it wants to tie everything to the currency that is space and enemies, so the primary way to identify wands is to fire it at an empty square or an enemy. The depth comes from this game of risk management, since you have to constantly push for info, and live with whatever effects the wands decide to give you. This isn't a mindless process since there are situations where it might be more beneficial not to fire at an enemy and vice versa, depending on your own calculation of how to fall back, if there is enough space and resources to recover, if the effects might be unfavorable. To even the odds the environment and enemies are highly manipulable by the wand's effects, so even one good wand ability used correctly might cause a domino chain that conquers a floor. All the complexity comes from the push and pull of the random but powerful effects of the wands, so much so the enemies literally all have the same behavior, which is to home to your location and are differentiated only by hitpoints. Yet, the wand effects and the constrained grid create a myriad of situations.

Tying this up is a scoring system that creates a really memorable long-form structure. The scoring just involves collecting items. You can't milk a room because wands are only recharged by exiting it, and eventually it gets flooded by enemies which give you nothing for killing them since there is no exp or gold. You sometimes get abilities that creates additional items, and it creates a lot of thought because they can conflict with your need to kill things fast. The true innovation here is that a big long term goal of the game involves getting artifacts, single-use items with a lot less restrictions than wands, which can help turn the tide against enemies who start getting their own RNG wands at the deeper dungeon levels. Getting artifacts require you to get a very specific type of score item, so basically you have to do a lite version of scoring to arms race with the game. It creates tension even in easy floors, because you then wonder if you've optimized all the the items needed to get artifacts, and whether you've just traded good short term survival for a busted long-term economy. Of course, prioritizing artifacts means giving up on more lucrative but useless score items.

I haven't played 868-BACK as much to really gauge it as it's new, but it seems to be a fun, deep game on its own as well. Unlike Cinco Paus, this is a game where you are given a bunch of squares the contain random abilities and resources. Taking those resources means spawning an amount of enemies dependent on whatever the advertised cost was. You could just not take anything and head to the exit, but each floor spawns more and more enemies regardless, so it becomes increasingly impractical to ignore those gambits. Scoring is the same thing, except the score block itself doesn't give you any resources. Of course, this is just the surface, and there are a lot of systems in the game that builds on this simple foundation, but I'll tell you when I feel like I have a good handle on it.

Can't recommend these enough. They work well both as coffee break games and long epic journeys, and I would unhesitatingly recommend this even to people new to roguelikes. Not because they are easy, you'll probably spend a few hours not making it out the first few floors, but they hone in and refine the tactical core of the genre without the intimidating scope that so many of the classic games have. No need to worry about stories or hidden knowledge, just focus on making choices that the game hands out to you.

[jpd66]

I wonder if any roguelike fans here ever tried the Michael Brough games?

Nice to hear mention of the games of Michael Brough! I first heard of his games way back in 2017. At the time, I was pretty into tabletop gaming and by chance, came across a thread on BGG where someone was praising the design ethos of this guy Michael Brough, who made weird, wonderful computer games that didn’t hold your hand and threw you into the action without explaining much about how things worked- games that were cryptic, dynamic, and deep. This all sounded kinda interesting, so I got 868-HACK and Corrypt. Corrypt was kinda cool, but ultimately seemed a little arcane and not immediately accessible for my taste.

On the other hand, 868-HACK pulled me in big time. I’m still playing it to this day! I don’t even want to know how many hundreds, or even thousands of hours I’ve spent playing this game. Anyway, it’s great. I think your observation regarding the potential for depth and longevity with Michael’s games definitely applies, at least with regard to 868-HACK. I would also mention that almost all of my play has been with utilizing the PLAN.B expansion, which adds a lot of extra bells and whistles that really inject a ton of variety into the base game. One of my most played and favorite games ever, full stop. And funny that I came to it from the tabletop angle. I actually have no experience with classic roguelike video games proper. Anyway, when I get to it, I’m gonna give 868-BACK a whirl. And maybe some of his other stuff. I expect it all to be good and interesting. Cool to see him mentioned. Cheers!

[Klatrymadon]

90% off the goat:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/2919 ... ge_Gothic/

(Elminage is Starfish's own series of close Wizardry clones, which they started doing after their licence for the Empire games expired — Gothic can be a helluva slog for the first few hours but there's a big uptick in dungeon quality eventually.)