Best version of Gradius III?

[Sweatlord_STG]

I have never really played this game so far. I casually played the SFC version a little bit, but that was ages ago.

From what I understand, the game is a mess, but still popular in Japan. It was rushed, then there was the unreleased (until recently) AM version, which is rebalanced, but it's unfinished (too). IIRC Konami considers the SFC version an improvement as additional thought/time/polish was put into it, but it also lacks two stages or so of the arcade version.

So my question is: Which version should I play? Should I play it at all? The Gradius games are not exactly known for being easy and the regular arcade version of Gradius III is supposed to be borderline impossible.

But then there is also this hack for the SFC version: https://github.com/VitorVilela7/SA1-Roo ... radius-III

"This SA-1 Root reduces most of the orignal game's slowdown and lag and minimizes the overall loading time. As a side effect, the game is now much more difficult. [This patch] reduces the speeds of most of the Gradius III bosses, making it closer to the original game speed, but still without slowdown being used."

Might this be the ultimate version of Gradius III?

[Firehawke]

Opinions will vary quite a bit on this subject.

Mine is that there's no perfect version, there's tradeoffs no matter which you pick. The SNES games has high levels of slowdown, but so does the arcade version. The stages on SNES are mostly better, but the game is a bit shorter.

The SA-1 patch is another tradeoff decision. The baseline patch removes all slowdown, including bosses. The Origin patch removes slowdown outside of bosses. Neither could be seen as what Konami would have wanted in a perfect world, but I'd argue that tackling Dellinger Core with zero slowdown is probably even less what they'd wanted.

FWIW, Gradius 3 SNES has always been my main favorite.

[Sweatlord_STG]

Opinions will vary quite a bit on this subject.

Of course, I was just curious to hear people's opinions I will definitely check out all versions myself anyway.

Mine is that there's no perfect version, there's tradeoffs no matter which you pick. The SNES games has high levels of slowdown, but so does the arcade version. The stages on SNES are mostly better, but the game is a bit shorter.

The SA-1 patch is another tradeoff decision. The baseline patch removes all slowdown, including bosses. The Origin patch removes slowdown outside of bosses. Neither could be seen as what Konami would have wanted in a perfect world, but I'd argue that tackling Dellinger Core with zero slowdown is probably even less what they'd wanted.

FWIW, Gradius 3 SNES has always been my main favorite.

But one version I posted (by GuyPerfect) supposedly removes the slowdown from the SFC version and rebalances the game, in order to avoid the missing slowdown making the game harder. I think that's an interesting one.

I mean, I don't even mind the slowdown. I just thought it sounded like an ambitious project. I understand that the difficulty of many old games was balanced with the slowdown in mind, so removing the slowdown would just break the game. I don't even mind playing Metal Slug 2 for that matter

[Firehawke]

That's the one I'm talking about, the Origin version. It's perhaps closer to a perfected version, but it's still stupid levels of hard towards the end (cosmo plant and the fortress) when you start getting massive waves of bullets with minimal space in-between. Mind you, I do play on Arcade difficulty via the code, so my opinions are going to be based on what my experience would be.

[Sweatlord_STG]

That's the one I'm talking about, the Origin version. It's perhaps closer to a perfected version, but it's still stupid levels of hard towards the end (cosmo plant and the fortress) when you start getting massive waves of bullets with minimal space in-between. Mind you, I do play on Arcade difficulty via the code, so my opinions are going to be based on what my experience would be.

Awesome, I'm looking forward to playing it via FXPak Pro and on CRT A few months ago I also got a nice upgrade for my SFC. Someone made their own version of the SNESRGB by Voultar. The SNES outputs RGB by default, but I always disliked its blurry image and wished it was simply as sharp as the one of other old consoles. Even the image quality of the 1CHIP model can vary to a certain extend from model to model, if I remember correctly. So this mod fixes it (for any model) and the image becomes razor sharp. When I got my console back I was surprised because I had never seen the video looking this good. I just wanted to test it briefly but then I had it hooked up for weeks because I liked it so much and I played so many games again

[Sumez]

IIRC Konami considers the SFC version an improvement as additional thought/time/polish was put into it, but it also lacks two stages or so of the arcade version.

Those stages are not really missed IMO.

"This SA-1 Root reduces most of the orignal game's slowdown and lag and minimizes the overall loading time. As a side effect, the game is now much more difficult. [This patch] reduces the speeds of most of the Gradius III bosses, making it closer to the original game speed, but still without slowdown being used."

Might this be the ultimate version of Gradius III?

The hack is a fun "what-if" scenario, but obviously the SFC version was designed around the slowdown being there, because it was there when the devs made it. It does have a lot of slowdown, but it never bothered me. It's a really good port, and if you find it too easy, the "Arcade" difficulty setting has a bit more teeth.

[Hazuki]

Yeah, that 3D stage from the AC version is garbage and doesn't even have any shooting, so good riddance.

However, the SFC version is also unfortunately missing many cool details like the sand lions from the desert stage or the Wyvern (3-headed dragon) from the prominence stage. I still prefer it for being more balanced overall, though. The presentation at the beginning is awesome too.

[Sumez]

Also gotta love the arcade startup on SFC, with the geometry grid popping up for a moment. Really felt like they were aiming for that arcade experience at home. The attract mode slaps!

[utsunderthesky]

I think the SNES version is best, minus the slowdown.

The bubble stage is beatable without being fully powered haha

[Sweatlord_STG]

So in the SFC version the cube rush is missing and what else?

[Firehawke]

Cube Rush is gone and it replaces the zero-enemy high speed sprite scaler stage with a Gradius 2-style high speed fortress stage.

[pegboy]

The cell stage and fortress levels are also totally different in the snes version with different bosses. Also the cell stage is now the final level. You also have a new high speed stage with a new boss right before the boss rush.

[Mortificator]

So in the SFC version the cube rush is missing and what else?

A lot. Some of this has already been mentioned; I'll re-mention it for completion's sake.

* The desert stage is missing its sand lions
* The Moai stage is missing its Moai spawners and miniboss. It also has a different end of stage boss
* The fire stage is missing the huge Ghidorah miniboss. Fireballs also don't produce suicide fire blasts, so getting through them is mindless
* The cube rush stage and its boss are missing
* The boss rush is missing Tetran. The remaining bosses are fought in a different order, but that doesn't really matter

The sprite scaler high speed stage is replaced with a high speed stage very similar to Gradius II's, that has a boss.

The power-up selection gains some new ones (hawk wind, 2-way back missile, back double, formation option, rolling option, rolling shield, full barrier), loses some arcade ones (control missile, upper missile, free way, spread gun, free shield), and changes the behavior of others (most notably reduce).

G3 arcade has both a cell stage (stage 6) and an epic final stage (stage 11) where you fight through a fortress area, then a second cell area, then a second high speed area after killing Bacterion for your last escape. The SNES has stage 9 be the fortress and stage 10 be its only cell area. So much is lost here it's practically its own topic:

* No blasting your way into the fortress
* No ceiling and floor throwing themselves at you
* No mini-Crabs
* No rotating lasers
* No Shadow Gear. It's replaced by Gradius II Crabs
* No indestructible bouncing tumors flanked by regenerating walls
* No tight cannon-lined corridor guarded by antennoids (and what would be the arcade's third antennoid scenario replaces them with blue cells)
* No Golem-esque cell boss, just Bacterion
* No high speed escape

I like it when console versions do something unique. Konami did this very well with the NES Contra and Super Contra. With Gradius III SNES, almost all the changes are cut thing entirely or replace thing with copy-paste Gradius II thing. If I wanted to play Gradius II, I'd play Gradius IV.

And of course it's incredibly easy. Which is not to say I conquered Gradius III arcade. The best I've done so far is difficulty 3 on the PS2 Gradius III and IV compilation. That version also has checkpoint select and extra edit, which adds some of the SNES-exclusive power-ups (including its tweaked reduce by the name "reduce II"). I had a much more varied, challenging, and fun time with that Gradius III arcade than the SNES.

[Sweatlord_STG]

So in the SFC version the cube rush is missing and what else?

A lot. Some of this has already been mentioned; I'll re-mention it for completion's sake.

* The desert stage is missing its sand lions
* The Moai stage is missing its Moai spawners and miniboss. It also has a different end of stage boss
* The fire stage is missing the huge Ghidorah miniboss. Fireballs also don't produce suicide fire blasts, so getting through them is mindless
* The cube rush stage and its boss are missing
* The boss rush is missing Tetran. The remaining bosses are fought in a different order, but that doesn't really matter

The sprite scaler high speed stage is replaced with a high speed stage very similar to Gradius II's, that has a boss.

The power-up selection gains some new ones (hawk wind, 2-way back missile, back double, formation option, rolling option, rolling shield, full barrier), loses some arcade ones (control missile, upper missile, free way, spread gun, free shield), and changes the behavior of others (most notably reduce).

G3 arcade has both a cell stage (stage 6) and an epic final stage (stage 11) where you fight through a fortress area, then a second cell area, then a second high speed area after killing Bacterion for your last escape. The SNES has stage 9 be the fortress and stage 10 be its only cell area. So much is lost here it's practically its own topic:

* No blasting your way into the fortress
* No ceiling and floor throwing themselves at you
* No mini-Crabs
* No rotating lasers
* No Shadow Gear. It's replaced by Gradius II Crabs
* No indestructible bouncing tumors flanked by regenerating walls
* No tight cannon-lined corridor guarded by antennoids (and what would be the arcade's third antennoid scenario replaces them with blue cells)
* No Golem-esque cell boss, just Bacterion
* No high speed escape

I like it when console versions do something unique. Konami did this very well with the NES Contra and Super Contra. With Gradius III SNES, almost all the changes are cut thing entirely or replace thing with copy-paste Gradius II thing. If I wanted to play Gradius II, I'd play Gradius IV.

And of course it's incredibly easy. Which is not to say I conquered Gradius III arcade. The best I've done so far is difficulty 3 on the PS2 Gradius III and IV compilation. That version also has checkpoint select and extra edit, which adds some of the SNES-exclusive power-ups (including its tweaked reduce by the name "reduce II"). I had a much more varied, challenging, and fun time with that Gradius III arcade than the SNES.

Wow! That is A LOT of differences!

Thank you for writing all of this! I didn't even take the possibility into account that Gradius III might be different on the PS2! I love playing on CRT so this version seems to be a great option as well!

I'm curious now, what do you mean by saying "If I wanted to play Gradius II, I'd play Gradius IV."?
I don't want to provide unnecessary information about myself, but I've been playing games since the 80s (with breaks in between), and it was always more casual (including the Gradius games), as it took me a long time to "get good", even a little, so now I'm at a point where I wanted to play the whole series again in order. So now is the first time that I'm actually very familiar with the games of the series that I have already dealt with so far (because I was able to 1CC them), and these are Gradius (Arcade, PCE, SS), Salamander (Arcade, PCE, SS), and Gradius II (Arcade, SS).
So going back to your statement, did you mean that Gradius IV was like Gradius II in a way, but better?

And of course it's incredibly easy.

What is? Gradius IV?

I just played the Arcade Archives version of Gradius III and it was lots of fun. Very addictive.

[pegboy]

Gradius iv is basically a remake of gradius ii in a lot of ways, thats what he' is referring to. Also he is saying that the snes gradius iii is pretty easy in comparison to the arcade version. I mean it really is trivial compared when you've played the ar ade giii.

Gradius iv is also pretty hard, not quite as bad as iii, but a big step up from the first 2 arcade games.

[SuperDeadite]

Comparing difficulty between arcade G3 and G4 is an interesting topic. I'd say 3 is harder on a tecnical level plus it's a really long game. However, 4's performace is a bit broken and does random weird buggy things that will just murder the player. 3 is tough but it's consistent, 4 often comes down to luck. (Note, I think a lot of 4's bugs were fixed on the ps2 port, but as a pcb owner I can tell you the game is a mess lol.)

[pegboy]

Interesting to know, ive only ever played iv on ps2, never the pcb or mame. Would be kind of interested to hear more about that because its legit the first time ive heard that the arcade version was bug ridden.

[SuperDeadite]

Interesting to know, ive only ever played iv on ps2, never the pcb or mame. Would be kind of interested to hear more about that because its legit the first time ive heard that the arcade version was bug ridden.

The one that always pisses me off is on the ice level. Often the ice clusters will speed up to insane hyper speeds and bounce around like pinballs. No idea what triggers it, but when it happens it's pure luck if a space opens long enough to squeeze through. The pcb is damn pretty on a real 24khz crt though.

[Sweatlord_STG]

The pcb is damn pretty on a real 24khz crt though.

I suppose the PS2 version is 15khz as consumer CRT TVs were not capable of 24khz?
If so, does the PS2 version of Gradius IV run in 240p or 480i? From what I understand, 15khz can be either ~240p (or similar resolutions close to this figure) or 480i.

[pegboy]

Ps2 version is 480i

[Sweatlord_STG]

Ps2 version is 480i

Thanks. I guess there was no other option because 15khz would have meant some of the lines would be "missing".

I just played through Gradius III (SFC/SNES) and I am shocked how much of this game consists of reused stuff from Gradius II

It's like 50%! So many bosses. And the rest is mostly also just like "take this, change it up a bit", like the stage with the trees and vulcanos could be seen as a slightly altered stage from Gradius II, same for the speed section, the "wall" boss in the fortress is very similar to the one in Gradius II, parts of the floor and ceiling coming at you, the floor raising and coming down from the top...

Click on the spoiler if you like bad jokes

Spoiler

They should have called it Recyclius: From Legend to Slowdown

[Klatrymadon]

Getting off-topic here, but while IV might be a re-run of Gofer for the most part, it has a lot of unique obstacles with behaviours that you don't see anywhere else in the series (the plants with coiling vines in stage 2, the growing tentacles in the cell stage, the bubbles that can't be destroyed while multiplying, the terrifying windmills in the high-speed stage, etc), so it manages to feel remarkably fresh in terms of its moment-to-moment encounters. It has weapon types that don't appear elsewhere, and loop 2 isn't a straight rank hike but sees some meaningful remixing too. It doesn't get enough credit for this stuff IMO — it may feel cheap 'n' cheerful but it's more than a mere rehash.

Love its early 90s UK gameshow soundtrack too.

[pegboy]

The main thing i hate about gradius iv is most of the lasers are worse than your basic shot.

Not a huge fan of the music either, its not terrible but its just odd and doesn't really fit in with the rest of the series.

All that said, the actual stages and boss fights are some of the better ones of the series.

[Sweatlord_STG]

And of course [Gradius III SFC is] incredibly easy.

Should I better not tell anybody if I clear it?

Getting off-topic here, but while IV might be a re-run of Gofer for the most part, it has a lot of unique obstacles with behaviours that you don't see anywhere else in the series (the plants with coiling vines in stage 2, the growing tentacles in the cell stage, the bubbles that can't be destroyed while multiplying, the terrifying windmills in the high-speed stage, etc), so it manages to feel remarkably fresh in terms of its moment-to-moment encounters. It has weapon types that don't appear elsewhere, and loop 2 isn't a straight rank hike but sees some meaningful remixing too. It doesn't get enough credit for this stuff IMO — it may feel cheap 'n' cheerful but it's more than a mere rehash.

Love its early 90s UK gameshow soundtrack too.

Awesome! Makes me look forward to playing it!

So do you guys agree with what I said about Gradius III SFC that it feels like a remix of Gradius II? Is the arcade version of Gradius III more different to Gradius II than the SFC version?

[Mortificator]

Hey, an easy clear is still a clear!

Every video game series has its traditions. Gradius loves its traditions with a fervor rarely matched. Moai stage, fortress wall boss, super-weak final boss... Gradius III is never INCREDIBLY different than II, but it does do more non-G2 stuff than G3 SNES, where some things were deliberately reverted.

Pegboy is of course exactly right concerning what I meant about the SNES version's difficulty and G2 --> G4.

[Sumez]

If I wanted to play Gradius II, I'd play Gradius IV.

Lol sick burn

"Gradius 2 things" in Gradius 3 definitely doesn't bother me, I think it complements it well. G3 Arcade and G3 SNES are two very different games, and I appreciate them doing something different with it, that still feels arcade-like in nature. Fom your list of changes, the only things I really miss are the majority of the cuts to the final stage. Though I never made it that far on arcade anyway.

I think the biggest argument against the SNES version which you also pointed out, is its rather low difficulty. But on "arcade" difficulty I think it still feels decently satisfying for a console shooter, even if it's not comparable to most actual arcade shooters.

So do you guys agree with what I said about Gradius III SFC that it feels like a remix of Gradius II? Is the arcade version of Gradius III more different to Gradius II than the SFC version?

I think it's overexaggerated. Gradius 3 is by no means a repeat of 2. The series in general likes to reuse the same concepts and even boss fights, which extends to the Parodius series as well. But they are all clearly distinct games!

If they ever make a new Gradius games, I'd much rather it felt like Gradius 2 than Grafius 5 for sure.

[Sweatlord_STG]

Hey, an easy clear is still a clear!

I've always been really bad at games so any clear is still a big a achievement for me

I don't want to make a point or say anybody is wrong, but I find it interesting so I wanted to compare to see what is not new in Gradius III SFC. I understand that many game series have reoccuring characters, themes, enemies, etc, which are a tradition and iconic for the series, but I thought this version of the game took it a bit too far. I thought it was okay to see stuff in Gradius II that was also in Salamander, but I was hoping to see more new stuff in Gradius III, even if it is "only" the SFC Version. Bare in mind that I haven't played some titles of the series properly yet, but I've played through I, II, and Salamander just recently and more than once.

Sand stage + sand boss: new
Bubble stage + bubble boss: new
Trees and vulcanos stage: reoccuring thing
Underground part after the tree stage: new
Mini boss Iron Maidens: reoccuring thing
Boss with the zig zag laser: new
Moai stage: reoccuring thing
Moai boss: reoccuring thing (as it is similar to the one from Gradius II, but you could say it's new due to the rocks that fall down from the ceiling)
Fire stage + dragon boss: reoccuring thing (first seen in Salamander)
Plant stage: reoccuring thing (first seen in Gradius 2 MSX)
Plant boss: new (?) (...is it? I'm not an expert)
Speed section: reoccuring thing
Boss with the blue balls from Salamander: new
Section with the things that randomly appear out of nowhere: reoccuring thing
Boss that first shoots the missles, then the big laser: exactly the same as in Gradius II
Boss that is partly made of ice: exactly the same as in Gradius II
Boss that shoots lasers: exactly the same as in Gradius II
Boss that shoots the missles that come from the top and the bottom: exactly the same as in Gradius II
Boss that shoots lasers then curls up and charges at you: new (?)
Fortress section: reoccuring thing
Wall boss: reoccuring thing
Floor and ceiling coming at you: reoccuring thing
Crab section: reoccuring thing
Meatball section: reoccuring thing
Shoot your way through organic stuff that quickly rebuilds itself: reoccuring thing
Defenseless brain: reoccuring thing

It's still a very cool game I think. Just a bit short of new stuff compared to all the reoccuring stuff, or bosses that are exactly the same as in Gradius II. The arcade version has a lot of slowdown as well from what I've played so far, so one couldn't even say the SFC version was worse in that regard. So that's also kind of a plus.

Btw has anybody seen the hitbox of the "reduce" ability, how it compares to the normal one?

[MJR]

Gradius III Snes version has also hidden difficulty level labeled ”arcade”. While its still nowhere as nasty as the arcade version, it contains decent challenge. If you beat that, the game says ”I give up. Your application: technical monkey” - whatever that means (I didnt look this up, it’s my recollection from over 30 years ago!)

[Sweatlord_STG]

Gradius III Snes version has also hidden difficulty level labeled ”arcade”. While its still nowhere as nasty as the arcade version, it contains decent challenge. If you beat that, the game says ”I give up. Your application: technical monkey” - whatever that means (I didnt look this up, it’s my recollection from over 30 years ago!)

Haha yes I also saw this today when I googled how to unlock the arcade difficulty setting.

Btw, since I'm playing the game on emulator anyway right now because my SFC is not set up (but I own the game, just saying), is there an emulator that allows you to disable the flicker (like NES emulation)? Because when I have all my options lined up horizontally, I can't even see my own ship. Kind of makes some situations a little harder ^^

Example:

Spoiler

[Klatrymadon]

IIRC it says "appellation", i.e. it's giving you the rank of "technical monkey".