if i dont like Ibara will i hate souky and garegga?

[Herr Schatten]

...it's still bad design, for heaven's sake, stop attempting to pass the shortcoming on to the players who "don't get it" (read: actually see it for what it is and are willing to say so). For Pete's sake, just because a game is your favorite doesn't make it flawless, deal with it.

Thank you for saying that.

[Randorama]

heretic words

Ehi, you're begging excommunication

[BulletMagnet]

You can't excommunicate me when I've never been a club member in the first place.

[Soldato J]

waitaminute.....1944 The Loop Master is by Raizing? ?!?

[Randorama]

You can't excommunicate me when I've never been a club member in the first place.

You're officially excommunicated! No Battle Garegga scores uploaded for you! And no bitching about this!

[Icarus]

waitaminute.....1944 The Loop Master is by Raizing? ?!?

Not officially 'by', Capcom developed and with support from Raizing.

[BulletMagnet]

You can't excommunicate me when I've never been a club member in the first place.

You're officially excommunicated!

...I stand corrected.

Of course, you do realize that now I'll have to work extra hard to top my old scores, so I can submit them just to clog up the thread and annoy you.

[Neon]

Honestly, some of the "justifications" out there for low bullet visibility in shmups border on the ludicrous (I especially love how some have tried to shrug off the all-obscuring overhang in Batrider). Granted, not everyone has the same standards for what's "easy to see" and what isn't (and yes, the "you get used to it" mantra has some merit to it), and if low visibility does exist by most standards it doesn't automatically make a game "bad" or not worth playing (despite my opinions of the practice, Garegga made my Top 25 this past year, not to mention that I'm helping with the ST), but it's still bad design, for heaven's sake, stop attempting to pass the shortcoming on to the players who "don't get it" (read: actually see it for what it is and are willing to say so). For Pete's sake, just because a game is your favorite doesn't make it flawless, deal with it.

Agreed somewhat, I have to question whether there really is a good reason for the invisibullets and I just don't get it, though

I don't really understand the complaint, anyway...you can use Red Ball in the port/mame and if you're participating in the scorecomp and forced to use normal you get used to them after awhile.

In the end, bad design I guess, but does it matter? A flaw, but a non issue.

But I know how much you hate my flawless game, BM, fucking heretic

I guess it's different with Batrider and the overhang thoe, I dunno, haven't played that in a long time.

[roker]

I'm biased, but if you can at least MAME it first, and give it chance, you'll see it shine

my favorite shmup, hands down

I've played through Bakraid, Batrider, and Garegga on MAME. I think they are decent shooters but simply overrated.

actually they're not rated

unless you count this board

it seems like no one outside of shmup fans have even heard of these games

but mention Ikaruga, Raiden, R-Type, Gradius, etc. etc., you'll find someone that knows a little about something

[Frederik]

I always wondered what people meant with "invisible bullets" in Garegga, after I discovered the version that is similar to the Saturn port that has those brass colored bullets instead of the white dots. THEN I knew what they meant.

And while those bullets might not be coloured with good visibility in mind, I like those slender, pointy bullets better than pink blobs and blue discs - it just looks awesome when the screen gets crowded with nails and bullets (Just to clear it: My avatar - Cave, my sig - Raizing, so no bias here), but somehow they are much harder to dodge then dots. Bullets in Ibara look much more threatening then those in DDP IMHO.

And what "overhang" in Batrider are we talking about? Those foregrounds in the highway level?

[Icarus]

And what "overhang" in Batrider are we talking about? Those foregrounds in the highway level?

Yes, just after you go through the tunnel (before the mech bosses in the Highway stage), where the hovertank usually stops for the Extend icon, is where the dreaded overhang appears. It makes it worse when the hovertank fires a very hard to dodge spread attack at you.

[CMoon]

We need a stickied thread to deal with people complaining about Garegga. Doesn't this come up 3 or 4 times a year? (more often than my favorite: 'which version of Thunderforce 5 is best?')

I never remember anyone ever saying the game wasn't flawed (don't know many flawless games anyway), but I swear every thread about Garegga is apologetic.

I'm tired of feeling like an outcast / retard (or an outcast retard) for liking Garegga.

Also, how the hell can Garegga be overrated? It isn't even in the top 25 anymore.

Ugh, anyway, I could actually see liking Garegga and not liking Ibara. The weird use of the bomb and the over all super-hectic feel to Ibara is rather off-putting. Garegga feels a lot looser & more creative. There are a lot of other factors than rank that make or break Ibara for someone, and it might be worth considering them.

[BulletMagnet]

I don't really understand the complaint, anyway...you can use Red Ball in the port/mame and if you're participating in the scorecomp and forced to use normal you get used to them after awhile.

In all honesty, I never found the red ball option very helpful...I haven't used it in some time, but IIRC the balls weren't even red, they were the same dull off-white color that most of the "round" bullets in the game are...easier to see than the normal bullets, but hardly a cure-all. Others find it more helpful than I do though, but after trying it once I just never bothered again.

In any event, although, as I said, the low bullet visibility hardly makes the game not worth playing (to the contrary, I consider Garegga something of a shmupping essential, one ought to at least try it out, even if it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea), but a "non-issue?" Sorry, but such a pervasive (and so freakin' easy to fix...Batrider and Bakraid had simple codes that allowed you to change bullet color, couldn't there have at least been an option for this?) flaw is a bit too much for me to just outright ignore altogether...especially when many who bother to point it out are immediately and unfairly bashed as "mindless Cave fanboys" or some other such total non-sequitur. I call 'em like I see 'em, and frankly I don't care who bellyaches when I do so.

Yes, just after you go through the tunnel (before the mech bosses in the Highway stage), where the hovertank usually stops for the Extend icon, is where the dreaded overhang appears. It makes it worse when the hovertank fires a very hard to dodge spread attack at you.

I think there was another one in a different stage someplace...the "airport" level, was it?

[Icarus]

(to the contrary, I consider Garegga something of a shmupping essential, one ought to at least try it out, even if it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea)

Quick! Someone call the police! Someone's kidnapped BulletMagnet and replaced him with a Garegga fanboy!

I think there was another one in a different stage someplace...the "airport" level, was it?

The one in the Airport stage isn't as bad as both overhangs are part of a glass wall, and don't last long enough (or are big enough) to be a hazard. Not to mention the lack of enemies during their appearances.

[BulletMagnet]

Quick! Someone call the police! Someone's kidnapped BulletMagnet and replaced him with a Garegga fanboy!

"You're next! YOOUUU'RRRRE NEEEEEEXXT!"

The one in the Airport stage isn't as bad as both overhangs are part of a glass wall, and don't last long enough (or are big enough) to be a hazard. Not to mention the lack of enemies during their appearances.

I dunno, I recall there being a couple of enemy-spawning points nearby...and having to rush through to avoid being sneak-killed.

[Neon]

It seems like you're more frustrated than anything, BM. And bitter from rank flamewars past. Sour grapes as Pa might say.

I'm tired of feeling like an outcast / retard (or an outcast retard) for liking Garegga.

Also, how the hell can Garegga be overrated? It isn't even in the top 25 anymore.

I'm used to the outcast feeling (nerd in school - didn't wear abercrombie and fitch, wasn't racist) but it did make it this year. Though most consider the top 25 to mean 'best 25' and it's behind a fair amount o crappy ones...ah well.

[BulletMagnet]

It seems like you're more frustrated than anything, BM. And bitter from rank flamewars past. Sour grapes as Pa might say.

Frustrated, slightly. Bitter, nah. This is just video games, after all. I just have to roll my eyes whenever I (inevitably and repeatedly) see stuff like...

I'm tired of feeling like an outcast / retard (or an outcast retard) for liking Garegga.

No matter how often I see it, I'm never going to be able to accept the "Viewing Garegga as Imperfect = Hating It" mantra that some around here simply will not stop repeating...honestly, how many people around here go around saying "Garegga sucks, I hate it"? VERY few (as I've challenged before, if all this rabid Garegga hatred is festering out there, find me some links). Fewer, I'd wager, than those who openly voice their hatred of almost any other game (or company, etc.) around here...about the most you ever hear is the occasional "Garegga isn't perfect because of...," and all of a sudden people start acting as if a new Inquisition is starting here on the forums. It's a blatant double standard, and whenever I see it, I'm going to call it, whether people stop doing it or not. Do I consider this practice a cardinal sin? Of course not. Do I consider it dogmatic and unfair? Yes. Worth fighting/flaming over? No. Worth putting out in the open? Darn straight, and long overdue.

Also, how the hell can Garegga be overrated? It isn't even in the top 25 anymore.

Sixth place, actually. Check again.

[howmuchkeefe]

I've sampled Ibara and Garegga, but I haven't really played them. If the mandatory death thing isn't overstated, I think I'll have major problems with the games.

The concept of dying on purpose offends my fundamental video game sensibilities; I was ashamed to have used the tactic to 1cc Contra III's hard mode (stage five boss, for the bombs). ASHAMED.

As for unavoidable attacks, I associate them with poor game design. It's a very strong association.

[Icarus]

...honestly, how many people around here go around saying "Garegga sucks, I hate it"? VERY few (as I've challenged before, if all this rabid Garegga hatred is festering out there, find me some links). Fewer, I'd wager, than those who openly voice their hatred of almost any other game (or company, etc.) around here...

Let me ask you a simple question. How often do you see people posting complaints about other games? Then ask yourself another question: how many times have I seen a "Garegga is x because of x" thread?

As far as I'm concerned, I no longer care if someone hates Garegga, Ibara, Bakraid etc etc because of some cosmetic reason or some fundemental gameplay system that goes "against their playing sensibilities". As far as I'm concerned, Garegga is a masterpiece of graphic and gameplay design, and if you are content with letting yourself skip over the game just because it goes against what you believe to be "standard game design" then you're doing yourself a huge disservice.

To be honest, I was expecting Ibara to be the hot topic of the latest batch of rank/invisibullets/non-standard-gameplay threads. Whatever.

Meh, whatever indeed. Original Poster, if you dislike Ibara for the bullets, don't play Garegga. Simple as. If you dislike Ibara for the rank system, don't even contemplate going near a Raizing game.

[howmuchkeefe]

R-Type is not Gradius is not DDP is not Garegga.

I will simply say that I do not enjoy the Garegga style nearly as much as I do the R-Type, Gradius and DDP styles. Just as a reviewer who does not like shmups can't be expected to distinguish a good shmup from a poor shmup, I can't be expected to tell a good Garegga style game from a poor one.

[BulletMagnet]

Let me ask you a simple question. How often do you see people posting complaints about other games? Then ask yourself another question: how many times have I seen a "Garegga is x because of x" thread?

All I know is, every time a new Cave game/port is announced, someone has to pop in and say "Figures, no one made this big of a fuss over non-Cave game xyz...the mindless fanboys are out in full force, as usual, addicted to their ugly neon bullets, boring recycled chaining systems, cheap fanservice, same old this that and the other thing..." EVERY time. Granted, Cave games are not the only ones subject to this (nor are they entirely undeserving of some of the criticism they get), but they're arguably the most frequent targets: and whenever the aforementioned happens, is there the least bit of protest from anyone, in most cases? 99 percent of the time there's little or nothing said in response: such criticism is just The Way It Is, the Natural Order of Things. Compare this to the response any time anybody says anything about Garegga, in particular.

As for your "how many times have I seen a Garegga thread" inquiry, aside from the game's innate controversial nature (which few others, if any, can match), I'd say that the frequency of such topics (half-topics, I think, is a more accurate term) is at least partially due to the fact that as soon as such a discussion pops up its creator is immediately labeled a "hater," "n00b," "moron," etc., and the thread degenerates into flaming and never actually gets any real discussion done. Thus, there's always this "forbidden fruit" aura of sorts around discussing Garegga: it's sitting there, with tons of potential discussion to dig into (especially considering how "deep" many like to label the game), but it's simply not allowed! It happens over and over and over again, and there's never a previous thread we can link to to continue/amend the discussion, simply because discussion is rarely, if ever, really allowed to happen. And people become indignant too, saying "everything that can be said about Garegga's already been said." I beg to differ.

It's mind-boggling how often I see this happen...the weird thing is, when pressed, most self-proclaimed "hardcore" Garegga fans (at least those I've talked to) will say "Yeah, you've got at least some valid points" when you attempt to discuss why the game isn't 100 percent perfect (once again, not "awful," just "imperfect," like anything else), but as soon as the next thread comes up, the old "Ignorant Bitter Fanboy Hater" cycle starts all over again. As the saying goes, "Darlings, it simply isn't done!"

As far as I'm concerned, I no longer care if someone hates Garegga, Ibara, Bakraid etc etc because of some cosmetic reason or some fundemental gameplay system that goes "against their playing sensibilities". As far as I'm concerned, Garegga is a masterpiece of graphic and gameplay design, and if you are content with letting yourself skip over the game just because it goes against what you believe to be "standard game design" then you're doing yourself a huge disservice.

Well, you already know that's not my platform, so to speak. Heck, what I've said the past few posts isn't really even about the game itself, but rather how it's treated by some around here, which is a whole new ball of wax in itself (though I'm sure some will fail to distinguish between the two, as has been done ad nauseam between "imperfect" and "awful").

To be honest, I was expecting Ibara to be the hot topic of the latest batch of rank/invisibullets/non-standard-gameplay threads. Whatever.

Well, on the invisi-bullets issue, despite not being perfect in that regard Ibara is a BIG improvement over Garegga in that area. As for everything else, methinks my old arguments with Rando have scared off just about anyone else who'd ever possibly try to bring it up. Not to mention, of course, that hopefully the new truckload of info on the Garegga ST will hopefully put at least some of the previous speculation and confusion to rest.

[Rastan78]

People talk about the rank and suiciding in Garegga waaay too much. Just about every shmup has a rank system. There are also a ton of them that have tactical suicides used for rank control or scoring purposes. Accepting the rules/limitations and learning to work with them just comes with the territory for any shmup.

Psikyo games come to mind as games where expert players constantly run into enemy sprites on purpose to decrease rank. Not exactly a suicide since you only take a hit that makes you power down, but the sheer amount of times players will intentionally do this in almost all of Psikyo's games for rank control should have gotten them black listed by now. Not to mention Ray Force, Raiden Fighters . . .

[Arznei]

You aren't alone in disliking Ibara. The game sucks. You basically just roakm around bombing certain areas to exploit the rank system, dying to lower it, and repeating. Arrange mode is the culprit of this.

Ibara is anime hentai bukkake bullshit. I'll wait for a REAL Garegga sequel.

[Rastan78]

You aren't alone in disliking Ibara. The game sucks. You basically just roakm around bombing certain areas to exploit the rank system, dying to lower it, and repeating.

Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

[roker]

the fact that people talk this much about Garegga shows it's true legacy and influence on the genre and tastes of shmup fans

I mean, we don't have threads and threads about HotDog Storm, Aero Fighters, Air Gallet, Darius, game paradise, viper phase 1 (god I love this game), etc. etc. etc.

that really does mean something

[Rastan78]

Good point, roker. Garegga kind of helped to open up the floodgates with manic shmups. IKD even talked about literally counting the bullets in Garegga screens to make sure that his next game (DDP) would have even more of them. Who knows what direction Cave would have gone in without Garegga to up the ante?

[Arznei]

You aren't alone in disliking Ibara. The game sucks. You basically just roakm around bombing certain areas to exploit the rank system, dying to lower it, and repeating.

Sounds like you've got it all figured out.

Yep. Thanks. I have.

[Twiddle]

The game sucks. You basically just roakm around bombing certain areas to exploit the rank system, dying to lower it, and repeating. Arrange mode is the culprit of this.

I'll wait for a REAL Garegga sequel.

uh i don't see how

[Arznei]

The theme and feel of Garegga is totally different from Ibara. It maintains a few aspects of the game's true intention, but it lacks. Why are there 5 anime girls there and why do you have to kill them? At least with ships, you don't need to question them.

What I am getting at is the feel of the game.

[Twiddle]

spoilers: you kill none of them in ibara, you arrest them!

I don't like the pandering myself though, but if it keeps development of the game styles I like afloat...