I've been to hell and back, and other Makaimura Miscellanies

[Bassa-Bassa]

I was casually playing some Makaimura and Dai this morning and found that most of my deaths happened during readjustment to nuances such as "having to stand up from crouch-firing to crouch-fire the other way", which suddenly feels like a huge and onerous commitment, like a King's Field IV turnabout.

That's because those games are designed for 4-way sticks. You still stand-up when you change direction when crouched, but the stick moves without fake positions from one to the other and it kind of feels natural. My guess, anyway, maybe you're already playing like this.

[Klatrymadon]

Ah, good shout — I have a dedicated 4-way stick but hadn't even thought about the issue with extra inputs here! I've adapted to things now but I'll definitely give this a try.

Edit: god, yeah, it's so much more fluid now. Cheers!

[Sumez]

Oh yeah, GNG1 is notoriously horrible with an 8-way stick, you'll get stuck on every single ladder. I've run into a PCB in way too many standard Jamma cabs with 8-ways on them, so I've almost gotten used to it - but it's not good.

Daimakaimura really needs four-way also. The MegaDrive version even has a setting in the options which similates the 4-way mechanics on the D-pad (which otherwise obviously allows diagonals). Not sure why you'd ever want it set otherwise.

[Klatrymadon]

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time with the MD version, which makes it more puzzling that I didn't immediately clock what was going on! Haven't had any issues with ladders so far but it's nice to have that crossed off too.

The first two shadow stages in GNGR are kicking my arse. The execution grounds are a lot easier than the graveyard, but I've still hit a roadblock in the hell hole, which seems simple enough but has a lot of tight, tricky timings and some of the nastiest spawns so far (it's the one with the two windmills and the woody pigs). I'm still marvelling at how this game manages to keep upping the pressure and yet somehow still appearing perversely reasonable. It's tightening the screws all the time but I've never once felt like calling it a day.

[Sumez]

Some of the shadow stages clocked up insane retry counts for me first time through! Especially the graveyard one. It's insane how much that game can punish you and you'll still come back for more! Truly a masterclass in enjoyable replayability.
I don't think they are all strictly harder than the normal stages though, some are actually easier. It's more like a set of remixes which of course does change a lot of things quite a bit. Shadow-4 is straight up hilarious once you realise what it's doing!

Definitely B-sides though. They aren't as strong as the first set of stages, but I wouldn't want to be without them!

[Austin]

I need to spend more time with Resurrection. I recall my biggest issue with it being that you can't attack as fast as you want. Like, there's a hard limit as to how rapidly you can fling projectiles around, regardless the distance from enemies. Unlike, say, Ghouls 'n Ghosts where if you're right next to enemy with the dagger in particular, you can basically fire as quickly as you can mash. It's just an adjustment thing I guess, but I much prefer having that extra bit of fire control you get in the old arcade games (or Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts), as it helps in tight spaces, when you're getting cornered, or when a Red Arremer divebombs you.

And on that note, I am reminding myself I need to get back to learning Goku Makaimura Kai for the PSP. Ultimate itself never clicked with me, mainly because of the mandatory exploration aspect, but Kai is more the typical "two loops then done" kind of experience and seems like it will be easier to learn. I at least always liked the visuals and level design, despite being brutal as hell.

[Klatrymadon]

So uh, if you open the black chest in a hell hole and then die to an obstacle on the way out, does it still count as cleared?

Edit: actually, I've just remembered Pablo would sometimes exit the stage from hell holes during his speed runs to save time, so it's probably fine, right? The map is usually very clear about what you've done and missed, but doesn't acknowledge these at all (maybe until a later playthrough)...

[Sumez]

IIRC once you've beaten the shadow stages you'll see a count for how many hell holes you got. Why are you going for them already?

[AGermanArtist]

Can you imagine the travesty Capcom could do to this series, in this day and age?

Didn't age well.

[Klatrymadon]

IIRC once you've beaten the shadow stages you'll see a count for how many hell holes you got. Why are you going for them already?

Heh, mostly just because I want to 'complete' the game, and can't see myself having the time for 3rd and 4th playthroughs any time soon. It's so compelling that I might end up making the time, though!

[Sumez]

Oh man, you're gonna miss out on the best challenge in the game then

[Klatrymadon]

I'm away from home at the moment and don't have access to GNGR, so I've been revisiting Kai on the PSP. It's great fun, and almost feels relaxing next to the newer game — it's still tough as nails, but most checkpoints are taking me 3-5 attempts to clear rather than 20-40. I feel less motivated to go for the true ending here than in GNGR, though — it's still very long for a game of its type, and finding dozens of gold rings hasn't grabbed me as much as uncovering hell holes did. Maybe I'll get more into that as I find them in more interesting locations. For a revision clearly aimed at restoring an arcade structure to a slightly bloated and unwieldy game, though, it strikes me that it needs an arcade mode itself.

[BrianC]

Oh yeah, GNG1 is notoriously horrible with an 8-way stick, you'll get stuck on every single ladder. I've run into a PCB in way too many standard Jamma cabs with 8-ways on them, so I've almost gotten used to it - but it's not good.

Daimakaimura really needs four-way also. The MegaDrive version even has a setting in the options which similates the 4-way mechanics on the D-pad (which otherwise obviously allows diagonals). Not sure why you'd ever want it set otherwise.

Learned that the hard way when I tried to play Daimakaimura in Capcom Generations PS1 with the Ascii stick.

[velo]

Shadow-4 is straight up hilarious once you realise what it's doing!

You really need a healthy sense of humor to appreciate GGR. If that's the part I'm thinking of, I still don't really understand how to deal with it cleanly, and it's not the only such segment.

[1000Eyes]

Huh, there seems to be a difficulty discrepancy when playing Daimakaimura on mame? I tried playing the Capcom arcade stadium version (which defaults difficulty to medium), and I notice some enemy patterns are more difficult. You can see this very clearly with the turtles on stage 2, where they are much more aggressive and have strange triple bounce spawns on CAS. On mame, the default difficulty DIP is 2, and this doesn't happen. When I bump it up to 4 (which is labeled normal, so maybe that's the real default?), it becomes roughly as difficult as the CAS version. Extend settings are different too. I wonder if anyone more knowledgeable can help me understand this?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Mame is wrong in many instances, I'm afraid. Daimakaimura's factory difficulty setting is at 4, and bonus life, at 30k/60k/every 70k (I think that's correct in Mame?).

[Sumez]

Those settings are controlled by dip switches. There is no "factory settings". Only what the operator manual suggests as default.
There is really no "wrong" or "correct", only what the community agrees on.

But I'd definitely not use MAME as a fact source either.

As far as I can tell, this Japanese manual does not indicate a suggested default for difficulty (but Level 4 is all dips OFF, whic is also true for other suggested default values) https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-v ... _00004.pdf
Here is a copy of the US manual however, which suggests Level 2 as the default, so it makes sense for MAME to assume this should be it: https://files.stardustarcade.com/PDF_Ar ... Ghosts.pdf

Likely a change invented specifically for the US audience. The US roms also have a few other changes which make the game slightly easier. But really you should just set it to what you want Rank difficulty doesn't really have much of an influence on this particular game anyway. The second loop is barely harder than the first.

[Sweatlord_STG]

Those settings are controlled by dip switches. There is no "factory settings". Only what the operator manual suggests as default.
There is really no "wrong" or "correct", only what the community agrees on.

But I'd definitely not use MAME as a fact source either.

As far as I can tell, this Japanese manual does not indicate a suggested default for difficulty (but Level 4 is all dips OFF, whic is also true for other suggested default values) https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-v ... _00004.pdf
Here is a copy of the US manual however, which suggests Level 2 as the default, so it makes sense for MAME to assume this should be it: https://files.stardustarcade.com/PDF_Ar ... Ghosts.pdf

Likely a change invented specifically for the US audience. The US roms also have a few other changes which make the game slightly easier.

Yeah, this is actually an interesting topic, I think. The default settings (and the ones for online leaderboards) of the releases by ACA seem to be more in line (compared to Mame) with the suggested settings, or the ones most commonly found when playing the game at public locations.
Some belt scrolling action games also give you three lives (two in stock plus one in use) by default on Mame, when it should be two or only one, depending on the game.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Those settings are controlled by dip switches. There is no "factory settings". Only what the operator manual suggests as default.
There is really no "wrong" or "correct", only what the community agrees on.

But I'd definitely not use MAME as a fact source either.

As far as I can tell, this Japanese manual does not indicate a suggested default for difficulty (but Level 4 is all dips OFF, whic is also true for other suggested default values) https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-v ... _00004.pdf

Not "suggested", there's literally an asterisk to note that bolded settings are factory settings ("shipment condition") there. Besides, level 4 is called there "normal". And there's the fact that most PCB makers usually treat dips OFF as default.

So yeah, Mame's totally wrong and not correct by assuming Daimakaimura's factory setting for difficulty is at 2 (and now we know why, thks). And default settings are a key factor when any "community" discusses the matter. This community indeed shows it well.

[Sumez]

Not "suggested", there's literally an asterisk to note that bolded settings are factory settings ("shipping condition") there. Besides, level 4 is called there "normal". And there's the fact that most PCB makers usually treat dips OFF as default.

So yeah, Mame's totally wrong and not correct by assuming Daimakaimura's factory setting for difficulty is at 2 (and now we know why, thks). And default settings are a key factor when any "community" discusses the matter. This community indeed shows it well.

"Wrong" and "Correct" is completely subjective here, for all the reasons I already outlined, and which you should know as well.
When you came across a GnG/Dai in the wild in any arcade since its release, the difficulty setting could be anything, depending on what the operator wanted - and that is true for any region, including Japan.

It makes total sense to argue that Level 4 is the "default", because it's literally called "normal", and also has all dip switches off. I mean, I agree with this much - I'd always play the game on level 4 unless I'm specifically trying to challenge myself more (not that it'd matter much for this particular game).

But there is still nothing absolute or factual about this. It's just one setting versus another. Since MAME defaults to 2, it's safe to assume that at this point probably more people played the game on Level 2 than Level 4. It really depends on what your own context is. Fortunately, Daimakaimura isn't a game where it's every relevant to compare your scores to anyone else, so what level other people play on doesn't really matter. Start on whatever level you prefer, or just start on 8. And then adjust if/when you feel like it.

[Bassa-Bassa]

"Wrong" and "Correct" is completely subjective here, for all the reasons I already outlined, and which you should know as well.
When you came across a GnG/Dai in the wild in any arcade since its release, the difficulty setting could be anything, depending on what the operator wanted - and that is true for any region, including Japan.

Aaand that's the one aspect which always sucked no matter what about arcade games (that one, and the hardware's condition, and particularly the control panel, to name it all).

But that's besides the point. You may be missing that Mame is about documenting, as they put it. And indeed one aspect is documenting factory settings. That's why they apparently care and have specified that Mame always defaults to factory settings when known. So subjectivity has nothing to do here - it's purely a technical aspect and Mame is just wrong when documenting this particular game (I haven't checked, but there's even the possibilty that they mention it in the driver's notes, though in 2025 it'd come off a bit inexcusable, if you ask me).

It makes total sense to argue that Level 4 is the "default", because it's literally called "normal", and also has all dip switches off. I mean, I agree with this much - I'd always play the game on level 4 unless I'm specifically trying to challenge myself more (not that it'd matter much for this particular game).

But there is still nothing absolute or factual about this. It's just one setting versus another.

You mean it's not the same as a console game, where default settings are soft-coded and should offer no discussion? Or PCBs with non-volatile memory?

Then, I disagree. Defaults (as we need a universal method) are what the maker ships its PCBs with, and an operator's opinion doesn't matter. Precisely in these cases, because they're not soft-coded due to using switches, they specifically state in every manual which are the factory settings. Doesn't seem like an aspect they don't care about, even if it's out of the player's control in the end.

Since MAME defaults to 2, it's safe to assume that at this point probably more people played the game on Level 2 than Level 4.

Which would be both, sad and countercultural, in the grand scheme of things. I'm of the opinion that it's not the user the one who should worry about finding out his ideal difficulty setting for every game as that's the work of the game designer, if only because you're forcing the user himself to somehow spoil the game, but I'm fully aware that it's not a common opinion here and I can understand that other approach, anyway.

[velo]

Yeah, this is actually an interesting topic, I think. The default settings (and the ones for online leaderboards) of the releases by ACA seem to be more in line (compared to Mame) with the suggested settings, or the ones most commonly found when playing the game at public locations.
Some belt scrolling action games also give you three lives (two in stock plus one in use) by default on Mame, when it should be two or only one, depending on the game.

In Capcom Arcade Stadium, most of the belt action games seem to be more generous with lives than MAME: they either give more extends or more lives by default.

[Sumez]

But that's besides the point. You may be missing that Mame is about documenting, as they put it. And indeed one aspect is documenting factory settings. That's why they apparently care and have specified that Mame always defaults to factory settings when known. So subjectivity has nothing to do here - it's purely a technical aspect and Mame is just wrong when documenting this particular game

Ok I just really want you to be with me on this one thing: It is not a "factory setting", it's a physical switch on the PCB which could ship in any setting NOT intended to be a default. Having "all switches off" is definitely a common standard in arcade games, but it is by no means universal. The defaults which are (often, but not always, and occasionally quite ambiguously) marked in manuals are merely recommended settings, and the best thing we have to go by as far as community standards go.

Aside from that, I've said my thing, and there's not much point to go on beating it

[1000Eyes]

Thanks for the response everyone. It's easy for latecomers like me to valorize Arcade design only because I'm standing on the shoulders of decades of communal experience, but the actual experience of Arcade goers seems as messy as anything

Fwiw, Im enjoying Dai more on the higher difficulty settings. The only real changes is that during the random spawn segments like 2-1 turtles, 2-2 fire bats, 3-1 elevator ride, etc. the rate is faster and the enemies more aggressive, but this clarifies the design a lot imo. On setting 2 the turtles bounce very lazily and predictably, and the elevator enemies are too few, but they become very fun reaction test when there are so many on 8. Even 1-1 doesn't have down time now, despite still being easy.

[Sweatlord_STG]

I beat Cho Makaimura 1CC 2-ALL on the recommended default factory settings the game was shipped in