Why shmups are such a niche genre

[Faith]

On the other hand, Shmup Junkie or HazyLevels are much more cheerful and less critical of many things.
I mean, if you want to convince new players to try shmups, don't come forward with extreme technicalities, but rather emphasize how intense and fun they can be as an experience.

Reading that reminded me to point out this YouTuber too!~

https://www.youtube.com/@ASkeleton

He will often say STG appeal for him is fun and excitement above everything else.

For him the difficulty is not an appeal, and so he will play on Novice all day, since his emphasis is the excitement STG's bring.

But I respect that very much, and his videos are super fun to watch, because even if he plays on easiest difficulty, I can see he is having a lot of fun. And that is important!~

[Steven]

I honestly stopped watching Youtube last year just because I hate Google so much and I do everything I can to not use anything made by Google. Too bad it's too embedded in modern first world culture for others to stop, I think, and of course Youtube is basically impossible to avoid now too. My company's email and stuff are all done using Google, unfortunately, so there's a limit to how much I can avoid it. I've been meaning to remove all of my replays from Youtube and put them someplace else, but I've been too lazy to figure it out.

[Faith]

I honestly stopped watching Youtube last year just because I hate Google so much and I do everything I can to not use anything made by Google. Too bad it's too embedded in modern first world culture for others to stop, I think, and of course Youtube is basically impossible to avoid now too. My company's email and stuff are all done using Google, unfortunately, so there's a limit to how much I can avoid it. I've been meaning to remove all of my replays from Youtube and put them someplace else, but I've been too lazy to figure it out.

Oh... re: your videos... if you do that, please share where.

I also do not use Google @_@"... one previous company I did some work with their big focus was digital marketing, and... once you see that kind of work, and the things that go on behind and what companies will do to psycho more and more people to buy more and more useless crap... you will really hate ad companies a lot. Also: these companies all think very low of the average consumer :p like they think all of us are all very stupid. Ok, maybe they do have a bit of a point, lol. But it is quite insulting anyway to see just how low they view the average spender.

Anyway, because of that, I never did upload replays anywhere. Oops. And never did find a place I could do it that is not YouTube.

[Lemnear]

I find the Reddit amusing. The posts often start with "What does Mark think about..."

MARK TELL ME WAHT TO THINK

It's true, sometimes I get the impression that many people are just waiting for his next video about some popular game (like Expedition 33) and are just screaming, "Mark, tell me what to think about it!!!!"

So yeah, I basically don't like the way he subtly manipulates other people's opinions.

On the other hand, Shmup Junkie or HazyLevels are much more cheerful and less critical of many things.
I mean, if you want to convince new players to try shmups, don't come forward with extreme technicalities, but rather emphasize how intense and fun they can be as an experience.

Reading that reminded me to point out this YouTuber too!~

https://www.youtube.com/@ASkeleton

He will often say STG appeal for him is fun and excitement above everything else.

For him the difficulty is not an appeal, and so he will play on Novice all day, since his emphasis is the excitement STG's bring.

But I respect that very much, and his videos are super fun to watch, because even if he plays on easiest difficulty, I can see he is having a lot of fun. And that is important!~

Ty! I have to check him out, at least he seems to be enjoying what he's doing instead of getting ulcers over everything


Anyway, back to the topic. Thinking about it, I think infinite credits should be abolished in shmups. Having unlimited credits (in ports, of course, because in arcades you pay for it) makes the game pointless, makes learning patterns pointless, makes dodging bullets pointless because essentially, you can't lose; just put in another credit and you'll get to the end, standing still in the middle and dying 100 times.

I mean, if you applied this to another type of game (like an FPS or an RPG), it would be a sort of God Mode where you never really lose and keep going like a train, even if you die repeatedly, and restart immediately from the game over point.

Furthermore, infinite credits assume that the player must self-impose a credit limit, which is a bit naive, and many might not do so. And if you don't care about the score, there's even less reason to learn the game and impose some kind of limitation on yourself. I've heard so many comments from people who dismiss shmups as "easy," and they say so because that's how they play them.

I think it's much better to give a limited number of Credits, perhaps even generous ones or ones that vary with the difficulty chosen. At least there's some minimal obligation to learn something about the game and then, if you really want, try a 1CC run.

Some might say that Checkpoints could solve the problem, forcing you to solve a certain point by learning it, like in Souls-like games, where no one complains about the constant repetition of a section.

What would happen if, instead of earning extenders with points, you earned power-ups in the game? Would that be an incentive to get a better score?

And to get back to Mark, I remember a video where he said that bullets in bulletshells have replaced walls and physical obstacles in games, but... that's incorrect and misleading. You can't replicate an R-Type by simply replacing walls with bullet clusters, the movements that bullets make are not the same as those of moving platforms (perhaps moving back and forth) and other obstacles of that nature.

[AGermanArtist]

Not necessarily stupid - irrational and a problem because of this irrationality.

[LordHypnos]

I think limited credits and continuing bringing you back to the beginning of a stage would probably be the best way to do it. This way, the player is forced to learn something to "beat" the game, even if they don't understand the concept of 1cc.

I don't know if anything can really do it, though. People tend to complain about games being too hard if they can't credit feed to the end, and too easy if they can. I know that some games will let you unlock additional continues with play time, which might help a little bit.

The other thing would be getting rid of the idea of an arcade gauntlet entirely (or have it be an optional mode), and just give people a bunch of bite sized, standalone challenges that can be repeated until beaten. I've seen platformers that do this pretty successfully. People seem to be able to understand the idea of a single stage, with challenging gameplay, that they need to repeat until they win and unlock the next stage. A full length 1cc requires a lot more effort and planning to get through.

That being said, while e.g. Jamestown was relatively popular for a shmup, and anecdotally Sturmwind was probably the most popular post-mortem commercial indie Dreamcast shmup, it doesn't seem like shmups in this format have gotten a significant amount of traction compared to platformers. I guess I kind of understand why this is the case, as platformers were wildly popular in the 90s, but to me shmups are way easier to pick up and play. Gravity makes everything so much harder. I could never really get into platformers other than like... Kirby (which I'm guessing is absurdly easy) back in the day.

That's all assuming that making shmups less niche is desirable at all. I don't personally think that I really need more games, and it seems like there's a decent stream of them coming out even with being a niche genre. I guess it would be nice to have enough genre recognition that I could convince a friend to do a 2p run of Giga Wing without having to give them a whole lecture to explain what the hell I'm proposing.

(To be clear, I have never actually tried to do that)

[Light1000]

That being said, while e.g. Jamestown was relatively popular for a shmup, and anecdotally Sturmwind was probably the most popular post-mortem commercial indie Dreamcast shmup, it doesn't seem like shmups in this format have gotten a significant amount of traction compared to platformers. I guess I kind of understand why this is the case, as platformers were wildly popular in the 90s, but to me shmups are way easier to pick up and play. Gravity makes everything so much harder. I could never really get into platformers other than like... Kirby (which I'm guessing is absurdly easy) back in the day.

There are a few reasons for this (platformers being more "accepted" than shmups)
1. the nature of free movement in shmups can provoke people to see them as "simple" whereas gravity is seen as "deep"... think about how many times you've heard someone say "a shmup is just dodging bullets". While shmups are easier to pick up and play, actually understanding the dynamics at hand (pointblanking, "dodge without dodging", streaming, cutbacks, etc.) is extremely difficult for a newcomer, Gunvein and Angel At Dusk have tutorials for this which is a worthwhile idea for more future releases. Anyone can understand how to play Mario.
2. platformers are "grandfathered" in by popular franchises such as Super Mario Bros, Sonic, etc. whereas the average person has never played a shmup in their entire life, perhaps except the shitty shmup cameo sections in Cuphead or the "dodge 'em up" minigames in Undertale (along with Touhou, further pushing the view that shmups are "all about dodging")
This also explains why run 'n guns are more popular and appealing to normal people than shmups (they get to "coast off" of the public's acceptance of platformers)
3. shmups autoscroll, which the public is primed to view negatively due to their only exposure to autoscrollers being shitty ones in Super Mario Bros 3 / World

[LordHypnos]

There are a few reasons for this (platformers being more "accepted" than shmups)
1. the nature of free movement in shmups can provoke people to see them as "simple" whereas gravity is seen as "deep"... think about how many times you've heard someone say "a shmup is just dodging bullets". While shmups are easier to pick up and play, actually understanding the dynamics at hand (pointblanking, "dodge without dodging", streaming, cutbacks, etc.) is extremely difficult for a newcomer, Gunvein and Angel At Dusk have tutorials for this which is a worthwhile idea for more future releases. Anyone can understand how to play Mario.
2. platformers are "grandfathered" in by popular franchises such as Super Mario Bros, Sonic, etc. whereas the average person has never played a shmup in their entire life, perhaps except the shitty shmup cameo sections in Cuphead or the "dodge 'em up" minigames in Undertale (further pushing the view that shmups are "all about dodging")
This also explains why run 'n guns are more popular and appealing to normal people than shmups (they get to "coast off" of the public's acceptance of platformers)
3. shmups autoscroll, which the public is primed to view negatively due to their only exposure to autoscrollers being shitty ones in Super Mario Bros 3 / World

Those are all very good points, and most definitely line up with my experiences! It's really quite sad, as even back in the mid-to-late-90s, shmups did not have enough mainstream traction for me to run across them at all, other than Galaga (which I was very into), and I think I would have gotten into the genre much earlier if they had been a little more present in the zeitgeist. Though I guess in some ways it's probably better that I spent less time playing video games as a child, lol.

Not related to the platformers comment, but another thing to look at as something to emulate could be puzzle games. I don't know if there are any that are wildly popular right at the moment, but they definitely have much more mainstream traction than shmups do, and are similar in that they tend to be pick-up-and-play type games. I also remember when Bejeweled was wildly popular in the early days of kids having cellphones, and Tetris probably has some of the highest levels of recognition out there.

I haven't really thought as much about what shmups could do to be more like Tetris and Bejeweled, though. Perhaps some of it is that there isn't as obvious of an end point to those games (not unlike golden age arcade games). Maybe some of it is the same randomness that makes roguelites popular, IDK. Food for thought!

[Steven]

I'll tell everyone a secret. It's A SECRET, which means you can't tell anyone.

Spoiler

It doesn't matter at all if STGs are niche or not.

I honestly stopped watching Youtube last year just because I hate Google so much and I do everything I can to not use anything made by Google. Too bad it's too embedded in modern first world culture for others to stop, I think, and of course Youtube is basically impossible to avoid now too. My company's email and stuff are all done using Google, unfortunately, so there's a limit to how much I can avoid it. I've been meaning to remove all of my replays from Youtube and put them someplace else, but I've been too lazy to figure it out.

Oh... re: your videos... if you do that, please share where.

I also do not use Google @_@"... one previous company I did some work with their big focus was digital marketing, and... once you see that kind of work, and the things that go on behind and what companies will do to psycho more and more people to buy more and more useless crap... you will really hate ad companies a lot. Also: these companies all think very low of the average consumer :p like they think all of us are all very stupid. Ok, maybe they do have a bit of a point, lol. But it is quite insulting anyway to see just how low they view the average spender.

Anyway, because of that, I never did upload replays anywhere. Oops. And never did find a place I could do it that is not YouTube.

I was going to use NicoNico, but then the whole hacking thing happened. Now I have yet to decide what to do. It's not really super ultra platinum important, though, as none of my replays are of any value except for maybe a few Hishouzame ones, which might be helpful for beginning players, as I showed off pretty much every trick in the game, but sadly almost nobody cares about that game anyway because it's (fortunately) not bullet hell.

So yeah, I basically don't like the way he subtly manipulates other people's opinions.

Everyone does this to everyone else regarding all topics. Everyone that I know that loves BUMP OF CHICKEN does so because of me. It doesn't take much. A friend got me my current job. I gave him a ticket to see BUMP because I had an extra. It was day 1 of a tour for a new album that released only a few days prior that he'd never heard of made by a band he'd never heard of and whose music he'd never heard. Immediately after it was over he said it was the most incredible thing he'd ever seen and now he loves BUMP almost as much as I do. This wasn't my intention, but it happened anyway and I'm glad it did.

Anyway, simply by mentioning a thing, we influence each other, maybe not meaning to do so, but it happens. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, although I suppose it could be. This is, however, one of the other reasons I stay away from Youtube; I prefer to judge things myself.

Some might say that Checkpoints could solve the problem, forcing you to solve a certain point by learning it, like in Souls-like games, where no one complains about the constant repetition of a section.

Uemura-san's design philosophy, and the essence of Toaplan and that which makes Toaplan the best developer in the genre. I think one of the reasons that most people fear/hate checkpoints is because they don't play old Toaplan, just things with poorly designed checkpoint recovery, and then they say that checkpoints are wrong/bad/etc., which obviously is not true if checkpoints are made properly, and I greatly prefer this to instant respawn, although there are games that absolutely would not work with checkpoints, like Bakraid.

Anyway, back to the topic. Thinking about it, I think infinite credits should be abolished in shmups. Having unlimited credits (in ports, of course, because in arcades you pay for it) makes the game pointless, makes learning patterns pointless, makes dodging bullets pointless because essentially, you can't lose; just put in another credit and you'll get to the end, standing still in the middle and dying 100 times.

I mean, if you applied this to another type of game (like an FPS or an RPG), it would be a sort of God Mode where you never really lose and keep going like a train, even if you die repeatedly, and restart immediately from the game over point.

Furthermore, infinite credits assume that the player must self-impose a credit limit, which is a bit naive, and many might not do so. And if you don't care about the score, there's even less reason to learn the game and impose some kind of limitation on yourself. I've heard so many comments from people who dismiss shmups as "easy," and they say so because that's how they play them.

I think it's much better to give a limited number of Credits, perhaps even generous ones or ones that vary with the difficulty chosen. At least there's some minimal obligation to learn something about the game and then, if you really want, try a 1CC run.

There are games that have this. When I played Ketsui Deathtiny recently, I found that I had limited credits. Starting a game and game overing gave me more until I eventually unlocked free play. R-Type Final 2/3 Evolved has something similar, although I don't remember how it works there.

This is actually how I play games anyway; all of my PCBs, ShotTriggers games, and ACA games have continues disabled except for Garegga, and the only reason I didn't disable it for Garegga is because I don't know if Kamui's stage 2 game-over-but-not-really trick works with continues disabled. I don't think it makes me a better player, but it certainly is an inefficient method of practicing, so if anything it probably makes me worse because I almost never use training tools or save states or other players' replays, which is why I get like one new clear every year and a half or so.

[Lemnear]

Spoiler

I'll tell everyone a secret. It's A SECRET, which means you can't tell anyone.

Spoiler

It doesn't matter at all if STGs are niche or not.

I honestly stopped watching Youtube last year just because I hate Google so much and I do everything I can to not use anything made by Google. Too bad it's too embedded in modern first world culture for others to stop, I think, and of course Youtube is basically impossible to avoid now too. My company's email and stuff are all done using Google, unfortunately, so there's a limit to how much I can avoid it. I've been meaning to remove all of my replays from Youtube and put them someplace else, but I've been too lazy to figure it out.

Oh... re: your videos... if you do that, please share where.

I also do not use Google @_@"... one previous company I did some work with their big focus was digital marketing, and... once you see that kind of work, and the things that go on behind and what companies will do to psycho more and more people to buy more and more useless crap... you will really hate ad companies a lot. Also: these companies all think very low of the average consumer :p like they think all of us are all very stupid. Ok, maybe they do have a bit of a point, lol. But it is quite insulting anyway to see just how low they view the average spender.

Anyway, because of that, I never did upload replays anywhere. Oops. And never did find a place I could do it that is not YouTube.

I was going to use NicoNico, but then the whole hacking thing happened. Now I have yet to decide what to do. It's not really super ultra platinum important, though, as none of my replays are of any value except for maybe a few Hishouzame ones, which might be helpful for beginning players, as I showed off pretty much every trick in the game, but sadly almost nobody cares about that game anyway because it's (fortunately) not bullet hell.

So yeah, I basically don't like the way he subtly manipulates other people's opinions.

Everyone does this to everyone else regarding all topics. Everyone that I know that loves BUMP OF CHICKEN does so because of me. It doesn't take much. A friend got me my current job. I gave him a ticket to see BUMP because I had an extra. It was day 1 of a tour for a new album that released only a few days prior that he'd never heard of made by a band he'd never heard of and whose music he'd never heard. Immediately after it was over he said it was the most incredible thing he'd ever seen and now he loves BUMP almost as much as I do. This wasn't my intention, but it happened anyway and I'm glad it did.

Anyway, simply by mentioning a thing, we influence each other, maybe not meaning to do so, but it happens. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, although I suppose it could be. This is, however, one of the other reasons I stay away from Youtube; I prefer to judge things myself.

Some might say that Checkpoints could solve the problem, forcing you to solve a certain point by learning it, like in Souls-like games, where no one complains about the constant repetition of a section.

Uemura-san's design philosophy, and the essence of Toaplan and that which makes Toaplan the best developer in the genre. I think one of the reasons that most people fear/hate checkpoints is because they don't play old Toaplan, just things with poorly designed checkpoint recovery, and then they say that checkpoints are wrong/bad/etc., which obviously is not true if checkpoints are made properly, and I greatly prefer this to instant respawn, although there are games that absolutely would not work with checkpoints, like Bakraid.

Anyway, back to the topic. Thinking about it, I think infinite credits should be abolished in shmups. Having unlimited credits (in ports, of course, because in arcades you pay for it) makes the game pointless, makes learning patterns pointless, makes dodging bullets pointless because essentially, you can't lose; just put in another credit and you'll get to the end, standing still in the middle and dying 100 times.

I mean, if you applied this to another type of game (like an FPS or an RPG), it would be a sort of God Mode where you never really lose and keep going like a train, even if you die repeatedly, and restart immediately from the game over point.

Furthermore, infinite credits assume that the player must self-impose a credit limit, which is a bit naive, and many might not do so. And if you don't care about the score, there's even less reason to learn the game and impose some kind of limitation on yourself. I've heard so many comments from people who dismiss shmups as "easy," and they say so because that's how they play them.

I think it's much better to give a limited number of Credits, perhaps even generous ones or ones that vary with the difficulty chosen. At least there's some minimal obligation to learn something about the game and then, if you really want, try a 1CC run.

There are games that have this. When I played Ketsui Deathtiny recently, I found that I had limited credits. Starting a game and game overing gave me more until I eventually unlocked free play. R-Type Final 2/3 Evolved has something similar, although I don't remember how it works there.

This is actually how I play games anyway; all of my PCBs, ShotTriggers games, and ACA games have continues disabled except for Garegga, and the only reason I didn't disable it for Garegga is because I don't know if Kamui's stage 2 game-over-but-not-really trick works with continues disabled. I don't think it makes me a better player, but it certainly is an inefficient method of practicing, so if anything it probably makes me worse because I almost never use training tools or save states or other players' replays, which is why I get like one new clear every year and a half or so.

Ketsui Deathtiny? Really? I never noticed, hahaha, or maybe I did, and that's why I love it? I don't remember anymore.
_________

Housemarque's games before Returnal were all essentially arcade shooters, and they all sold very, very well and even the critics praised them (while they usually don't even review shmups). Did the captivating, modern graphics of those games influence user perception? I assume even those who weren't used to arcades picked them up, and a lot of them loved them. Maybe if the exact same games were pixel art they would have had a different impact?
I'm reminded of the PS3 era, for example, Sine Mora, a game with that truly pointless timer mechanic, yet it sold well and even got a rerelease. Was it all down to its aesthetics?

[Steven]

Yep, Ketsui Deathtiny gives you limited credits and you have to unlock more, although I think all you have to do is to start the game and game over, so you don't actually have to play the game at all. I think ShotTriggers Daioujou does this too.

[LordHypnos]

Is it that uncommon to have unlockable continues? I feel like I've seen that in a decent number of games. Way back in the year 2000 (cue Conan O'Brien Year 2000 bit), the Dreamcast port of Mars Matrix has limited continues to start with. They are one of the things you can buy in the shop with points that you earned by scoring points in the game. I know I've seen it elsewhere as well.

[Steven]

I've only seen limited credits in a handful of games, and almost all of those are on Neo Geo AES. Then again I've also only really been playing this genre for three and a half years, so there is still a massive pile of games that I haven't played yet.

[AGermanArtist]

Is it that uncommon to have unlockable continues? I feel like I've seen that in a decent number of games. Way back in the year 2000 (cue Conan O'Brien Year 2000 bit), the Dreamcast port of Mars Matrix has limited continues to start with. They are one of the things you can buy in the shop with points that you earned by scoring points in the game. I know I've seen it elsewhere as well.

Devil Blade Reboot

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Is it that uncommon to have unlockable continues? I feel like I've seen that in a decent number of games.

Yeah, there's definitely a number of games with that as a feature with the idea being eventually you unlock a Free Play mode after a given time. Gradius V, Judgement Silversword, Eschatos, I think Under Defeat? Plenty more out there I'm sure. It's a gentle way of encouraging the player to try doing as well as they can on one credit and not treat the game as a 30 minute credit feed experience, without forcing them to only have the option to play a single credit Score Attack mode.

[LordHypnos]

Is it that uncommon to have unlockable continues?

I know what I was thinking of earlier. Fast Striker on the DC also has unlockable continues. I'm not sure exactly what unlocks them. Possibly just playtime. Not sure if it ever hits freeplay.

Some other stuff that I've played recently that has limited continues include Elemental Master, Tumiki Fighters, and Neko Navy. EM doesn't support saving AFAIK so I don't think you can earn additional continues there, TF I'm not sure, Neko Navy I'm pretty sure I remember the continues gradually increasing as I played. EM and TF both send you back to the beginning of the stage if you use a continue, I don't think I've actually used a continue in NN, so I'm not sure if anything special happens with continues in that one.

There are probably others, but I don't usually pay much attention to continues.

EDIT: More games that have limited continues- Twinkle Tale (MD), which also allows you to earn continues through scoring (I think). Note that continuing doesn't reset your score, and you only have 1 life, so continues end up being kind of like lives here, except that you also have a small health bar, much like in Elemental Master, which is actually standing in for lives here. Parodius Da! (PCE) also gives you limited continues.

[Light1000]

Housemarque's games before Returnal were all essentially arcade shooters, and they all sold very, very well and even the critics praised them (while they usually don't even review shmups). Did the captivating, modern graphics of those games influence user perception? I assume even those who weren't used to arcades picked them up, and a lot of them loved them. Maybe if the exact same games were pixel art they would have had a different impact?
I'm reminded of the PS3 era, for example, Sine Mora, a game with that truly pointless timer mechanic, yet it sold well and even got a rerelease. Was it all down to its aesthetics?

Aesthetics/graphics are very important, but really the main thing is just having an identifiable draw at all. I talked with a non-"shmupper" friend once about this topic, he told me that the only shmups he was ever interested in were:
1. Zeroranger because of the artstyle, he's talked with the dev before, and the system erasure logo animation
2. Darius because of the 3-screen gimmick
3. Ikaruga because the concept art looked cool
But in all of these cases it didn't push him "over the edge" to actually buying any of these games, and it certainly didn't for the vast majority of people although it still helped bring in a larger-than-average audience (Zeroranger has at least 30k sales according to estimations and Ikaruga sold >200k across XBLA+Steam)

[Faith]

From memory, Blue Revolver (Single Action) you needed to unlock Free Play from stars which you earned from Game Over scorecard.

Gunvein has a funny system which I think you start with two or three credits first, but you could earn more by playing the missions which would give you a small objective to do and complete. I say "funny" because some people complained some missions were harder than main game (I think they are referring to the main game on Mild difficulty though) haha.

I think it is also common to lock e.g. TLB behind at least a 1CC.

I know for Crimzon Clover some people complained about not being able to see TLB if you Continue.

Personally I feel credits should be limited, but I think giving incentive to get better and to earn more credits by training or missions is good.

Actually, speaking of Gunvein, if I remember correctly Boghog had many rants about credit feeding and that is why Gunvein is designed with both the "earned" credits and checkpoint.

Ultimately, I think that is the best approach. Because let's say you keep dying at mid-boss... if you credit feed your way through, I do not believe you learn anything. But, if like in the case of Gunvein, every time you use a credit you are forced to re-do the mid-boss fight from the start... then you keep practicing it until you can finish it without Continue. So in a way it also is a better way to give some forgiveness to the player, but make sure that the player is also forced to learn to a certain extent.

For Gunvein, there is always a checkpoint obviously at start of level, but also before mid-boss, after mid-boss, and before level boss. Which really should not be a hard system to design, since there really are not too many checkpoints to worry about. Now that I think about it and type it all out, this really seems to be the best system.

And I know this was very intentional for Gunvein.

In that sense, Gunvein is actually a damn good STG for new players because the game also has a very good tutorial to teach some important STG fundamentals.

[Faith]

The other thing would be getting rid of the idea of an arcade gauntlet entirely (or have it be an optional mode), and just give people a bunch of bite sized, standalone challenges that can be repeated until beaten. I've seen platformers that do this pretty successfully. People seem to be able to understand the idea of a single stage, with challenging gameplay, that they need to repeat until they win and unlock the next stage. A full length 1cc requires a lot more effort and planning to get through.

Like Dreamer does this!

So the game has 9 stages total, and you must first play each and every one of them on their own before you unlock the "arcade" mode which they call Trial Tour.

And in Trial Tour, what happens is you play stage 1, then you can select either to do 2 or 3 next. Then once you finish 2 or 3, you can select to either do 4 or 5 next (and then 6 and 7). The only "fixed" stages are 1 and 8 (and 9 which is the "True Last Stage" if you managed to hit the criteria for it). So each run is: 1, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7, 8, (9).

So because of this system it actually makes sense that the game forces you to play individual stages first.

Of course there is also a mode called All Trial Tour which you do every stage from 1-9, and this is brutal (my Nightmare 1CC for it is around 50 minutes), so you can consider it like a 2-ALL. But anyway, just saying that this has been done in STG before, just not very common.

But I approve of it! Like Dreamer is really a super lot of fun.

[Steven]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, and this thread is both ancient and long so I'm not going to check, but do people want shooting games to be mainstream? Why would anyone want that? Isn't that how we get things like Cygni and Sine Mora? It's easy to use those two as the default punching bags, but I'm sure someone somewhere wants more games like those, but...

I'm sure it would also end up infesting the genre with limitless DLC and unfinished games and all of the other problems of modern mainstream games. Definitely do not want.

[AGermanArtist]

Not mainstream as such, but a large enough audience to warrant new games of a high and polished standard, sold at a reasonable price.

[Steven]

We have those already, though: I think GG Aleste 3, Cotton Reboot, High Tension, Rock 'n' Roll, the new Kiki Kaikai, Grand Cross Renovation, R-Type Final 2 (yes, I know it released unfinished and has a bunch of DLC, both of which I just said are shit, but it's still a good game despite that, and at least a lot of that stuff was free), and RefRain certainly all fall under that category, and hopefully upcoming games like Salamander III, Rock With You, and Tatsujin Extreme do as well. There are probably more that I haven't played, but it's just an example.

Yes, it would be nice to have more games like this, but I'm pretty satisfied with what we are getting now.

[Randorama]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, and this thread is both ancient and long so I'm not going to check, but do people want shooting games to be mainstream?

Well, yes, though over the years, most people would always disguise this in a "if shmups are mainstream, there would be new games coming out on a regular basis". Please keep in mind that the thread was opened in 2010, and by that year the genre was indeed comatose, and people were just obsessing over Cave as the "last hope for shmups".

My two cents: the bizarre side-effect of decades-long threads is that the original OP and discussion ensuing from this OP may become obsolete or at least not so relevant, over the passing of time. It does not help that this thread has been cyclically resurrected by people who honestly are displaying really heavy cases of the Dunning-Kruger effect and thus derailing a possibly obsolete discussion in all kinds of non-sensical, and frankly mildly irrational directions (e.g. "how to fix shmups so that normies will love them").

Regarding your latest post, I would simply add that I am seeing a lot of new sequels that would have been unthinkable in 2010, but that make sense to me for a genre that might qualify as liminal/niche in 2025: not popular enough to warrant big budgets and the popularisation of new series/characters/etc., but popular enough, again, to warrant new entries. I might actually write an "effortpost" (copyright/TM by Sima Tuna on the word!) on genres in general, at some point, but for now I will simply say that it is a bit too early to ring the death toll for the genre.

Then again, I have been hearing claims about shmups' demise since 1991 or so, and I might actually be able to truthfully say that you were not even born, when I was playing Varth in my uncle's arcade. So, enough despairing and wishing for mainstream love. The genre has always been sitting "betwixt and between"

EDIT:

Since we live in strange times, though, a Slap Fight 2 would not be half bad. Same style, updated graphics, and same score system that would however build on four decades on cumulative knowledge on how to make "fun score-driven shmups" (but possibly, not the "bloated" Exa arcadia revisions). Maybe we could prepare a study showing to Yuge-san that there are at least 50k people willing to buy a game like that. Niche? Maybe so. But with hard numbers and a trustworthy fanbase, good projects may even turn a profit. In time for the 40th anniversary, even! (i.e. 1986-2026)

How is this, for a Walter Mitty midsummer, middle-aged daydreamin' session?

[Steven]

Regarding your latest post, I would simply add that I am seeing a lot of new sequels that would have been unthinkable in 2010, but that make sense to me for a genre that might qualify as liminal/niche in 2025: not popular enough to warrant big budgets and the popularisation of new series/characters/etc., but popular enough, again, to warrant new entries.

I think the most interesting part of this whole thing is that almost half of my list is Cotton and EVERY ONE OF THEM is really really good! Cotton was always good, but I don't think anybody expected Cotton to be revived after almost 20 years of nothingness and to also be the defining example of modern horizontal shooting, which was previously Gradius and R-Type's thing. Final 2 was good, but I know a lot of people don't like it for various reasons and Gradius has been absent since ReBirth almost 20 years ago! Tatsujin Extreme is still largely an unknown, but we all saw it coming years ago and with Yuge and Saito leading the project, I'm not worried about it at all.

Since we live in strange times, though, a Slap Fight 2 would not be half bad. Same style, updated graphics, and same score system that would however build on four decades on cumulative knowledge on how to make "fun score-driven shmups" (but possibly, not the "bloated" Exa arcadia revisions). Maybe we could prepare a study showing to Yuge-san that there are at least 50k people willing to buy a game like that. Niche? Maybe so. But with hard numbers and a trustworthy fanbase, good projects may even turn a profit. In time for the 40th anniversary, even! (i.e. 1986-2026)

That was the plan and Ichikawa-san, who made Slap Fight MD, was actively working on it, but it got cancelled. My sadness is immense.

But yeah, this thread is old and a lot of stuff has happened since it was made. CAVE is a zombie on life support, Toaplan, R-Type, Cotton, Aleste, and probably some more things that I am forgetting have been revived, ShotTriggers and ACA now exist, and now there are probably more STG releases than at any other point in history if you count the rereleases and stuff. I sure picked the best possible time to start playing this genre, if nothing else.

[Lemnear]

Not mainstream as such, but a large enough audience to warrant new games of a high and polished standard, sold at a reasonable price.

THIS
For several generations, shmups were technical gems that pushed hardware to its limits, but now nobody really does, and if they do, it's just that (and the game sucks).
I'm not a fan of Gradius, but I would have preferred a Konami Gradius with Cygni graphics, rather than Cygni. But if they commissioned it to an external group (and Salamander III to M2), it means Konami no longer knows how to make certain games. As I was saying, it's a lost art. This also applies to Capcom, Taito/Square Enix, and many others.

[LordHypnos]

do people want shooting games to be mainstream?

Speaking for myself: not really (as I mentioned in a post earlier), however I think it's an interesting thought experiment, nevertheless. There are some challenging games that are somewhat mainstream, what is it that they do differently from shmups? Probably some of it just comes down to a sort of intangible cultural acceptance, but what else is there to it?

It's also a bit of an excuse to share anecdata of how normies perceive such games and other skill-based games, which can be interesting as well.

Like Dreamer

Sounds like this also does a sort of vaguely Darius type thing where there are branching paths. I could see that also being a way to counteract the impression of shmups as brief experiences, lacking depth.

[AGermanArtist]

I'm fine with Konami and Capcom farming work out. I'd like to see Terarrin and Team Ladybug get more work and support with established franchises.

[AGermanArtist]

There are some very capable people on the forum I'd like to see more from. I really enjoyed Space Moth and Crisis Wing. I think Trap's working for Exa now amirite? The forum could pool resources and back its own games. I'm on good terms with a guy I used to work with who recently did art/animation for Shredder's Revenge and Toxic Crusader. I get good mate's rates with Paul Nicholson (the guy who does art/design for Aphex and me <---) and Carl Finlow and a bunch of other people like James Shinra for example who'd only be too pleased to work on a videogame. I know Finlow would for sure, he reads Edge and loves videogames. A shmup with some real dark electro vibes from someone like Finlow would be a selling point.

[Randorama]

Steven, re: Cotton, I think that the "best selling shmups” list that Light1000 posted in the previous page is enlightening. I will repeat it without using quotes, to keep the post "slender":

THE (Partial) LIST

Deathsmiles 360 - 280k across all regions
Parodius Deluxe Pack PSX - 280k (JP)
Twinbee 3 FC - 238k (JP)
Rayforce Saturn - 225k (JP)
Parodius Deluxe Pack Saturn - 180k (JP)
Moero Twinbee FC - 173k (JP)
...

I imagine that these are incomplete numbers but, still, I believe that there is a lot of "cuteness" and/or anthropomorphisation in the top six, with Rayforce being a notable outlier (but the attract screen makes it clear that the pilot is a single courageous woman against an army).

I do not have any relevant sociological/ethnographic evidence at hand, but I suspect that characters of various "genders" (in the Latin sense of the word, i.e. "categories") provide more attractive avatara to more committed fans and more casual fans alike.

As I kid, I had a definite preference for shmups involving characters of some sort (e.g. Thundercade had visible motorcycle drivers, Side Arms had mechas) or at least presenting the pilots of ships and planes (e.g. Proco and Tiat from Darius, who were very visible on the original cab). R-Type has really memorable antagonists in the Bydo and the general Giger-esque design has a morbid charm. Gradius, on the other hand, always struck me as an absurdly anonymously designed series except for the Moai, and I still think Parodius covered that part better (ahem!).

By the way, horizontal shooting was and still is a Darius and R-Type thing. The first three Gradius games were released in 1985, 1988 and 1990, and the fourth in 1999 (Gaiden was 1996 on PS1, I guess). The first two series simply have had more entries over the years (up to these days, even) and played a bigger role in the genre, with Darius being one of the earliest shmups featuring a (slightly) elaborate scoring system. I remember articles about people skipping work to go and play DariusBurst in Tokyo arcades, after all.

Gradius, instead, seems to have an inflated social status on this forum due to the NES port from the 1980s, which seems to be a fond memory for people who probably still drink milk before sleeping and wear their sweater inside their trousers. And this comment comes from someone who 1-CC'ed the first two games and Salamander 1+2 in the arcade, a few decades ago.

Re: Slap Fight 2. I believe that I periodically forget about the Ichikawa-san’s cancelled plan, but anyway it was a bout of the "Walter Mitty syndrome". From time to time, I also need to lose myself in in pointless daydreaming, especially on torrid and work-loaded Friday afternoons

Whether this is a good period or not for shmups, however...we will see. I wanted to write that we are seeing too many sequels and no new ideas/series, but I will completely change my mind unapologetically and in a completely biased manner if some sequels end up happening in some miraculous way (hint: two mid-90s titleS, lock-on systemS, badass female protagonistS).

Everyone else remains on ignore, by the way.

[HELLEPHANT]

I can't be bothered to read 45+ pages of opinions - Did anyone ever bother to debunk the myth that shmups "didn't want to cater to players who want hour-long cutscenes"

Because it's a myth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9BicddeXdg

No respect for the OG?