What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Sumez]

Blasphemous has long been my go-to example for why I'm generally struggling to enjoy Metroidvania games. It's a game that's baseline "good", and obviously it features some absolutely jawdropping artwork.
But at the same time it's such a generic run of the mill metroidvania game that it can't help feeling like something I've played countless times before. It adds nothing to the formula, resulting in an experience I barely remember anything from.

I heard several people saying Blasphemous 2 was "much better", and the physical release was really cheap, so the curiousity got the better of me.

Spoiler alert: It's not. It's completely the same ordeal. Extremely toothless, forgettable and formulaic, excelling at absolutely nothing outside of -once again- the incredible aesthetics.

The exploration element seems fine at first, apparently giving you several different places to go, but exploring any of those paths very quickly boils it down to an apparent "do any of these three areas in the order you want before proceeding", after which you're then just taken to a series of other areas one at a time, following a very linear structure, only really tapping into the interconnected world via rigidly forced backtracking employed just to access various pickups you need to pass over at first.
The graphics, despite being artistically really pretty, struggle to truly separate each area from eachother in any real distinct manner. Especially coming straight off Afterimage which is incredible at achieving all of these things as well as I could imagine, Blastphemous 2 just feels extremely pointless in comparison.

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I seem to recall the heavy and methodic "mildly souls-influenced" combat of the original Blasphemous being at least a bit challenging. Either way that is absolutely not the case with the sequel. Enemies seem to exist mostly just to inconvenience you rather than challenge you, and even the traversal puzzles are so repetitive that they also feel like work. The one thing I would say the game actually does poorly is enemy/encounter design. You spend a lot of time just methodically dodging attacks while wailing on enemies with far too large health pools, and fighting them is very rarely any resemblence of "fun". This really makes me anxious about the prospects of the new 2D Ninja Gaiden title from the same team.

The boss fights however are actually occasionally quite fun, but most of them suffer from most likely going down first attempt. The ones that don't are probably the highlight of the game, albeit a small one.

So to reiterate - really not a bad game, but similarly to the first one it's a really tough one to recommend. You need to absolutely love Metroidvanias in general to justify also spending time with this one. And anyone considering doing it regardless, truly 100% needs to go through Afterimage first. It's a much, much better attempt at doing the same thing, in every concievable way.

[ryu]

Blasphemous has long been my go-to example for why I'm generally struggling to enjoy Metroidvania games. It's a game that's baseline "good", and obviously it features some absolutely jawdropping artwork.
But at the same time it's such a generic run of the mill metroidvania game that it can't help feeling like something I've played countless times before. It adds nothing to the formula, resulting in an experience I barely remember anything from.

What? Blasphemous is the -one- metroidvaniagame that sticks out to me because of its high difficulty. It's almost like a NES action platformer, but with exploration.

Blasphemous 2 is the generic one because it's so easy in comparion. :/

[Lethe]

I'm going to be contrarian and say that Blasphemous's worst failing is its aesthetics. If there was substance behind the imagery to make it add up to more than the sum of its parts, I'd be more forgiving of nondescript gameplay. But it is just all imagery, there's nothing to it. Both issues have the same root cause - the developers simply weren't able to produce the spark of art, so inevitably the result is workmanlike. The same shit happens in 95% of the current fad-genre releases, formulas are copied over and over by people who don't understand why they worked in the first place, while they've only got one or two ideas of their own to slap on top.

[Sima Tuna]

I really can't agree about Blasphemous. I think the game is beautiful and the story, while rather incomprehensible at first, feeds back into its religious-historical inspiration. I'll admit I bounced off Blasphemous pretty hard the first time, and I still kind of think the instant death spike pits in a game where you can't easily retry areas is a little bullshitty. The hit detection on the spikes themselves feels overly generous... In favor of the spikes. So that you get impaled sometimes when it feels like you shouldn't.

But other than that, I loved my time with Blasphemous. The game IS pretty easy compared to classic era platformers and arcade games, but it's a metroidvania and you generally can't enforce the same per-screen density in screens you're meant to be moving through again and again and again in the process of exploration and backtracking. But if you do want per-screen density in your search action games, check out Astalon. I ragequit that game because I was tired of solving the same rooms over and over and over when there was no fucking reward for it except a "chance to backtrack through an area to maybe get to the next area that might have progression in it but probably doesn't."

Also don't agree about the visuals not being inspired. Blasphemous seems to me one of the very few indie games that is more than a soulless copy of what came before. It's less Souls than Castlevania, tbh. There are really very few true Souls elements in Blasphemous. The game does have a pretty typical metvania structure (where certain content IS gated and not truly freeform) but I don't think the game is bad for it.

Now, Blasphemous 2 looks quite a bit more uninspired than the first game, and I've heard they toned the difficulty down a ton. I'm not a huge fan of the instant death spikes in B1, but they've been reduced to nuisance status (from what I have heard) in B2 and that's the opposite extreme.

I don't know if you played Blasphemous in the original Spanish audio, but I think the game benefits a ton from embracing the narrative experience that way. Granted, not everyone wants a narrative experience in their 2d action scrollers and I get it.

I dunno man, I just don't think Blasphemous fits at all with what I think of when I imagine nu-retro, boring, workmanlike indie slop. That would be more like the Scott Pilgrim game or Wayforward's products. Stuff that is technically "fine" or mediocre but feels kinda like shit to play.

[Sumez]

What? Blasphemous is the -one- metroidvaniagame that sticks out to me because of its high difficulty. It's almost like a NES action platformer, but with exploration.

Blasphemous 2 is the generic one because it's so easy in comparion. :/

Thanks for confirming this. I do recall the first game actually putting up a bit of a fight occasionally, and me actually dying and having to retry sections. There is really none of that in the sequel which makes it feel really bleak.
That said there are many metroidvanias which are definitely a lot more challenging.

[Sumez]

but it's a metroidvania and you generally can't enforce the same per-screen density in screens you're meant to be moving through again and again and again in the process of exploration and backtracking.

I understand this dilemma, and I honestly don't really have any solution for how to overcome it, it's one of the biggest issues with Metroidvanias, typically. Because you also want your game to actually be fun to play right? Wading through enemies who do nothing to stand in your way really isn't fun. Also, when Blasphemous 1/2 doesn't really do anything to cash in on either fun combat or exploration, what is there really outside of looking at the cool art?

Again, I didn't have this issue with Afterimage. It's not a particularly tough game either, but there's plenty of sections where I had to concentrate to make sure I would be able to progress, not unlike a Souls style game. Seriously. Play Afterimage.

[guigui]

Seriously. Play Afterimage.

Still seconding Afterimage, great Metroidvania.

When it comes to this genre I had the most out of SOTN, Hollow Knight, Bloodstained, Afterimage, Order of Ecclesia. Was disappoint by Blasphemous, Sundered.

I like to come back to the genre once in a while, but not sure which one to go next. Any other recommended titles you guys might have ?

[it290]

Blasphemous 1 is also one of my favorite 'Metroidvania' games, although I really feel this is a bit of a misnomer, since very little if anything on the game's critical path is gated behind unlocking movement tech. These abilities exist, but mostly for the sake of discovering additional items and content — they are pretty much entirely optional. I think the aesthetic is utterly unique and really holds the game together, and in fact I think both games are pretty narratively cohesive if a bit vague in their backstory (which bothers me not at all).

The first game admittedly has some annoying QoL issues (like why I can't I equip all the relics at once), but it's been fun enough for me to clear multiple times including 100%ing the map and all the challenges, and the three penitences you unlock in NG+ significantly vary the way the game plays which along with the multiple endings add a ton of replay value. The boss designs are, for the most part, good and satisfying, and there's a lot of varied strategy in the way you can take them down.

I enjoy the second game as well — have not completed it yet — but it's definitely nowhere near on par with the first in terms of overall vibe or level/world design. Unlike the original game it relies _heavily_ on movement tech and backtracking, and I think this strips out a lot of made the original special. Still a good game, just not an exceptional one. I'm not sure if I agree that it's significantly easier, though — some of the bosses I've found to be on par with those in the OG game.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm going to be contrarian and say that Blasphemous's worst failing is its aesthetics. If there was substance behind the imagery to make it add up to more than the sum of its parts, I'd be more forgiving of nondescript gameplay. But it is just all imagery, there's nothing to it.

If memory serves the developers based a lot of the game's imagery on the art/history/religion/etc. of Spain, where they're based, which obviously comprises a lot of varied stuff and will invariably come off as surreal or dissonant when selectively melded together, especially in the form of a video game.

Personally I think it works, particularly coupled with the game's over-arching narrative, where horrible stuff happens for seemingly no reason but most everyone accepts it as how things should/must be; in a post I made way back when I first tried the game I compared the atmosphere to that of a "scare-the-congregation-straight" mystery play.

[it290]

Yeah, I agree, it's definitely not all imagery — tons of stuff in the game has deep cultural and religious roots and the penitents and the Miracle itself are metaphors for the flagellants during the Black Plague who believed that the plague was punishment inflicted by God and that self-penitence was the only path towards salvation.. you know, just like in the game.

[Sima Tuna]

I'm going to be contrarian and say that Blasphemous's worst failing is its aesthetics. If there was substance behind the imagery to make it add up to more than the sum of its parts, I'd be more forgiving of nondescript gameplay. But it is just all imagery, there's nothing to it.

If memory serves the developers based a lot of the game's imagery on the art/history/religion/etc. of Spain, where they're based, which obviously comprises a lot of varied stuff and will invariably come off as surreal or dissonant when selectively melded together, especially in the form of a video game.

Personally I think it works, particularly coupled with the game's over-arching narrative, where horrible stuff happens for seemingly no reason but most everyone accepts it as how things should/must be; in a post I made way back when I first tried the game I compared the atmosphere to that of a "scare-the-congregation-straight" mystery play.

Much of it has to do with historical periods of suffering (black death) where a sort of death-worship sprung up and was couched in Christian terms and imagery. The idea that suffering was a way to purify the soul took hold and I think this is also why you have the Penitent One with his vow of silence and a bunch of other characters with self-inflicted pain or deformities. The basic story of the game is that a ton of supernatural punishments started happening to people along with really weird other shit that made them believe self-punishment could fix their problems. The Penitent One is just one of a million other Penitent Ones, although he's the only one we know of who survives past the beginning area of the game. I won't spoil the game but there is a reason he's doing what he's doing and it's in keeping with the theme of self-punishment to escape supernatural horrors.

If you look at medieval art from the period of the Black Death, you will see a lot of similar themes. Paintings of death playing chess or hanging out by bedsides. Self-flaggelation. The fervor of the day was a sort of death worship imo. When death is all around you, how do you deal with it and carry on? How can you rationalize the immense suffering from a source you can't understand, and for no cause?

So I really can't agree with anyone who thinks Blasphemous is a generic game. I understand not liking this or that about how it plays but the artistic vision and sense of place of the game are extremely strong. And probably a lot more impactful in many ways than Search Action darlings like Hollow Knight and Super Metroid. Especially if you have any cultural ties to the Black Death, Catholicism or Spanish culture. Some of the music is just exceptional too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE1kt4zmd1w

[Sumez]

So I really can't agree with anyone who thinks Blasphemous is a generic game. I understand not liking this or that about how it plays but the artistic vision and sense of place of the game are extremely strong.

Those are the only thing the game does that stands out though.
Everything else is painfully generic, toothless and just feels like going through motions you've already done in countless other games. Admitted, I'm not a person to play a game for the story. Especially not a game where most of the time is spent not engaging with the story anyway.

To repeat the point I made starting this whole talk (really cool to hear people's thoughts though):
There is zero reason to recommend Blasphemous to anyone unless you're willing to play it for its cool aesthetics alone

[ryu]

I don't think criticizing games for a lack of novel mechanics is fair now that the medium has reached a good point of maturity.

I'd rather get a great game again with unchanged mechanics and only new aesthetics and stages/courses over a game worse than what we have. Not to mention the risk of degression associated with rating terrible mechanics positively only because they're novel (no, nobody ever needed a lapless racing game).

[Sumez]

I don't think criticizing games for a lack of novel mechanics is fair now that the medium has reached a good point of maturity.

It's not that it's lacking "novel" mechanics as much as it's lacking anything to make it engaging or memorable.

I did not criticize it for that however. Like I said before it's still a decent game. It just makes it hard to recommend - its biggest issues isn't of its own design but of the context it exists in, where literally hundreds of other games are doing the exact same thing, many of them better.

The only thing I'd criticize Blasphemous 2 for is how mindless and repetitive the combat is.

[Marc]

Blasphemous has long been my go-to example for why I'm generally struggling to enjoy Metroidvania games. It's a game that's baseline "good", and obviously it features some absolutely jawdropping artwork.
But at the same time it's such a generic run of the mill metroidvania game that it can't help feeling like something I've played countless times before. It adds nothing to the formula, resulting in an experience I barely remember anything from.

I felt like this by the time I ditched Salt & Sanctuary, which has indirectly put me off playing the Blasphemous cart I've had sitting on the shelf a few years.

I've just started the Prince of Persia game, and I'm struggling to get into that as well. It's ugly, and combat pretty much seems to be 'wait for enemy to attack, then dodge or parry depending on colour'. Seems very rigid. I don't think I'm a fan of this type of combat in 2D at all, really.

[Sima Tuna]

I loved salt and sanctuary because the combat was pretty fast and DMC-like, actually. You can do the whole "sword uppercut into an air combo and then a helm splitter to finish" in Salt and Sanctuary.

Oh, the game is ugly as sin, no argument there. It was made by a guy and his wife, and the wife has a very particular art style. But I still regularly replay S&S. I'd rank it far above Blasphemous on gameplay. There's exactly one shitty boss in S&S, and the others are largely great or okay. The game is too easy but the alternative would probably end up frustrating for most players.

[LordHypnos]

I think I've maybe been playing too many video games lately. Some of them include:

Cave Story- I played through part of this a while back, on the Dreamcast port. Decided to give it another go, and felt like I was getting a hang of the gameplay more this time, not that it's particularly unwieldy gameplay, I just have historically sucked at platformers. However, I ended up getting stuck on Monster X. This game is pretty great though. Good weapon selection, and the platforming feels really tight.

Kero Blaster- Decided to give this a shot after getting stuck on Cave Story. The weapons system is somewhat simplified, but I like that you can move in a different direction from the shot (though this can sometimes create difficulty when boss enemies move to the opposite side of the screen from your shot, but that's not a knock, just means that you need to get a handle on releasing the shot for long enough to change direction. I did complete this game, but not without making my character pretty OP. I think I had 6 or 7 hearts before the end of it, and all weapons maxed out. I started the Zangyou mode, but haven't gotten very far on it

Gunlord- When I played this game back in the day, I was never able to get very far, but I feel like I've gotten a little bit more of a hang of the gameplay, not unlike with Cave Story. There's a lot of things I like about the gameplay, but it suffers a bit from enemies firing at you from offscreen or blending into the background too much. At least that's my scrub excuse for not getting past the third stage yet. I will probably continue to come back to this periodically though.

TLoZ: A Link Between Worlds- Of all things, the game Monolith reminded me of how much I enjoyed playing through Link's Awakening on the Gameboy Pocket, probably 20 years ago, so I decided to try this game because I have a 3DS for sort of weird reasons, and it seemed to be pretty well liked among TLoZ fans. So far I've found it to be pretty enjoyable. Lots of puzzles that have taken some thought to figure out, mostly pretty fun boss fights (though a few of them I kind of brute forced my way through), and good over all action. The non-linear progression seems to work pretty well. My only really gripe is that I can't grab items that are at a different elevation from me with my boomerang, but even that is sort of justified by some of the tools caring about planes (e.g. the ice wand's projectile comes from above, and can be blocked by overhangs, while the sand wand draws up sand from below).

[Lethe]

More impactful ... especially if you have any cultural ties to Catholicism

No, that's part of why I'm unimpressed. Despite some imagery being immensely on-the-nose, it largely avoids direct connection to the real world, which is 100% acceptable or even desirable. The problem is how it struggles to integrate that recognizable IRL imagery into its own world. It left me with memorable images in the way one remembers a painting, but I can't remember how the things I saw related to the game's events, or related to the narrative (or even remember much of the narrative at all). There is an enormous qualitative difference between how Blasphemous handles its inspirations and how, for instance, Bloodborne does it.

Or for a more lighthearted parallel: I'm pretty big into entomology. I'm nonplussed by Mushihimesama. Mushi doesn't do a good job of representing bugs or what's enchanting about them. Its presentation is ultimately a gimmick by amateurs. Which is fine, because most games don't need their presentation to be more than just something fun to look at, especially arcade games - but in my situation I can't help but turn my nose up a little at the missed opportunity. And if the subject matter were more complex than haha funny insects, such as Catholicism's idiosyncratic relationship with tragedy and the nuanced interpretations spawned thereof, it would be natural to expect higher standards from it.

(Interpretations of Blasphemous as mere edgy apostatisism are a bit braindead IMO. It does have a convincing grasp of its own cultural context, even if most of it is just used for shock value. I feel like gamers have very low standards for religious themes due to farcical Japanese takes being so normalized. )

[Stevens]

Blasphemous has long been my go-to example for why I'm generally struggling to enjoy Metroidvania games. It's a game that's baseline "good", and obviously it features some absolutely jawdropping artwork.
But at the same time it's such a generic run of the mill metroidvania game that it can't help feeling like something I've played countless times before. It adds nothing to the formula, resulting in an experience I barely remember anything from.

I felt like this by the time I ditched Salt & Sanctuary, which has indirectly put me off playing the Blasphemous cart I've had sitting on the shelf a few years.

I've just started the Prince of Persia game, and I'm struggling to get into that as well. It's ugly, and combat pretty much seems to be 'wait for enemy to attack, then dodge or parry depending on colour'. Seems very rigid. I don't think I'm a fan of this type of combat in 2D at all, really.

It's not just you guys, every 2d Metroid inspired-souls like I've found forgetful at best.

[it290]

So I really can't agree with anyone who thinks Blasphemous is a generic game. I understand not liking this or that about how it plays but the artistic vision and sense of place of the game are extremely strong.

Those are the only thing the game does that stands out though.
Everything else is painfully generic, toothless and just feels like going through motions you've already done in countless other games. Admitted, I'm not a person to play a game for the story. Especially not a game where most of the time is spent not engaging with the story anyway.

To repeat the point I made starting this whole talk (really cool to hear people's thoughts though):
There is zero reason to recommend Blasphemous to anyone unless you're willing to play it for its cool aesthetics alone

Those (extensive list of historical and aesthetic references that don’t even touch on the excellent gameplay which in itself is not quite like anything else in the genre and has unique and cool boss mechanics and power up system) are the only thing the game does to stand out. Why should we like it and not just default to ‘it sucks.’

Please tell me you’re joking right now. This game does so much to recommend itself.

[Sumez]

I've just started the Prince of Persia game, and I'm struggling to get into that as well. It's ugly, and combat pretty much seems to be 'wait for enemy to attack, then dodge or parry depending on colour'. Seems very rigid. I don't think I'm a fan of this type of combat in 2D at all, really.

Yes I had the same feeling from the POP metroidvania.
Seemed like a decent enough game, just once again did nothing to make me want to play it over the hundreds of other metroidvanias flooding the grounds of indie video game development nowadays

I heard good stuff about S&S but never really gave it a chance myself.

[Sumez]

Those (extensive list of historical and aesthetic references that don’t even touch on the excellent gameplay which in itself is not quite like anything else in the genre and has unique and cool boss mechanics and power up system) are the only thing the game does to stand out. Why should we like it and not just default to ‘it sucks.’

Please tell me you’re joking right now. This game does so much to recommend itself.

I love how you're making up stuff not just about the game but also about what I wrote

- If Blasphemous had excellent gameplay I'd like it much more
- If Blasphemous was not like anything else in the genre (as opposed to literally being like everything else in the genre) I'd like it much more
- If it had unique boss fights I'd like it much more
- It does none of those things to stand out
- I never said it sucks. I very specifically said it doesn't suck

EDIT: I'm curious to hear your actual thoughts though. I'd really like to know how you feel like Blasphemous actually separates itself from anything not tying into its aesthetics and story.