PS2 dithering?

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Just Some Guy
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PS2 dithering?

Post by Just Some Guy »

Hey guys. I was wondering if I could get some help please! I’m wondering if some PS2 games like No One Lives Forever, Rainbow Six 3, Splinter Cell, and others are supposed to have dithering? I’m not sure if my console or TV is an issue. Also some games like No One Lives Forever or Socom or Area 51 for example have a strange double pixel thing diagonally making the game look like you need glasses with essentially a double image. If I connect directly to my TV of use a Framemeister it makes no difference and my cables are good quality both RGB and component. Both cable types make no difference not even composite does. I realize most likely it’s an issue with my console or TV if someone can confirm these issues don’t occur on these games when displayed on modern TVs. I’d really appreciate any feedback. Tou guys are awesome
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ASDR
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ASDR »

I can confirm that many PS2 titles have dithering in their high res modes (480p/1080i), but I'm not sure if those you mentioned would be running at 16 bit / dithering :/
tongshadow
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by tongshadow »

If you're running at 480p then yes, it's running at a lower bit depth and some games can have a crappy dithered appearance.
Just Some Guy
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Just Some Guy »

Thanks for replies guys. No it happens on these games at 480i. Again it’s certain games in my collection like 2% of games. Scarface is another example of a game that does it. Does maybe the model matter? SCPH 390001 is mine. Anyway please let me know and thank you
Just Some Guy
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Just Some Guy »

Oops, I meant SCPH 39001.
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ASDR
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ASDR »

I very much doubt your TV is converting PS2 games to a lower bit depth and then adding dithering. Obviously neither is your cable. Different PS2s are not having their framebuffer at a different bit depth. Especially if it's only on certain games. Not sure what kind of answer / solution you're even looking for here?

On the PS1 you there are patches to disable dithering and there are apparently differences in the patter between PS1/PSone/PS2 backwards compat. Not sure if something can be done / changed on the PS2, maybe there are some GSM options?
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by kamiboy »

Way back in the day when the Gamecube had just come out I imported one from across the ocean and spent endless hours researching how I could get a CRT TV sold in Europe that could handle 480p content. At long last I found a Panasonic EDTV that would and imported it from Germany. Games looked absolutely spectacular on it in 480p, however, I noticed two things. One, in wind waker there was a strange visual artefact in the smoke effect which just looked wrong on said TV. And, also the one time I tried hooking a PS1 to it I regretted it immediately because it looked abysmal, horrendously, almost comically bad.

I had an intuitive understanding at the time that both issues were somewhat related and were likely caused by the digital processing in the TV. It likely had some sort of digital conversion of the analogue input signal that:

1: Could not handle 240p content
2: Was causing visual artefacts in certain scenes, most likely due to lack of colour depth in the digital processor

Might be the dithering you mention has a similar cause. On that Panny it happened when graphics had large patches of similar colours smoothly transitioning, like in the smoke effect in Wind Waker.

In the 2000's CRT TVs started getting digital processing, especially in Europe where TVs were eager to frame double the image to 100hz to reduce 50hz flicker. The digital processors also often involved motion prediction for generating the missing frames, a predecessor of the same motion smoothing technology still being used today on TVs. Phillips leaned especially heavily into this, and their TVs image quality as a result just looked garish to my eyes.

Outside of the artefact spoken of, which I only very rarely witnessed, I was quite happy with my Panny, 480p gaming on was glorious. I still had the TV around until 6-7 years ago, but to my more discerning eyes the image quality wasn't so hot anymore, I guess. Ignorance was bliss.
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ASDR
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ASDR »

kamiboy wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:37 am I guess. Ignorance was bliss.
Yep, growing up I never noticed CRT geometry, 3CHIP SNES blur, unshielded cables or shitty PAL conversions :D

But yeah, 100Hz TVs near universally suck. I'm sure there's like that one golden model but largely they combined the downsides of LCDs and CRTs into one. Probably only recommended for watching old TV shows.
jaydenz
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by jaydenz »

Just Some Guy wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:27 pm Hey guys. I was wondering if I could get some help please! I’m wondering if some PS2 games like No One Lives Forever, Rainbow Six 3, Splinter Cell, and others are supposed to have dithering? I’m not sure if my console or TV is an issue. Also some games like No One Lives Forever or Socom or Area 51 for example have a strange double pixel thing diagonally making the game look like you need glasses with essentially a double image. If I connect directly to my TV of use a Framemeister it makes no difference and my cables are good quality both RGB and component. Both cable types make no difference not even composite does. I realize most likely it’s an issue with my console or TV if someone can confirm these issues don’t occur on these games when displayed on modern TVs. I’d really appreciate any feedback. Tou guys are awesome
In fact, there is no difference in image quality when playing games on different sources.
Internal hard drives are the best choice, because they have the highest read speeds. The game will load faster and smoother when playing on DVD.
Just Some Guy
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Just Some Guy »

I’m just trying to see if the double imaging diagonally is normal for some ps2 games on a digital display possibly because of some anomaly of a certain way they interlace the image because the games that display this way with double mirrred pixelization diagonally don’t seem to have this issue in YouTube videos I’ve seen of the same games upscaled on original hardware. So I’m wondering if it’s a TV issue or Framemeister issue etc. It could also be the way it actually is supposed to be and CRT TVS along with scanlines masked the effects idk I’m just trying to see if others experienced this. Also the dithering is the same story. Socom, Area 51, Tribes, No One Lives Forever, Tenchu:Fatal Shadows, are just to name a few.
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Kez
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Kez »

Can you provide any pictures of the artifact?
Just Some Guy
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Just Some Guy »

Later tonight I can give it a go if I have the time but yes I can do it just not sure when I can get around to it. But definitely a good idea to do it
ZellSF
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ZellSF »

tongshadow wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:38 pm If you're running at 480p then yes, it's running at a lower bit depth and some games can have a crappy dithered appearance.
Citation needed.

I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by tongshadow »

ZellSF wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 9:42 pm
tongshadow wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:38 pm If you're running at 480p then yes, it's running at a lower bit depth and some games can have a crappy dithered appearance.
Citation needed.

I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
https://youtu.be/brMW6KFue-I?t=1051

If you're not noticing dithering, please post your PS2 model, cables used and your display. Because if it looks fine for you, it could mean there are specific revisions of the console that suffer from dithering.
StrzxgvNuvWvfld
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by StrzxgvNuvWvfld »

ZellSF wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 9:42 pm
tongshadow wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:38 pm If you're running at 480p then yes, it's running at a lower bit depth and some games can have a crappy dithered appearance.
Citation needed.

I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
Outrun Coast 2 Coast has dithering at 480p that isn't there at 480i and I'm pretty sure it isn't just that the sharper picture makes it more visible
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orange808
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by orange808 »

StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 9:09 pm
Outrun Coast 2 Coast has dithering at 480p that isn't there at 480i and I'm pretty sure it isn't just that the sharper picture makes it more visible
Most 480i content is viewed after deinterlacing. How are you reaching this conclusion?
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StrzxgvNuvWvfld
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by StrzxgvNuvWvfld »

orange808 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:44 am
StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 9:09 pm
Outrun Coast 2 Coast has dithering at 480p that isn't there at 480i and I'm pretty sure it isn't just that the sharper picture makes it more visible
Most 480i content is viewed after deinterlacing. How are you reaching this conclusion?
Because I can see dithering at 480p that I can't see at 480i. I don't understand your point?
gravitone
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by gravitone »

Full frame rendering requires a larger framebuffer then interlaced field rendering, and due to the limited vram, games tended to resort to 16bit color for 480p and higher, and 24/32 bit in 480i mode. So yes, this can create significant observable differences.
ZellSF
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ZellSF »

tongshadow wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 2:05 pm
ZellSF wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2025 9:42 pm
tongshadow wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:38 pm If you're running at 480p then yes, it's running at a lower bit depth and some games can have a crappy dithered appearance.
Citation needed.

I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
https://youtu.be/brMW6KFue-I?t=1051

If you're not noticing dithering, please post your PS2 model, cables used and your display. Because if it looks fine for you, it could mean there are specific revisions of the console that suffer from dithering.
I mean that shows three games. One I don't recognize, Gran Turismo 4 and Resident Evil 4. Both those two are very special cases (Gran Turismo 4 might be doing stuff that's related to 1080i output, Resident Evil 4 is dithered on the Gamecube).

I didn't say there were no games that lowered the color depth at 480p, just that it wasn't common.

I'm not sure why you think dithering could be PS2 model specific at all. What exactly are you imagining is going to be different there?
StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 12:56 pm
orange808 wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2025 2:44 am
StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 9:09 pm
Outrun Coast 2 Coast has dithering at 480p that isn't there at 480i and I'm pretty sure it isn't just that the sharper picture makes it more visible
Most 480i content is viewed after deinterlacing. How are you reaching this conclusion?
Because I can see dithering at 480p that I can't see at 480i. I don't understand your point?
I tried both, both 480i and 480p has the same amount of dithering when not in motion (obviously, when in motion deinterlacing makes for a difference).

Also tried Fatal Frame II, since someone said forcing that to 480p can give dithering. I didn't see it, though the starting area might not have been the best place to check.
gravitone wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 12:46 am Full frame rendering requires a larger framebuffer then interlaced field rendering, and due to the limited vram, games tended to resort to 16bit color for 480p and higher, and 24/32 bit in 480i mode. So yes, this can create significant observable differences.
Most PS2 titles playable in 480p are so because of GSM. It doesn't have that awareness, and if it forced 16-bit color it would be apparent on every game and would've been pretty well known fact by now.

Now there are some games that do this, and there are even fan made 480p patches that do this, but I'm disputing tongshadow's claim of something I've never seen on my favorite console as being common.

And searching for PS2 dithering gives basically more results confirming that yes, Gran Turismo 4 is special, this topic and the MLiG video. And since tongshadow's just referring to MLiG, that makes one source for this claim of a supposedly common issue?
tongshadow
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by tongshadow »

ZellSF wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:30 pm I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
Here are direct captures through HDMI using the RetroGEM@480p mode and motion adaptative deinterlacing for 480i sources. Im using 3x nearest neighbor scaling so it's easier to see.

There is in fact dithering in 480p only, you just didnt notice it.

Image
Image

Image
Image
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Extrems
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by Extrems »

The bitdepth in 480i doesn't really look any better. Are you sure there isn't dithering in 480i being smoothed away by deflickering?
ZellSF
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by ZellSF »

tongshadow wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2025 3:18 am
ZellSF wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2025 8:30 pm I have not seen a single game run in lower bit depth at 480p, and your phrasing makes it sound common.
Here are direct captures through HDMI using the RetroGEM@480p mode and motion adaptative deinterlacing for 480i sources. Im using 3x nearest neighbor scaling so it's easier to see.

There is in fact dithering in 480p only, you just didnt notice it.
Good examples, since they show that I can see dithering just fine. I've still never run across it in a single 480p PS2 game I've played, so I'm still disputing that it's very common.

Despite the overwhelming evidence of... 3 games having it, 2 being very special cases. I'm not sure why you're just taking screenshots of the same games again, if it affects a plethora of other titles, just pick a selection of other ones?

I'm not saying I can't be wrong, it's entirely possibly that luckily all the games I want to play have proper 32-bit 480p... But if you're trying to convince me you're doing a terrible job.
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orange808
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by orange808 »

I suggest an OSSC and simple weave deinterlacing for screen grabs. I don't care enough to test it myself.

As Extrems mentioned, flicker filtering was ubiquitous in the era of NTSC and PAL video and the technique blurs the image by definition; it blends field information to make flicker less apparent. That can also blur and hide dithering. The image is damaged when flicker filtering is applied.

The next issue is deinterlacing video processing. Most deinterlacing algorithms apply sharpening to compensate for flicker filtering blurriness. Obviously, good consumer deinterlacing machines would be tuned to handle "broadcast" video. Recorded or not, it's reasonable to assume that most content would use flicker filtering. Makes sense for games as well, because so many 480i games employ flicker filtering.

It's likely the flicker filter blurred the image and the deinterlacing did some sharpening afterwards.
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Re: PS2 dithering?

Post by TronicG »

kamiboy wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:37 am In the 2000's CRT TVs started getting digital processing, especially in Europe where TVs were eager to frame double the image to 100hz to reduce 50hz flicker. The digital processors also often involved motion prediction for generating the missing frames, a predecessor of the same motion smoothing technology still being used today on TVs. Phillips leaned especially heavily into this, and their TVs image quality as a result just looked garish to my eyes.
Still remember when my parents bought a 32" 16:9 Philips Matchline 100hz CRT and we fired it up for the first time. I could not believe the awful soap opera effect it applied to everything. Specially coming from a 29" 50/60hz Trinitron. It was nice to play PS2 in widescreen but that was about it. You could fiddle with the settings to somewhat mitigate the effect, but never completely turn the digital processing off. I'm still to see a 100hz set that can completely bypass the digital processing circuit. Worst tech ever for gaming, specially because virtually zero sets gave you 480p in exchange. We really were fucked over in Europe up until the advent of LCDs when the whole world was fucked over at the same time.
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