R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
Steven
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Steven »

Squire Grooktook wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 9:43 am
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 9:24 am
Squire Grooktook wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 5:46 am

A game having platforming in it doesn't make it a platformer imo, just like having a projectile attack in a beat em up doesn't make it a shooter.
Like I said before, it's definitely a platformer. The gameplay primarily focuses on traversing a maze-like obstacle course that is very much like what you'd find in any other platformer, minus instant death pits, using the exact same techniques that you'd use in any other platformer. It's different from most other platformers, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a platformer. Consider it to be an open world platformer if you must, because that's possibly exactly what it is. People like open world games, right? I sure as hell don't in most cases.
I would still suggest that "platformer" isn't the right genre moniker for it, since the main focus of the game is exploration, discovery, finding your way through a maze, etc. Sure platforming is there and it's fun but it's definitely an adventure game with platforming and not a platform game with some adventure. I know a lot of genre terms are batty but if you were to call it a platformer in mixed company people would likely come away with a very different impression of what the game actually is, what progression and structure looks like, etc.
Even on this site people say Batsugun isn't a bullet hell game. I don't see why it isn't. It sure plays exactly like every one I've played but without the annoying scoring systems. Perhaps a needlessly complex scoring system that only a handful of people understand is one of the requirements for being a bullet hell game according to some people. I don't know.

If you actually ask IKD to define what 弾幕 actually is I've heard he'll tell you that there is no definition for it because it doesn't exist because shooting games are shooting games. Some are in his style, and that would be what most people would probably call bullet hell or whatever, and others are not, but they're all just shooting games. At least, this is what I've heard he'll say.
Squire Grooktook wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 9:43 am
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 9:24 am A LOT of arcade games struggle with this. Pretty much the entirety of bullet hell struggles from this aside from like... I don't know, Mushihimesame Original? I don't know anything about that game and have barely played it, but it seems straightforward enough.
I think shmups are generally a little better about this because the act of shooting and dodging bullets is fundamentally appealing, which is why cramming a deep scoring system for replay value generally works decently. But it can be an issue in some games. Dangun Feveron is one of my favorite shmups ever, but it took me what felt like an eternity before it "clicked" with me.
About half of the reason that I don't like most bullet hell games is because of the scoring systems. I see them as needlessly complex and obtuse for no reason, and annoying to interact with, which is why I don't like them. Unfortunately, a lot of them are built around interacting with those scoring systems and you're punished in various ways, like missing the entire second half of the game, if you don't.

Dangun Feveron, however, is one of the exceptions, as it has an excellent scoring system that is extremely easy to understand and yet provides a lot of depth and scoring opportunity. It's way too difficult for me, but I've lately been thinking it's because I try to play it at the highest speed setting and crash into everything. I should probably turn the speed down a little.
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Lander
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Lander »

Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 5:36 am You know, I completely forgot that Sonic 06 exists and has a story... a story that never happens because of what happens in the ending of the game. It's like they knew the game was so broken that they decided that shouldn't have ever happened. Really want to go finish that game eventually because although it is bad, its badness is quite exaggerated and it is very playable... mostly.
It's definitely hyper-hated, though playable might still be a bit generous :lol: my prevailing memory of the original release is the speed sections, where hitting a wall (or anything, really) doesn't slow you down or do a good job of moving you out of collision, more or less guaranteeing a death as soon as the iframe window expires.

The Unity fan-redux does a decent job of sanding away the rough edges, though it's very much a free play experience - some cutscenes here and there iirc, but no hubs or anything like that.
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 5:36 am I do want to go check out the Fleetway comics, though. From what I've seen of those they look absolutely silly and that makes them (probably) pretty great. Apparently Fleetway Sonic is an ass to everybody for no reason, which is just so strange to me. I don't know if they ever got printed in an easy to obtain format like an omnibus, but I'm sure the original issues are probably easy enough to get, and, should all else fail, scans probably exist, although I greatly prefer reading books as books and not on a screen.
I remember them being pretty entertaining; a melange of pre-oversaturation Marvel cosmic fare, SatAM evil empire overtones, UK writers doing USA 'tude, and some selective retellings of the game stories.

Plus the occasional childhood-scarring horror issue, because it wouldn't be British kids' media otherwise...

Solid cosmology too; sticks to the classic games and treats each zone as its own plane, plus Mobius, the Little Planet, all that good old stuff.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Steven »

Lander wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 11:27 am
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 5:36 am You know, I completely forgot that Sonic 06 exists and has a story... a story that never happens because of what happens in the ending of the game. It's like they knew the game was so broken that they decided that shouldn't have ever happened. Really want to go finish that game eventually because although it is bad, its badness is quite exaggerated and it is very playable... mostly.
It's definitely hyper-hated, though playable might still be a bit generous :lol: my prevailing memory of the original release is the speed sections, where hitting a wall (or anything, really) doesn't slow you down or do a good job of moving you out of collision, more or less guaranteeing a death as soon as the iframe window expires.

The Unity fan-redux does a decent job of sanding away the rough edges, though it's very much a free play experience - some cutscenes here and there iirc, but no hubs or anything like that.
Yeah, it's not as bad as people would have you believe. It's still a giant glitchy mess, but I've played worse. Not sure if it's a better or worse experience than GBA Sonic 1, but they're pretty close, and I enjoy GBA Sonic 1 in a weird fashion because it makes me laugh. That's all I need to be satisfied with a game, really, hence my kusoge thread from a while ago. I'd like to revisit that and play some more hilariously bad games. Maybe I'll do that this year, but I really do need to play more STGs, as I pretty much stopped playing them at all for the entirety of last year.
Lander wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 11:27 am
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 5:36 am I do want to go check out the Fleetway comics, though. From what I've seen of those they look absolutely silly and that makes them (probably) pretty great. Apparently Fleetway Sonic is an ass to everybody for no reason, which is just so strange to me. I don't know if they ever got printed in an easy to obtain format like an omnibus, but I'm sure the original issues are probably easy enough to get, and, should all else fail, scans probably exist, although I greatly prefer reading books as books and not on a screen.
I remember them being pretty entertaining; a melange of pre-oversaturation Marvel cosmic fare, SatAM evil empire overtones, UK writers doing USA 'tude, and some selective retellings of the game stories.

Plus the occasional childhood-scarring horror issue, because it wouldn't be British kids' media otherwise...

Solid cosmology too; sticks to the classic games and treats each zone as its own plane, plus Mobius, the Little Planet, all that good old stuff.
That sounds like a lot of fun. I had some of the Archie comics. Specifically, I remember having this one

Image

and one of the ones before or after it. That was all I ever read, though. I was living in the middle of nowhere and it was basically impossible to get anything, which is probably why I never heard of a bunch of famous non-PC games like Castlevania or Mega Man or Zelda or Metroid until after the original Smash Bros came out on N64.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by BrianC »

I had (probably still have) some of the early Archie Sonic comics. There was one fun comic that had parodies of various other comic characters, my favorite being Wolvurkel. Other parodies included Bot-Man and Spawn-mower (yes, they went there).

I also remember that odd origin in a US ad for Sonic 1 where Robotnik used to be a kindly scientist named Dr. Ovi Kintobor and Sonic used to be a normal brown hedgehog. Apparently, the Fleetway comics used elements from this origin.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by sunnshiner »

Lemnear wrote: Fri Aug 23, 2024 1:57 pm
guigui wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:51 pm Off topic best Sonic game : Racing all Stars Transformed ?
Best Kart Game Ever, hands down.
ZOMG!11!!! The Afterburner and Outrun levels are just pure distilled Sega goodness.
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Lander
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 12:52 pm That sounds like a lot of fun. I had some of the Archie comics. Specifically, I remember having this one
The Archie stuff was always a mystery to me, since it only showed up here by way of the internet. Though I remember seeing it adapt the newer plots like Adventure, and maybe Adventure 2 at some point.
BrianC wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:45 am I also remember that odd origin in a US ad for Sonic 1 where Robotnik used to be a kindly scientist named Dr. Ovi Kintobor and Sonic used to be a normal brown hedgehog. Apparently, the Fleetway comics used elements from this origin.
Ha, yes - I remember a flashback of Sonic assisting Kintobor with research into speed-boosting sneakers, and accidentally overloading the egg-powered lab machinery after breaking the sound barrier. He gets his signature blue coloring, and the blast inverts Kintobor's name and persona.

Fleetway's Metal Sonic - Metallix - was quite good too as I recall. Shows up during the Sonic CD arc and gets a neat 'insurmountable nemesis' plot that ties into all the time-travel shenanigans.
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XoPachi
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 12:52 pm That sounds like a lot of fun. I had some of the Archie comics. Specifically, I remember having this one

Image
Oh man, I remember this cover in Mega Collection many years ago. The Archie stuff got weird but certainly made you curious... Granted, I don't think the content lived up to most of the covers. Even the IDW stuff tends not to a lot of the time.

They tried to sort of reign things in oddly enough through the Mega Man crossover which actually became canon in the Archie series. It worked well enough for what it is.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Steven »

BrianC wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:45 am I also remember that odd origin in a US ad for Sonic 1 where Robotnik used to be a kindly scientist named Dr. Ovi Kintobor and Sonic used to be a normal brown hedgehog. Apparently, the Fleetway comics used elements from this origin.
Yeah, those details are from the marketing bible thingy that Sega of America made for Sonic 1. A few versions of it are available online somewhere.
Lander wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 10:26 am
Steven wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 12:52 pm That sounds like a lot of fun. I had some of the Archie comics. Specifically, I remember having this one
The Archie stuff was always a mystery to me, since it only showed up here by way of the internet. Though I remember seeing it adapt the newer plots like Adventure, and maybe Adventure 2 at some point.
Archie Sonic lasted for a long time. Wikipedia is unclear but suggests it made it to Unleashed or shortly before Unleashed before it was cancelled. I have no idea what the IWD comics are like, but they made a big deal about the IWD writer doing the story for Frontiers. Maybe that's why my Japanese copy on my Japanese PS5 with the system language set to Japanese defaulted to English text and voices. Not entirely surprising, as most Sonic games have been written in English initially and then translated to Japanese for like 20 years now. The lip sync on Sonic 06 doesn't match the Japanese voice acting at all. It's so ironic that nobody in Japan cares about Sonic to the extent that Sega does things like this but then also releases all of the cool special edition games and stuff only in Japan.
XoPachi wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:43 pm Oh man, I remember this cover in Mega Collection many years ago. The Archie stuff got weird but certainly made you curious... Granted, I don't think the content lived up to most of the covers. Even the IDW stuff tends not to a lot of the time.

They tried to sort of reign things in oddly enough through the Mega Man crossover which actually became canon in the Archie series. It worked well enough for what it is.
Yeah, I remember Sonic taking some dirt out of his shoe and throwing it to make a bridge to run on. Even as a kid, my response to that was WTF?, but that is about all I remember.
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XoPachi
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by XoPachi »

I went through some of the early Archie issues with the covers I always saw as a kid but never got to read.
Jesus Christ...

These were atrocious. The designs, the writing, the ART. How did this manage to last and how did Sega not smite these out of existence?
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by sunnshiner »

Aologies if this has been posted before, I did a quick search but nothing showed up-

5th gen-style 2D Sonic anyone? Sonic Galactic-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWZjjTiVtbE

There's also a 16 bit-style remake of Sonic Triple Trouble-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EClbBtOhNlA
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by XoPachi »

I played the new demo of Sonic Galactic a week ago and didn't really like it.
It has all the style in the world, but that second zone is rough. Despite my best efforts, it took at least 6 minutes to get through act 1 and most of it was watching Sonic get shot out of cannons and do hi speed pipe sequences. At times it was like those autoplaying Mario Maker levels and I just wanted it to be over.
And then the next zone was just a little boring with a terrible boss fight.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by To Far Away Times »

sunnshiner wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 1:40 pm There's also a 16 bit-style remake of Sonic Triple Trouble-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EClbBtOhNlA
Sonic Triple Trouble 16-bit is in rarified air right alongside Sonic Mania. Sonic Team could learn a lot from those games.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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XoPachi wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:41 pm I played the new demo of Sonic Galactic a week ago and didn't really like it.
It has all the style in the world, but that second zone is rough. Despite my best efforts, it took at least 6 minutes to get through act 1 and most of it was watching Sonic get shot out of cannons and do hi speed pipe sequences. At times it was like those autoplaying Mario Maker levels and I just wanted it to be over.
And then the next zone was just a little boring with a terrible boss fight.
Ah, that's a shame, I thought it looked gorgeous.
To Far Away Times wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 10:30 pm Sonic Triple Trouble 16-bit is in rarified air right alongside Sonic Mania. Sonic Team could learn a lot from those games.
I haven't had a chance to play either yet but they're on the to-do list. I'm right back into Sonic stuff at the minute.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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Yeah, I didn't like Sonic 3.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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I think there's a point where a Sonic game ceases to be a Sonic game, like, if a stage is too large to just blast through (if that's how you want to play) and there ends up being no proper flow to it. Also, Sonic should be a 2D sprite not a 3D model (the kart racing games notwithstanding). I always though that the 3D Sonic games looked (full disclosure, I haven't bothered to play any of them because I don't really like 3D platformers) like they somehow lost the essence of the originals in that you don't seem to be able to run through a line of rings and collect them all in one go like you can in the 2D games (ie breaking the flow of the level). Meh, I'm old. I got Sonic 1 with my Mega Drive in 1991...

Sonic 1- brilliant. Sub 15s is possible on Green Hill Zone, act 2, if you get the speed powerup near the start and get the timing of your jumps right. I only ever did this once and my friend didn't believe I'd done it because he wasn't there when it happened (POIDH!) :lol:

Sonic 2- graphically lovely but starting to get a little too large and spread out already. Get back to the gym and tighten up, Sonic. I did enjoy it BITD though. I got the cart as soon as it came out.

Sonic 3- I've only really dipped in and out of this in emulation, haven't really given it a fair crack. I had a SNES and SF2 by now BITD.

I haven't played any of the more recent Sonic games barring the kart games on X360 which I love. I did give Sonic 3 A.I.R. a quick go recently, maybe I need to give that a fair crack too.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Steven »

Colors and Generations are good and almost certainly the best of the 3D games, so I'd at least check those out. I wouldn't call Sonic R good, but it's still fun as hell if you enjoy weird/bad games.

Of the old 2D games, 3&K has the best level design by far, although most of the levels are massive. That's probably why they changed the 50,000 point bonus for finishing a level in under 30 seconds to being under 60 seconds in 3&K, but there is also another, much larger bonus that you will get from finishing at 9:59, which is obviously quite risky. The huge levels are part of what makes the game so good/the best, though, because they are quite well-designed. Sonic 2's level design is far too simple and straightforward in comparison, labyrinthian Metropolis aside, but it does have my favourite parallax scrolling ever on Emerald Hill.

1 is weird. I like Marble and Labyrinth more than Spring Yard and Star Light, but I don't really know why. Star Light feels like it's half finished, and I don't mean just the rad under construction thing that it has going on.

CD is even more weird. I like this game a lot and consider it a top 3 Sonic game, but WTF were the people who made this game thinking? Wacky Workbench is the only bad one, but it's not so bad when you know what to do. The other levels are just... strange. It's like a 3-year-old was given Sonic 1 with debug mode activated and put in charge of level design, so you get insane amounts of springs or objects all over the place in odd locations. Mania took a lot of inspiration from CD's level design and combined it with the hugeness of 3&K, but they also cleaned up the level design a lot compared to how it is in CD.

Anyway, yeah, check out A.I.R. and stuff. It fixes some stuff that I wish it didn't fix, like visiting Knuckles at the end of Angel Island Act 2, but it's otherwise pretty much a perfect version of the game.
XoPachi wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:52 am Yeah, I didn't like Sonic 3.
The movie, right, and not the game, I'm guessing. I... kind of agree, I guess? I'd have to watch it again, which I am considering doing. I've only seen each one a single time, but I feel like I enjoyed the second one the most. The third film is apparently somehow the highest-rated game movie ever made. That's not exactly a high bar to clear, and I don't trust "professional" critics to actually critique anything, but that's how it is as of now.

I might go to Tsutaya and rent the first two Blu-rays to watch them again and then go see the third one in the theater again. It's not like I really have much else better to do these days. Except finishing Same! Same! Same! and Tatsujin and Daifukkatsu and Tatsujin Ou, but...
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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Oh the movie, of course. Sonic 3 the game is unstoppable.
I didn't like the movie. But I wasn't expecting to like it because I didn't like the first two. And no, I don't care that it's not accurate to the games they loosely adapt.
I'm not going to go on some big tirade about an obvious kid's tie-in. But they just kind of do everything I didn't like about late 2010's superhero stuff. I mainly couldn't stand how the acting felt like everyone was trying to hold back a joke. Or when it didn't seem like they were holding back a joke, they actually did turn a scene into a joke when it shouldn't be. I also don't think Jim Carrey is funny in this movie. I like the first one the least, but I found him the best in that.

Shadow was just kind of boring. The fight between him and Sonic was kind of nice I guess, but I've seen exactly fights like that and done better in the last 10 years so I wasn't like YOOOOO DAS HYPE!!!
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Steven »

I have never thought that Jim Carrey is funny at all. I unfortunately saw a few of his things in the 90s and immediately disliked them, and I was pretty disappointed when they cast him in these films because I was expecting the sort of awful, not funny juvenile "humour" that I associate with Carrey and that's exactly what happened. I genuinely feel that all of these Sonic movies would have been much better if they'd gotten someone else instead.

But again, who knows. I don't know anything about films or TV or whatever because I almost never watch any of that stuff unless it's Star Trek or... well, that's about it. Maybe this Carrey stuff is what people who are not me find amusing, although I am not sure how or why they'd do so.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by To Far Away Times »

Jim Carey had a period in the 90's where he was probably the biggest movie star on the planet.
Spoiler
Image

Image
Eight year old me thought this movie was mankind's crowning achievement.

I still think it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by Sima Tuna »

The only Jim Carey movie I like is The Mask. I think Jim Carey's style of comedy fits perfectly with that film's overall premise and the "Mask" character. I otherwise find Jim Carey pretty intolerable.

But there is no subject more up for personal preference than what a person individually finds humorous.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

Post by XoPachi »

It's really crazy how much better SuperStars is in time trials. I've returned to it to set some times. The level design isn't as good as Mania which I also returned to. There's certainly a lot more watching Sonic run than making him run. But for the most part, it's pretty decent fun still.
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Re: R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

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The level design of Superstars is weird. Bridge Hill is actually pretty great! Then there's the rest of the game. It's usually never outright bad, but it's largely content with being okay or passable at best. Sky Temple is probably one of the better ones, but it's one of those strange single Act ones. I wish there were more Knuckles-only paths, which even Mania didn't really do that much outside of Mirage Saloon.

I always forget about time trials. I don't even know where the option for that is for this game. I've been considering revisiting it and possibly reevaluating it, so maybe I'll try it this way next time.
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