What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[BIL]

And just like that, FUCK Returnal.

Never played, great post though

[ryu]

Returnal. Damn this is good shit. It's a 3PS rogulike with acdecent difficulty level and butter-smooth control. I'm going to enjoy this.

And just like that, FUCK Returnal.

Hahaha. Did you try to platinum the game? I just gave up on completing the archives, it's a waste of time.

[Sanguis]

Returnal was really enjoyable for the first 30 hours for me. Then I couldn't bear it anymore. I found the Sisyphus Tower to be particularly bad.
But for a 3D game that's an uncommonly good one.

[Sumez]

After some talk on discord about Nightdive's ports the other day I decided to pop in my copy of Quake on Switch that I had lying around but didn't take the time to play yet.

And MAN... Not only is Quake every bit as engrossing as I remember it, this port is the best it has ever felt. The controls are perfectly tuned to playing with a controller, and everything is super fast and smooth at 60fps as you'd expect. But in general there's just a special feel to it that feels unlike most other FPS games, ever. Dusk was fun, but it really has nothing on this. I just wanted to check out the first two stages, but I couldn't stop playing. It's so god damn addictive. Great game, great port.
And, humorously, I just realised that this might actually be the first time I'm actually playing the game with the music on - for reasons which anyone else my age will probably realise. Funny considering the NIN relation was kind of a big brand for the game at the time, and honestly the soundtrack kinda rocks.

[BIL]

And MAN... Not only is Quake every bit as engrossing as I remember it, this port is the best it has ever felt. The controls are perfectly tuned to playing with a controller, and everything is super fast and smooth at 60fps as you'd expect. But in general there's just a special feel to it that feels unlike most other FPS games, ever. I just wanted to check out the first two stages, but I couldn't stop playing. It's so god damn addictive. Great game, great port.

Their Quake II port is superb, too. ^__^ Came outta nowhere this time last year. I'm not as read up on their DOOM trilogy, dunno how the XTREEM h4rdcor3 regard it, but it played a damn fine game of Nightmare. Which I'm normally not that big on, preferring UV+Fast, but it was just such a wild trip playing PC-quality DOOM on my arcade box.

They even have full KBM support, at least on PS4/PS5. Arcade stick and KBM hooked up to the same box for arcade-perfect & PC-perfect ports. I'll never not get a kick out of that, having been a perennially-frustrated 90s console kid (32X DOOM 3; and Zero Tolerance >w<) until my first paycheck, which I instantly wiped out on a decent rig for Hexen II.

Also, N64 Quake II on KBM. Always liked it, I think it shines as a third Mission Pack nowadays.

[Sumez]

I heard great stuff about the Quake 2 port as well, and I was close to grabbing it when I realised it's Quake 1 I wanted.
2 was never able to really get its clutches in me the same way. Quite the opposite in fact - I've played the first few sections many many times in the past, but I was never able to maintain my attention on playing further than that. Compared to Quake 1 where playing just one stage makes it difficult to not play the next immediately after.

But I dunno. Maybe the Nightdive port could change that, if they managed to make it feel just as smooth.

[BIL]

Oh yeah, same; Quake 1 is the stronger game by far, with faster-paced yet frequently more intricate stage designs, and a famously unlimited potential for violently expressive movement.

It's kinda funny looking back at the shellacking it took from games magazines - too brown! no story! - vs Duke3D and BLOOD's solo games. And those are both spectacular experiences, and legitimately strong FPSs, too. And id really did their game no favours on the aesthetic front, with the willfully vague cod-Lovecraftian angle. But I think it's actually worked in its favour, nowadays... it's just utter distilled technical violence, immortal like ROBOTRON.

Quake II was always more about recapturing the consistent atmosphere of DOOM's first three eps, right down to the more gravity-bound action and grimly conservative industrial setting. (...so maybe just DOOM's first two eps, haha) It does have some clever secret designs, and some quality gunplay - the basic troops are zombieman-good popcorn, and demolishing larger enemies with your heavy weapons before they can start their bullshit is always cathartic. Super Shotgun is one of the all-time great Big Metal Dicks, its god-hammering, chestplate-caving power rivalled only by its obscene bulk!

It's just further along the scale from Quake's unbridled rocketjumping joie de vivre to DOOM 3; a mood piece I enjoyed at the time, at least until the story jumped the shark, but never particularly want to replay nowadays.

[m.sniffles.esq]

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

Not to totally derail things, but now that I'm away from music for an evening, I can actually speak about music

The Police were undeniable one of those 'before and after' delineation lines. When you have Jimmy Page suddenly playing clean with a ton of chorus, you know a mark was made. When you have the Rush guy (his name escapes me) suddenly using lots of small toms. small cymbals, and playing with tons of right-hand triplets. You know a mark was made.

But about Copeland as and individual player that I point out if needed, is listen to how he uses his right-hand as a conductor's baton (this is true of Phil Collins too, except with his left)--but most importantly--listen to what he DOESN'T play. In fact, there are several hits where he is making life harder on himself by withholding notes, but knows it's more effective to do so (Spirits in the Material World comes to mind)

(I often use him as an example if a drummer is trying to do way too much, and be way too dazzling, and things just start sounding like a mess, or band trying to play along to a drummer that's taking a solo)

[XoPachi]

NightDive is the M2 of FPS's.
The Quake and Turok ports really are some next level work.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

But I dunno. Maybe the Nightdive port could change that, if they managed to make it feel just as smooth.

It'll never happen, not in a million years. It sounds like what you want is a remake that changes Q2's feel, not a port. But Q2 was designed to feel very different from Q1; it's no surprise that not all Q1 vets got on with Q2 for that reason.

Q2's a fine game. Its pacing and movement aren't as frantic as Q1 gets, where knights rush at you, and Shamblers and Vores present fast moving, unbelievably scary immediate threats. The "heavy" enemies in Q2 never quite rise to their level of hitscan/homing bullshit, and the ability to carry Invulnerability and Quad as items you can use whenever also significantly allows you to break things more than having to memorize where in a level you're best off using a Quad Damage. It's a slower paced game, with more deliberate setpieces than Q1, but it wasn't as much of an adjustment for me as I generally played Q1 slower and more conservatively anyways.

You're also far, far more durable and carrying way more ammo than in Q1 by the end of it. Having cells and an active Power Armor makes you nigh-impossible to kill, and also keeps your physical armor more durable for longer. It's much easier, less tense game by the end of it, and you can actually rush through it fairly aggressively when you know what instant kill traps to look out for!

By the end of it it's a far less tense, difficult game than Q1 is. It's a fun experience one man-army'ing your way through the Strogg, but it's a far different vibe to the horrific and tense later levels in Q1 where you're always struggling with resources and never given an opportunity to feel comfortable and safe. Q1 is closer in feel to something like Doom 64 than it is to the far more generous Q2 I think.

I've played a ton of Q2 on the CoopOrDie server which adds more enemies and features permadeath, so you have to know the route (and use invuln + rocket jump if you fall in lava, hahah) well to succeed. That spices things up nicely if Q2's easier pace isn't clicking for you. Also note there's the Nightmare difficulty you can enable, which requires using the console to do so.

[Air Master Burst]

I always thought Mad Stalker (mostly familiar with its PCE ver) handled like a single-plane Guardian Heroes or Panzer Bandit, playing it some years after those games.

Wait, is the PCE version actually worth playing? The PS1 port didn't really feel that close to Panzer Bandit.

[BIL]

I always thought Mad Stalker (mostly familiar with its PCE ver) handled like a single-plane Guardian Heroes or Panzer Bandit, playing it some years after those games.

Wait, is the PCE version actually worth playing? The PS1 port didn't really feel that close to Panzer Bandit.

I like it a fair bit; spirited example of the vanishingly rare sidescrolling brawler. There's the Stalker collective, TNWA/OA, and that's about it, AFAIK? I wouldn't count Capcom's Mutant Apocalypse and War Of The Gems; cool games, but nearer to action/platformers with beater traits, imo. I've never played the earlier X68000 / FMT versions, and only put a few hours on the PS1 game, which AFAIK is more of an expanded remake than a port. Rainy day pickup, I just dig Fill-In's style.

Very much the ground floor of what Imaizumi would later achieve in Panzer Bandit, though. Has the nice sharp combos - jab cancelling off slidekick into a bitchslap wallbounce, capped by a hearty magdump and/or firebomb instantly recalled my Full Metal Merc homie von PB - but with Stalker lacking the masterful crowd pressure of TNWA, Bandit really benefits from its upped enemy numbers. I find GH a bit overkill in comparison to Stalker's narrow focus and Bandit's judicious expansion... spectacular diversion, at least. The bone-juddering hitstop on Gold Skelten's overhand CHAWP occupies the same rarefied space as SamSho's beefiest cleaves. Biggest complaint is the unskippables, wtf?

[ryu]

Returnal was really enjoyable for the first 30 hours for me. Then I couldn't bear it anymore. I found the Sisyphus Tower to be particularly bad.
But for a 3D game that's an uncommonly good one.

I thought the tower was fine and enjoyed its challenge. The game had me hooked until the end and I had to force myself to quit because I didn't have time to grind for the remaining trophies. It does get repetitious eventually though, unless you start imposing challenges on yourself. Something I might do with Returnal sometime in the future.

What ruined the game for you 30hours in?

[Air Master Burst]

I like it a fair bit; spirited example of the vanishingly rare sidescrolling brawler. There's the Stalker collective, TNWA/OA, and that's about it, AFAIK? I wouldn't count Capcom's Mutant Apocalypse and War Of The Gems; cool games, but nearer to action/platformers with beater traits, imo.

There's stuff like Comix Zone, Viewtiful Joe, Vanillaware's Muramasa (super underrated title), the aforementioned Spyro Eternal Night GBA, and probably a bunch more I'm forgetting off top. Maybe Slave Zero X?

Also, it turns out the PS1 version of Mad Stalker is universally derided as terrible, so I feel the need to give a better version a proper go. Sounds promising!

[BIL]

I always forget Comix Zone lmao 3; Must be my lifelong... NIHO-CHAUVINISM (■｀w´■)

Grappling is the critical element in this microsubgenre, imo. Which is a little suspect, admittedly, as some archetypal beltscrollers don't have grapples, like Datsugoku. Stalker, TNWO/A and CZ all have nice scruffs, bapbapbap. Guarding a close second, but ofc plenty of conventional sidescrollers have shields, etc.

Ah yes, Slave Zero X! I thought that looked fuckin rad, and decidedly Stalkeresque. Loved the brutally sleek player mech design.

[To Far Away Times]

I really cannot get over how great the animation and spritework is in Minish Cap.

This is seriously stunning. The fuax light sources, the perspective work, the detail in the animations. This is seriously impressive stuff.

[Air Master Burst]

I always forget Comix Zone lmao 3; Must be my lifelong... NIHO-CHAUVINISM (■｀w´■)

Grappling is the critical element in this microsubgenre, imo. Which is a little suspect, admittedly, as some archetypal beltscrollers don't have grapples, like Datsugoku. Stalker, TNWO/A and CZ all have nice scruffs, bapbapbap. Guarding a close second, but ofc plenty of conventional sidescrollers have shields, etc.

Ah yes, Slave Zero X! I thought that looked fuckin rad, and decidedly Stalkeresque. Loved the brutally sleek player mech design.

Comix Zone actually handles shockingly well for a western title, and it's easily one of the best-looking games on the Genesis. That console actually had a surprising amount of competent western support with shit like Ecco, Shadowrun, and Earthworm Jim; although very little of it was hardcore action. Mostly just Comix Zone and Batman & Robin, though I'm probably forgetting something.

I'm not sure I agree on grappling being a requirement, although it certainly helps. Blocking is certainly not, mostly because I have no patience for such cowardice.

[BIL]

Ecco

Legit classic survival horror. Nails its fundamentals of claustrophobia and encroaching threat like few games can. Better camera than most, too! As memorably surreal as it becomes, it's also a classic exercise in primal fear and naturalistic menace.

although very little of it was hardcore action. Mostly just Comix Zone and Batman & Robin, though I'm probably forgetting something.

Sub-Terrania is badass. I rank that one with Toyota-sama's Ex-Ranza in my Inertia Done Rite file. I know there's quite the heritage of similar games for European PCs, but I just never encountered 'em, being a NES/Genesis kid on the other side of the pond. Exceptionally fine ambassador.

Blocking is certainly not, mostly because I have no patience for such cowardice.

That's why you give the enemies guard-breaking grapples to punish turtlers. Not that I care what turtlers get up to. Their runs look bad, which is punishment enough!

Also why TNWA remains the sidescrolling brawler par excellence: the dynamics. You're gonna get jabbed at some point in TNWA, by one enemy or potentially several, because they're beltscroller-aggressive in a game with no belt whatsoever. If you're close enough, you can revenge-scruff 'em, which opens many possibilities. Turn 'em into a bludgeon, flattening the crowd, or chuck 'em aside to clear your six and set up a Super Chombo, or execute 'em with a hard slap, using its i-frames to slip reprisal. Aggression is good! Tactical aggression is even better!



But if they've caught you at optimal range, you're getting put on your ass sans meter, once that 3-hit budget is done. Or instantly, if you were crouching. Like a weenie! (ducking blowaway roundhouses on read isn't weenie, that's just good play - also, y helo thar kneecap ) Happily, unlike games with zero defense or footwork, which ultimately possess as much martial physicality as a rousing session of Hungry Hungry Hippos, you have a split-second to get your mitts up and teach this prick some manners!



1) Wasn't feeling so fresh after the CROSS COUNTER! 2) Your numbers are a weakness!

There's also times when, because this is 110% brawler, and you are ruthlessly outnumbered, some sneaky fucker will be exceptionally rude! Again, get your mitts up and keep your meter. Don't get laid out! You'll die fast eating that kind of head trauma. Much like IRL!

> I've just bitch-slapped an exceptionally annoying prick! But now, his BIG BUFF BFF has me FOOKIN DEAD 2 RIGHTS M8!



> Good job I can fuckin block! AND got them reflexes + technical insights + forward planning!

Blocking alone will not save your ass! Quite a bit packed into that split-second.

1) Held [attack] as the flurry ended, to enter [guard] on the next active frame and block the Shinobu's headbutt, while retreating out of his grapple and overhead ranges. Why not standing guard, to insure against a potential overhead? Well...

2) Crouched while retreating, in case that Katana went for her ankle slice. Would've broken my standing guard, and gotten me pasted by the Shinobu's attack of choice. She instead escaped my reach, but I don't gamble, and this ain't a TAS, kids.

3) Finally backflipped away for a breather, keeping [guard] held in the event of a distance-triggered super stomp from the Shinobu. It tracks, and is quick enough to beat any counterattack I might attempt on landing, short of a bomb. Which I don't currently have.

...and you can see how, while successfully blocked, the brutal one-shot knockdown still visibly drives Kunoichi back; altering the path of her backflip mid-execution, with a sharp *kting* of steel-on-steel. Vivid aesthetic, and a real concern, when something is on your six you don't want to land near to.

Fuckin quality. Natsume use guarding as a means to heighten aggression and incentive, not dampen them.

If a sidescrolling brawler has no guarding or sidestep mechanics, and no grappling on top of that, I am guessing it either A) isn't a very good brawler, or B) is something I'd put nearer conventionally contact-averse scrolling action, ala Spartan X.

[Sanguis]

I thought the tower was fine and enjoyed its challenge. The game had me hooked until the end and I had to force myself to quit because I didn't have time to grind for the remaining trophies. It does get repetitious eventually though, unless you start imposing challenges on yourself. Something I might do with Returnal sometime in the future.

What ruined the game for you 30hours in?

Every time, around 45 min inside the tower, I got tired/bored and lost all attention. I wish it was made of 30 min subsections.
As for the main game, I didn't find it worth replaying. But now it's been a year, the game might feel fresh again.

[Air Master Burst]

If a sidescrolling brawler has no guarding or sidestep mechanics, and no grappling on top of that, I am guessing it either A) isn't a very good brawler, or B) is something I'd put nearer conventionally contact-averse scrolling action, ala Spartan X.

As long as the attacks have enough variety in mobility and i-frames you shouldn't strictly need either, but grapples are always welcome, and I do love a good sidestep. My only real gripe with requiring grapples is that it would disqualify obvious choices like Comix Zone (which does let you block) and Viewtiful Joe (truly amazing dodge).

Part of my problem with blocking is most games don't have a dedicated button, so you're stuck with SF push blocking. That's great in a 1v1 fighter but is super annoying against crowds. Even worse if it's SF3 style parrying.

The real question is whether to count i-frame dodge rolls. That would open things up a bit for sure, and while I'm entirely against them on the belt, single plane action is a different beast. Maybe that's a different subgenre altogether, though, and I just really love Muramasa.

[BIL]

Comix Zone has grabs IIRC? I distinctly recall scruffing a rude fucker and kicking him through scenery. EDIT: yep there we go. Brutally succinct! My copy's JP and I regrettably cannot read, so I headcanoned it buddy knows his Thai boxing. Much like the nameless renegade badman of Crime Fighters, whose game might be kinda jank, but god damn does he bring the ruthlessly practical elbow/knee strikes to the crims' hellnoparts.

Throw some bows, then STOMP EM IN THE NUTS (｀w´メ) (◎w◎;)

KOF96-styled dodge rolls count as a footwork option, imo. Not really, but you know... something besides outright retreat from striking range. I think either those, the classic KOF94 sidestep, or guarding are viable choices. In Spartan, Green Beret, Rygar et al, you typically don't want to get closer to enemies than necessary, even in games lacking contact damage. What's the point, when you can do full damage at weapon's length? (unless you get more points for riskier proximity, ala Spartan's punch bonus, ofc ) Where in brawlers, proximity is usually key to doing max damage via combos and/or grabs.



^ Look at that beauty, god damn

Beltscrolling obviously expects you to use the Z-axis to avoid a prompt retaliation, even in games where you actually can guard. But in straight sidescrolling, I think it's fair to give the player some recourse. In the TNWA example above, without a guard option, I'd be forced to eat shit for demolishing that Claw with a calculatedly risky flurry. (executed a moment late, Shinobu would've snuffed me mid-attack, and the little fucker would've escaped scot-free; 90% of flurry's power is in the final hit) Weenies would have a case for corner crouchspam, shamefur! Sh... SHAMEFUR DISPRAY! I guess the timeout might kill 'em, but so utterly bereft of fighting spirit, are they truly even alive?

A sidestep or side-switch would work just as well, though the feel and execution would ofc vary. Actually, that'd be a good alternate character, ala Kamaitachi lacking a restraining hold. And Ninja lacking a jump!

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I replayed Silent Hill again because I was chatting with a friend who was never aware of the first person view you can unlock or the extra option menu at all (always run and reverse backwards turn controls are best! you're a person, not a damn car). Did it so I could send him a savefile with it unlocked, and I hadn't replayed it in a while. Gave Hard mode a spin, it was pretty fun, unlike later games the Hard mode still gives tons of ammo even on 1x bullet adjust, it's only after the Hospital that you have to go easy on bullets and melee nurses or risk running out.

My health was looking a bit dire, I took way too many hits getting lost and running into those half invisible kids, also discovered sidestepping fails to dodge the final boss's shots so I burned all but two medkits by the end of it. O_o

[BIL]

Self View is the fuckin bomb. Playing that made me realise, as much of a hardware quantum leap as SH2/3/4 enjoyed, SH1 was always the gold standard they had to meet. Intense detailing over every square inch of that game.

Dunno how practical it'd have been as the default mode... it's fun to think about actually. I'm sure it'd be a pain in the ass, as opposed to the intriguing Director's Cut it plays like when you know the ropes. But I wonder if an already fearsome horror reputation would be that much moreso. Even knowing the game back to front, I've found that mode unnerving at times.

Mostly in the ambience, which for all Yamaoka's goofy traits, he did know how to do. SH3 has some bloodcurdling soundscapes at points, thinking of the Hilltop Centre, both sides. Fond memory of demoing for my horror-loving uncle to a hushed "Jesus fuck man!" at the indescribably slobbering, weeping din suppurating up from the soundbar as a dingy office came into view, something moving around in the blind corner. Faaack I always want to revisit these when they come up.

That shitbird Yamaoka is incidentally flying again, with SH2 remake, which I would normally not look twice at, but Masahiro Ito has sounded so happy to be working on it, so I can't punt it just yet. Might even give it a go. Also Shadows Of The Damned remaster. Never played it BITD, and never really knew what to make of its buzz. IIRC it involved Mikami and Suda51, but only peripherally? Something like that. I should probably just play The Evil Within once it gets a bit darker, huh.

[ryu]

I replayed Silent Hill again because I was chatting with a friend who was never aware of the first person view you can unlock

There's a first person mode in Silent Hill? I never knew that! And I beat the game like at least 5 times.

... Or maybe I knew, but just dismissed it because I didn't see a reason to play in it back then.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Yeah, most of the SH games have an Extra Options menu, strangely tucked away in the normal options screen by pressing one of the L or R buttons when you're there. In addition to some handy control options like always run, and making moving backwards in SH1 + pressing left/right behave like a typical 3rd person game, there's also a couple unlockable options, namely the 1st person view in SH1, and the option in most games to do bullet adjust and disable the noise filter effect.

Bullet adjust is a must for several of the games' harder extra modes, SH3 in particular. It adds a multiplier to every box of ammo you get, so you can gun down things like Air Screamers and actually explore properly without feeling like all fights have to be melee or every outdoor encounter being a waste of bullets. You get an extra multiplier each time you beat the game, so eventually you can do stuff like play SH3's extreme difficulty modes with x5 bullet pickups (get to use the SMG for a while!).

Dunno how practical it'd have been as the default mode... it's fun to think about actually.

With a few tweaks I think a first person mode would work. Or a close to the character third person closer to RE4 perhaps, zooms out when you need to break from grabs, use the right stick to adjust the camera up to down to look around as needed at details. This was one thing I liked about SH Homecoming despite its many shortcomings, especially in the plot. Its closer perspective to the character made it easier to see small details on objects.

There's some first person PS1 games that give me similar creepy, tense vibes, namely Shadow Tower. Not true horror per se, but I can imagine them hitting similar notes. The RE Gun Survivor game also showcased first person horror. It's not well regarded because the lightgun mechanics are iffy especially if you're using a normal controller, but it shows the possibilities there.

[Air Master Burst]

First-person survival horror has traditionally been PC territory, but most people didn't really give a shit until Amnesia hit.

Nosferatu: Wrath of Malachi, Clive Barker's Undying, CoC: Dark Corners of the Earth, and NecroVision are all worth a look if you want some classic first person survival horror. The first Condemned probably belongs on that list too.

ETA: actually, I don't know what the fuck NecroVision would be classified as, but it's fucking rad.

[To Far Away Times]

Amnesia was a game changer for me.

Spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

There's a part where you enter a normal looking long hallway. The lights go out and when they come back on you're up to your knees in water. That's kinda weird. Then you hear a terrifying roar and suddenly splashes that look like they are coming from invisible footsteps are running towards you.

It's one of the greatest scenes I've ever seen in a game. Game was a 10/10 for that scene alone.

[Marc]

Dusk seems neat. Great atmosphere, silky smooth, decent weapons, nice, concise levels. Impressed so far.

How. How the FUCK did I forget, even for a moment (around ten years), that Mr Driller is simply every single thing that is joyful and fun about gaming, condensed into a huge, shit-eating-grin sugar rush? I've always thought I could never, in no way, do the 'all time top ten' thing as I veer all over the place, but this and Lumines are two guaranteed spots.

Not feeling Ninja Kids. Floaty, no real impact, all a bit insubstantial for me.

The Returnal post.... I need a keyboard, not my phone, and a fucking big rant. Short: hard done wrong.

[Sima Tuna]

Mr. Driller is beautiful. I bought Drill Land hoping for more of the same but I don't think it's quite as great as the original.

[XoPachi]

Has anyone played AstroBot yet? The reception is nothing short of shockingly explosive right now.

I don't mean to imply anything about the game. It's just when a game is this lauded by reviewers and big YouTubers so rapidly, I tend to side eye it even if it appeals to me. This deluge of 10/10's tells me the game was braindead easy enough for them to get all of these superlative laden, non-critical fluff pieces out on time.

I can't take the commentary seriously.