R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

[BrianC]

Doom and Doom II just got delisted the other day too. Companies love taking away the ability to buy something and replacing it with a worse and more expensive version of the same thing. It seems that at least Doom and Doom II were replaced by better versions, although I don't know the specifics, and that original Generations will awkwardly live on, even if it's as part of a bundle of games that may or may not be worth buying just to get Generations for those that don't already have it.

At least with Doom and Doom II they were upgraded for free if you already had previous versions (though I'm not sure if that applies to other regions than the US). The Switch and PS4/PS5 updates were free too, PS4 even upgraded to PS5 for free. Especially crazy for the Steam versions which I had since they were based on the Doom95 frontend, IIRC.

[Lemnear]

The last Sonic i played was Sonic Ultimate Bundle (Forces+Team Racing+Mania)
Which is the best modern Sonic at the moment between Frontier, Colors and Superstars?
Or is it better to wait for Generations x Shadow?

And while we're at it, the best Super Monkey Ball between Blitz HD and Mania?

[null1024]

Colors is arguably the best of the lot, but it's a very flawed game. I'm not big on Frontiers personally, but you might like it.
Banana Mania is the better one, but it's just SMB Deluxe with worse handling. Not that bad, but not that good.

[XoPachi]

I don't know what we're considering Modern in here, but if we mean the last 20 years, I'd say Rush Adventure.
As far as what's easiest to get, I put Generations at the top. If you've never played it and really want to, I honestly don't even know if I should tell you to get it. SxS is around the corner and looks to be the same thing with added content sure, but Sega's remaster/porting track record with Sonic has been awful lately. And who knows what they really changed under the hood. It could be more different, for the worse. It'll also be more expensive than even the original release was in 2011.

[Steven]

Of those three games, Colors >>>>>> Frontiers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Superstars

Frontiers might look like it's made with generic, soulless Unreal Engine assets that have no place in a Sonic game, but it's one of the least bad 3D Sonic games. The only ones that I'd put above it are Colors, Generations, R, and Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing.

I actually played Superstars again for about 30 minutes two days ago. It's... not very good at anything after Bridge Island. It's not super terrible at anything either, but it's certainly a very dull game for the most part. I did find another new way to go out of bounds and die, though, so at least there was that.

[Lander]

I never quite caught the hype for Colors. The core is strong, but the wisp gimmickry and excess of equally widgety - or simply bland - 2D bits, brings it down significantly.
Generations takes that foundation and gives it much better content to work with, so I'd wait for SxS, or just grab the original for cheap.

You could fill the interim with some SRB2 if you've not tried it before - it's very different as 3D sonic goes, but also quite polished at this point. And you can't say fairer than free!

[Lemnear]

Colors is arguably the best of the lot, but it's a very flawed game. I'm not big on Frontiers personally, but you might like it.
Banana Mania is the better one, but it's just SMB Deluxe with worse handling. Not that bad, but not that good.

Cool! Sonic Colors and Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania are the only ones discounted

I don't know what we're considering Modern in here, but if we mean the last 20 years, I'd say Rush Adventure.
As far as what's easiest to get, I put Generations at the top. If you've never played it and really want to, I honestly don't even know if I should tell you to get it. SxS is around the corner and looks to be the same thing with added content sure, but Sega's remaster/porting track record with Sonic has been awful lately. And who knows what they really changed under the hood. It could be more different, for the worse. It'll also be more expensive than even the original release was in 2011.

I already have the limited edition collector's edition of Sonic Generations (the 20th Anniversary). But I no longer have the PS3, my ex-best friend stole it from me..

Of those three games, Colors >>>>>> Frontiers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Superstars

Frontiers might look like it's made with generic, soulless Unreal Engine assets that have no place in a Sonic game, but it's one of the least bad 3D Sonic games. The only ones that I'd put above it are Colors, Generations, R, and Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing.

I actually played Superstars again for about 30 minutes two days ago. It's... not very good at anything after Bridge Island. It's not super terrible at anything either, but it's certainly a very dull game for the most part. I did find another new way to go out of bounds and die, though, so at least there was that.

Frontiers seems like something that's good on paper but terrible in practice.
Strange for Superstars because when you look at it it seems like any 2D Super Mario (with 3D graphics), except that Mario gets 90+ at Metacritic every time.

I never quite caught the hype for Colors. The core is strong, but the wisp gimmickry and excess of equally widgety - or simply bland - 2D bits, brings it down significantly.
Generations takes that foundation and gives it much better content to work with, so I'd wait for SxS, or just grab the original for cheap.

You could fill the interim with some SRB2 if you've not tried it before - it's very different as 3D sonic goes, but also quite polished at this point. And you can't say fairer than free!

It's my impression sometimes...it seems less colorful (despite the name ) than a normal Sonic, or rather, it has more neon colors than a normal Sonic...but the OSTs...oh god they're fantastic! I love them!
But everyone talks about it very well mmh

Planet Wisp (Act 1)

[Steven]

Frontiers seems like something that's good on paper but terrible in practice.

I'd say it's the other way around. It's surprisingly not too bad, but its performance and graphics heavily depend on what system you play it on, so if you're not playing on PS5 or Series X, you might want to consider skipping it until you can play it on one of those systems. PC version is theoretically the best but is essentially an online-only game, so that version can go to hell.

Strange for Superstars because when you look at it it seems like any 2D Super Mario (with 3D graphics), except that Mario gets 90+ at Metacritic every time.

Superstars is... not great. The best thing about Superstars is that if you have any hardware that can run Superstars you can play Mania, which is a far superior game in literally every aspect. Mania runs on all of the exact same hardware, is cheaper, has significantly better and more creative stage design, has significantly better gameplay, has way less glitches, has infinitely better music and graphics, and in Mania it's much harder to accidentally go out of bounds and die. It's arguably harder to get crushed by things that shouldn't crush you in Mania as well, although that might just be due to better stage design and object placement. There are some really stupid places where you can get crushed in Superstars.

It's brutally unfair to compare Superstars to Mania, and yet since Superstars was the next 2D Sonic released after Mania (unless you count The Murder of Sonic, which is also way better than Superstars), Superstars is eternally doomed to be compared to Mania. The ONLY thing that Superstars does better is that it supports 120FPS on PC, and only on PC, but once again it's essentially an online-only game on PC and 120FPS kind of breaks the spin dash and causes it to not work properly. Not sure if they ever fixed that one. There is absolutely no reason for PS5 Superstars to not support 120FPS, but it doesn't. I'm assuming the Xbox Series can do 120FPS in games that support it, but Xbox Series Superstars probably doesn't have support for 120FPS either.

Superstars had some good marketing, and the devs had mostly the right ideas, but they didn't implement them as well as they could have. Bridge Island is actually a really great Zone, but the game immediately starts becoming increasingly worse in every subsequent Zone. By the time you get to the last Act of the game, you're probably going to be sick of the game. I know I was. Don't even mention the true last boss, which is just shit and not fun or interesting at all.

Colors... is weird. It's definitely got some faults and I didn't like it that much until I figured out that the best way to approach the game is to play it for score, at which point it becomes a lot of fun. That sounds weird because scoring systems are usually completely broken in most Sonic games aside from Adventure 2 and Colors, and in this case it makes the game much better.

[Lemnear]

Frontiers seems like something that's good on paper but terrible in practice.

I'd say it's the other way around. It's surprisingly not too bad, but its performance and graphics heavily depend on what system you play it on, so if you're not playing on PS5 or Series X, you might want to consider skipping it until you can play it on one of those systems. PC version is theoretically the best but is essentially an online-only game, so that version can go to hell.

Strange for Superstars because when you look at it it seems like any 2D Super Mario (with 3D graphics), except that Mario gets 90+ at Metacritic every time.

Superstars is... not great. The best thing about Superstars is that if you have any hardware that can run Superstars you can play Mania, which is a far superior game in literally every aspect. Mania runs on all of the exact same hardware, is cheaper, has significantly better and more creative stage design, has significantly better gameplay, has way less glitches, has infinitely better music and graphics, and in Mania it's much harder to accidentally go out of bounds and die. It's arguably harder to get crushed by things that shouldn't crush you in Mania as well, although that might just be due to better stage design and object placement. There are some really stupid places where you can get crushed in Superstars.

It's brutally unfair to compare Superstars to Mania, and yet since Superstars was the next 2D Sonic released after Mania (unless you count The Murder of Sonic, which is also way better than Superstars), Superstars is eternally doomed to be compared to Mania. The ONLY thing that Superstars does better is that it supports 120FPS on PC, and only on PC, but once again it's essentially an online-only game on PC and 120FPS kind of breaks the spin dash. Not sure if they ever fixed that one. There is absolutely no reason for PS5 Superstars to not support 120FPS, but it doesn't. I'm assuming the Xbox Series can do 120FPS in games that support it, but Xbox Series Superstars probably doesn't have support for 120FPS either.

Superstars had some good marketing, and the devs had mostly the right ideas, but they didn't implement them as well as they could have. Bridge Island is actually a really great Zone, but the game immediately starts becoming increasingly worse in every new Zone. By the time you get to the last act of the game, you're probably going to be sick of the game. I know I was. Don't even mention the true last boss, which is just shit and not fun or interesting at all.

Colors... is weird. It's definitely got some faults and I didn't like it that much until I figured out that the best way to approach the game is to play it for score, at which point it becomes a lot of fun. That sounds weird because scoring systems are usually completely broken in most Sonic games aside from Adventure 2 and Colors, and in this case it makes the game much better.

Sonic Mania is included in the Sonic Ultimate Bundle.
Strange to hear that Sonic Colors is to be played for the Score... actually interesting i would say mmh
Unfortunately, "eye-candy" games win me over even if they end up being crap
Maybe it's better to wait for Generation x Shadow, i remember i had the Platinum trophy for that and also for SEGA All-Star Racing Transformed (the best Kart game ever made).

[Steven]

I am still REALLY SERIOUSLY considering taking a trip to Guam just to get a legit US IP address so I can buy the PC version of Transformed without risking getting my Steam account banned. I really REALLY want to play that game, but Sega says that you are not allowed to buy it in Japan for some reason. Region locking is so stupid...

Anyway yeah, play Colors for score. It's fun and cool. I'm also going to argue that Colors 2D sections are also much better than Generations old Sonic 2D sections due to better controls, but the 3D sections of Generations are the real reason to buy the game because they are excellent... by 3D Sonic standards, anyway.

[Lemnear]

I am still REALLY SERIOUSLY considering taking a trip to Guam just to get a legit US IP address so I can buy the PC version of Transformed without risking getting my Steam account banned. I really REALLY want to play that game, but Sega says that you are not allowed to buy it in Japan for some reason. Region locking is so stupid...

Anyway yeah, play Colors for score. It's fun and cool.

A Japanese game that cannot be purchased in Japan? WTF?

[Steven]

It happens all the time. Sega is the primary culprit. Sounds stupid, and it is, but it's true. There's a Japanese word that specifically refers to this: おま国

[Sima Tuna]

As far as best modern sonics go, it's Mania or nothing for me. For me to find another Sonic game I do like, I'd have to go back to the GBA/DS era. Sonic Advance 1, 2, 3, Sonic Battle and Sonic Rush.

I played Generations because everyone said it was good, back in the xbox 360 days. I don't like it. I do not like boost gameplay for 3d sonic and the 2d sections were garbage compared to 2d gameplay from the classic series and from Mania. Generations was the definition of a 6 out of 10 for me, and I'm not surprised people jumped on it... Sonic games suffer the curse of low expectations at this point, even though some people like to claim that Sonic fans are too demanding. I wouldn't consider myself a Sonic "fan" but all I've ever (((demanded))) from them is a fun game to play. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are jank as hell, but I can have some fun falling through the floor while running through Sonic and Shadow levels.

Hell, if '06 wasn't such a buggy pile of shit and also removed all of Silver's gameplay, it could have been an ok game.

I wonder if anyone in this thread has played the Pac-Man World games? As far as 3d Sonic alternatives go, it's not the exact same of course, but they might be worth looking at. You get a ghetto version of spindash.

[XoPachi]

DS and Advance Sonic is so good dude. It's like stuffing your face at an amazing restaurant.
And Pac World 2 is goated. Love that damn game.

[Steven]

Advance 2 = Grinding Rails & Death Pits: The Game & Knuckles. It's terrible. I'd rather subject myself to to the torture of Adventure 2, Unleashed night levels, 06, or Forces again than replay Advance 2. Its graphics and art direction are excellent, however. Need to play 1 and 3 still. I checked them out a few years ago for a few minutes each when I got my GBA Everdrive, but quickly moved on to Japanese Metroid Fusion hard mode (hard mode 1% is way easier than people make it out to be. Zero Mission hard 15% is considerably more difficult) instead. 3 seemed kind of really odd for some reason. Maybe I should go play them soon.

As a random aside, I do actually have Pocket Adventure, but no Neo Geo Pocket Color to play it on. Probably should go buy one, although I wouldn't be surprised if the recent deluge of foreign tourists has caused stock to vanish and prices to skyrocket.

Pac-Man World and its sequel are pretty cool if you're into 3D platformers, and the recent remake of the first one is quite well-made, so I hope they do the same for 2. I only learned several years ago that there was a Pac-Man World 3! It looks like it didn't do so well...

[null1024]

Advance 1 is a [mostly] rock solid game. It just kinda seems... boring? It feels like Sonic 2.5 in just about every way, a ton of the levels are some variation on a Sonic 2 level theme, and the stage design is actually very reasonable, at least until the end [Cosmic Angel is kind of awful, all manner of blind spikes and shit to run into]. The music is so... bleh. The graphics are not bad. The handling feels quite close to the Genesis games with one mildly annoying exception -- when you fall from a great height, you often kind of just stop when you land. It's generally less glitchy than the Genesis games too, no weird zips or anything. Boss design is okay [by Sonic standards, since Sonic bosses are trash].

I think Advance 2 is fun despite its myriad flaws. Stage design is definitely rough [a significant number of stages basically funnel you into one do-or-die spot that you have to memorize and are nearly all gigantic downhill slaloms with like three exceptions in the whole game], it's just this crazy downhill jam with all this shit to get through. R-tricks are a great idea that I'm glad persisted through the handheld games for a while. Bosses are terribly annoying if you aren't Sonic [double-tap to air dash, hit it easily instead of slowly running up like the others] or Cream [press B until the boss dies, including the final boss].
Getting the Emeralds is fucking awful -- the Special Stages aren't that much trouble, but getting in it is.
The music is fantastic, the art is fantastic. Sonic and co handle fine enough -- it's definitely changed from Advance 1, but not a ton.
If I'm honest, Sonic Rush does most of the things Advance 2 wanted to do but better in terms of level layouts. Unfortunately, Rush very literally has Sonic 4-tier physics -- boost papers over the issue of Sonic's momentum and slope handling kind of not working, but the game immediately feels abysmal to control whenever you run out.

Advance 3 is kind of trash, but I actually love this game. The handling is screwy, the partner system is nonsense, stage design is what people pretend Advance 2's is [read: lots of bottomless pits everywhere, rather than just the one near the end]. The art design is amazing. The music is fantastic. Using the partner abilities lets you do some absolutely bonkers skips. I don't actually like the overworld map thing but it's cool that they did it. There's so much to like, except the level layouts are made of swiss cheese, they are very fond of pits and I do not like them and I am routinely glad that I can skip so much of them with the partner actions. Just the default Sonic and Tails one that launches you straight up suuuuuper high will get you far.
Chaos Angel 3 is a dumb fucking stage but look at these kick-ass skips.

[Steven]

Yeah, the downhill-ness of Advance 2 is hilarious in a bad way when you see it and then compare all of the maps side by side. Stage design in the game is very poor. There's that one place that's uphill that I forgot the name of, but I think it's the only exception. There's also only water in the first act of the game, which I always found odd, but Sonic & Knuckles just doesn't have water at all, so there was a precedent for weirdness like that already. Don't get me started on getting into the Special Stages... I think I got all of them without checking the locations of the things you have to get online, but I don't remember if I got Amy or not. I think I did, but I can't remember.

Advance 1 is a [mostly] rock solid game. It just kinda seems... boring?

I had that same feeling too during the short time that I played it. It's weird, right? I thought it was just me...

I still want to give it another try eventually whenever I get around to it.

BTW is anyone actually getting the Sonic Generations port? It seems that the drop dash is in it now, which is might help alleviate the general sluggishness of the Act 1s to some extent. It wouldn't be as good of a fix as fixing the controls and physics, or simply removing those parts from the game if they're too lazy to fix them, but it's probably better than nothing. It's really sad that just removing half of the game would make it better, but that's how it is.

[Sima Tuna]

It's really sad that just removing half of the game would make it better, but that's how it is.

Feels like you could apply this sentence to any modern sonic game and be correct.

[Steven]

It's really sad that just removing half of the game would make it better, but that's how it is.

Feels like you could apply this sentence to any modern sonic game and be correct.

You're not wrong lol!

[Air Master Burst]

Sonic Advance 1 is the best of the GBA Sonics, and it's almost a great Sonic game, but those falling-down-a-tube special stages are just so fucking bad I can't.

[Sima Tuna]

Sonic Advance 1 is the best of the GBA Sonics, and it's almost a great Sonic game, but those falling-down-a-tube special stages are just so fucking bad I can't.

Let's not pretend classic sonic has good special stages. Sonic 1's special stages make me physically ill. I can't play them without becoming nauseous and getting a headache in my eyes.

[To Far Away Times]

I'd say Sonic 3's special stages were legitimately good.

[Air Master Burst]

Sonic Advance 1 is the best of the GBA Sonics, and it's almost a great Sonic game, but those falling-down-a-tube special stages are just so fucking bad I can't.

Let's not pretend classic sonic has good special stages. Sonic 1's special stages make me physically ill. I can't play them without becoming nauseous and getting a headache in my eyes.

I enjoy all of the classic Sonic special stages except the stupid bridge from Genesis 3D Blast. Saturn 3D Blast has the best by far.

[ryu]

I was looking forward to SxS Generations. Now that I'm remindd of the Classic stages... not so much anymore. I agree they should just cut that crap. :/

Let's not pretend classic sonic has good special stages. Sonic 1's special stages make me physically ill. I can't play them without becoming nauseous and getting a headache in my eyes.

I really like them. As a kid they were difficult and now fairly managable (some of them even easy). Blue Sphere is also fun and managable. The special stages in any other Sonic game? No thanks.

[orange808]

Ah, Sonic. I've tried so hard to enjoy the little guy. Honestly, Sonic Advance is the only Sonic game I consider essential in my collection.

But, I admit I dislike Sonic. The gameplay isn't my thing. In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design. Good thing that's there. I guess it works. If Sonic just died, the series would have immediately died with him.

[XoPachi]

I don't particularly care for special stages in the series except for Mania's and the Sonic Rush games. I almost like Heroes because that aesthetic is some apex shit. But the janky turning and gravity never wants to work.

[BrianC]

But, I admit I dislike Sonic. The gameplay isn't my thing. In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design. Good thing that's there. I guess it works. If Sonic just died, the series would have immediately died with him.

Have you tried the first GG/SMS game? Less rings come out when you get hit.

[Steven]

In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design.

So just play one of the ROM hacks that removes all rings from the game. Sonic 3 & Knuckles - No Ring Challenge is out there and available, so you get to play the best game in the series with no rings. Works on real hardware, too.

But, I admit I dislike Sonic. The gameplay isn't my thing. In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design. Good thing that's there. I guess it works. If Sonic just died, the series would have immediately died with him.

Have you tried the first GG/SMS game? Less rings come out when you get hit.

I don't think you can actually pick up your dropped rings in that game at all, but it's been a while since I played it last. Might be wrong... let me know if I am because I can't remember and it bothers me! Not at home right now either, so I can't check.

[orange808]

In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design.

So just play one of the ROM hacks that removes all rings from the game. Sonic 3 & Knuckles - No Ring Challenge is out there and available, so you get to play the best game in the series with no rings. Works on real hardware, too.

Why would I play a rom hack to remove one of the things that allows me tolerate the games?

Now, if we could just do something about the Bubsy surprise pit hazards. (Okay. It's not as bad as Bubsy.) I suppose I like Sonic Advance because it doesn't do as much of that rubbish.

I have a complicated relationship with Sonic.

I've also never loved the idea of a game that encourages speed and simultaneosly punishes it. I've just beaten R-Type III again today, so my memorization and reflexes must still be intact. As much as Irem's design decisions could annoy, Sonic Team often manages to bug me even more. I always get the feeling that Sonic is just flipping me the finger.

But, I admit I dislike Sonic. The gameplay isn't my thing. In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design. Good thing that's there. I guess it works. If Sonic just died, the series would have immediately died with him.

Have you tried the first GG/SMS game? Less rings come out when you get hit.

Yeah. I played GG/MS Sonic quite a bit on the go way back when. It just drops one ring. I rather liked that one, because the controls were snappy. A lot of the later games cripple Sonic with frustrating sluggish acceleration.

Anyhow, I haven't skipped any cannon Sonic games that I know of, but Sonic Advance is still the one I go back to.

[Steven]

In my opinion, that infinite health from grabbing the rings over and over is a crutch for poor game design.

So just play one of the ROM hacks that removes all rings from the game. Sonic 3 & Knuckles - No Ring Challenge is out there and available, so you get to play the best game in the series with no rings. Works on real hardware, too.

Why would I play a rom hack to remove one of the things that allows me tolerate the games?

I was under the impression that you hated the ring system, but I seem to have misread... but it's an excuse to play the best 2D platformer that isn't Super Metroid or Sonic Mania again with a slight variation of the normal gameplay, so there you go.

I've also never loved the idea of a game that encourages speed and simultaneosly punishes it.

This might kind of come across as me being an ass, and that certainly is not my intention, so sorry in advance if you feel that it's warranted, but hear me out:

The design philosophy of the Yasuhara-designed games is that you will only be fast if you are good, with sufficient skill being something that you achieve only by replaying the games, and there are interviews with someone (I think it was Naka) where it was explicitly stated that Green Hill Zone was specifically designed to be replayed infinitely for this reason. Inversely, if you are bad, you'll be slow because you suck at the games because you didn't practice. This is not my opinion, but rather what the developers, or at least Yasuhara, wanted. Part of this is understanding path selection (yes, it matters a lot) and the unique physics, neither of which are things that anyone really thinks about for some reason. Notably, Sonic 1, 2, CD, the 2011 remake of CD, 3&K, and Mania all have different physics, so you have to learn each game's unique traits separately, and no, despite what people will incorrectly tell you, Tails and Knuckles do not run or accelerate more slowly than Sonic. The only difference is Knuckles having a lower jump height.

Despite what the marketing shows, speed is not to be given to the player just for the sake of being fast, but is your reward for not being bad, so in that sense it's not really a case of the game design failing the players but instead the players failing to live up to what the game provides them with. This is something that most of the 3D games fail at spectacularly, although you could argue that maintaining your speed in the 3D games, even in the boost games with their dedicated instant go fast buttons, still requires an amount of practice that most people don't put into the games because nobody cares about replaying games anymore and instead people now prefer to move on to the next 100-hour empty open world fetch quest slog.

Coincidentally (or not...?), Sonic games started to become largely terrible immediately after Yasuhara stopped working on them. It's like he was the only person working on Sonic that actually knew what he was doing until the Sonic Mania devs came along. What's (probably) not a coincidence is that the best game in the entire franchise is the only one where he worked not only as game designer but also as director.

So, yes, what I am saying is that you should indeed go (re)play a (good) Sonic game for about 20 hours or so and then you'll see how brilliantly designed that one chosen game actually is... but only if it's one of the good ones.