Prelude to the Apocalypse

[Sengoku Strider]

Did the US Supreme Court just hand Trump a get out of jail free card?

I do not get it. Why are judges throwing away the power of the courts to elevate the office of president effectively above the law? Corruption doesn't make sense as an answer, there's nothing donors or politicians can give them that's more valuable than power. Is this some apocalyptic true believer dominionist thing?

[orange808]

The court's decision not only places the president's actions performing "official" duties above the law, it *also* specifically and absolutely does two more important and chilling things:

First, it is now impossible to use the president's communications (of any kind) while carrying out official duties as evidence in court. The president is on duty all day everyday. It can easily be argued that everything he does is official and part of the job. Given the sparse remaining labor protections, that should even extend to taking a shit. We can be certain that also covers communicating with other people on social media about America. Clearly, interaction with other Americans is supposed to be part of the job. That's off limits in court.

The president has very little private life. It's also important to remember that the Supreme Court already declared that trying to interfere with an election is part of the president's official duties. That's already on the table.

Second, asking about or exploring the president's motives is now explicitly forbidden. So, we can't explore the motives for any official actions in court at all, while trying to establish that an act was purely "personal" and not a "professional" part of the presidential duties. I would like to repeat that interfering with a peaceful transfer of power is now considered part of the executive duties. Prosecution is impossible.

Don't let anyone gaslight you on what the ruling says. The GOP is lying. The bear trap is down. They just need America to take one last step.

If you're not scared, you're stupid.

What the court's motive? They don't want to be judges in a democracy. They are trying to dismantle the system of democracy (itself). They don't want to be judges at all. They really want to remake America without these troublesome votes and elections. Their current positions were never a destination or goal; they took jobs on the court as a means to an end. (Yes. It's a true believer thing.)

Bernie Sanders got too close to the White House. The right is done taking chances with democracy. They can only thank their lucky stars that the Dems forced Hillz onto the ticket. Otherwise, Sanders would have pulled working class votes from the GOP and got into a position of power. The GOP can't continue to gamble that the opposition will always be stupid.

[Air Master Burst]

The obvious and hilarious answer would be for Biden to immediately turn around and order the justices who decided this to be executed.

[AyeYoYoYO]

All they need to do is wheel someone out with actual energy and charisma, because nobody wants to vote for an old loser like the current two. That's it! It's literally all they need to do to win.

Gavin Newsom is right there. He looks the part, probably isn't stupid enough to screw it up, and appears to be playing this just right. Give white america one good look at that smile and haircut and it's game over, especially when his immediate contrasts are Biden and Trump.

IF they install Newsom at the convention, it may net them a handful of centrist soccer mom votes, but there aren’t many of them remaining. And any of them then are even remotely rural or suburban in nature, will be wiped off Newsom’s vote totals in swing states, by the veritable nonstop barrage of campaign ads showing tent cities, children walking to school past syringes, etc. like it or not, it’s reality that in over 40 states, that would wipe Newsom. And whose to say Newsom even wants to have his aspirations crushed, on what appears to be a CERTAIN losing cycle for Dems anyway ?

They literally can’t stick with Biden after that debate, cause those ads will be spectacularly brutal.

Michelle ? Paul Montgomery (Buttgig)? LMMFAO, they might fare well in SF, LA, etc … but would get washed hard in over 40 states.

It’s pretty much an unwinnable election. Even with Shapiro guaranteeing Pennsylvania, etc

[Air Master Burst]

And any of them then are even remotely rural or suburban in nature, will be wiped off Newsom’s vote totals in swing states, by the veritable nonstop barrage of campaign ads showing tent cities, children walking to school past syringes, etc.

This is already every campaign ad. Has been for decades. Are you old enough to remember Willie Horton?

He's a youngish white guy with nice teeth and hair who sounds smart but doesn't read nerdy. He'd clean up in the places it actually matters, in this case moderately stupid white people who will fall all over themselves to vote for the guy who looks most like a movie president. ETA: also Newsom's 6'3, he's fucking perfect.

Put him on a stage next to Trump and he's already won. He pretty much just has to not spontaneously combust. It'd be JFK/Nixon all over again.

[Sima Tuna]

The obvious and hilarious answer would be for Biden to immediately turn around and order the justices who decided this to be executed.

Yeah, I was disappointed by Biden's low-T "I don't want to abuse this power" response. Bitch please! He should immediately order sweeping executive actions!

Item 1: Trump is now removed from the ballot!
Item 2: All student loan debt is now forgiven!
Item 3: Free healthcare for all!
Item 4: The Republican Party is abolished under penalty of arrest!
Item 5: All card-carrying Republicans will attend a special hearing to explain why they are not traitors to the country!
Item 6: Any Republican found guilty at the drumhead shall be sentenced to an immediate prison term not less than two years, without possibility of parole!

... Maybe, just maybe, if Biden ('s handlers) had the balls to go through with some of these and pull the "I'm on official business and immune from prosecution" BS, then maybe the Supreme Court would stop and think about the can of worms they've just opened. Maybe they'd even repent and go back on their decision.

If the President cannot be prosecuted for his actions in official capacity, then he can do anything he wishes with impunity. Including abolishing term limits, one assumes.

Oh, and this ruling also retroactively means that Bill Clinton getting a BJ from Monica Lewisnky in the White House was part of his official duties.

[orange808]

It doesn't work that way. The fact that Biden cannot be prosecuted wouldn't allow his executive actions to stand up.

From what I see, this American system of government has no guardrails and it assumes that the people running the government will act in good faith. There are massive loopholes in the nation's precious constitution. Unfortunately, there is no will or path to fixing any of it. The people in charge are actively planning to dismantle the system of government and the opening phase is nearly complete. There is nothing to contain them, save elections.

As it stands, there's no political will or votes to amend the document. Where will this lead?

Even if Biden wins (and that's unlikely right now), all we have is a four year delay. There are dozens of Donald Trumps waiting for their turn. Something still has to be done to deescalate this situation, reassert the separation of powers, and neutralize the activist court. We're already in Dred Scott territory after this executive immunity fiasco. Is there a path forward? Almost half the American population will vote GOP--and the Republicans are determined to destroy the nation by any means necessary. The constitution needs to be amended, but there's no way to do it.

Could campaign to the working class on domestic issues outside of identity politics, but the aristocracy forbids it. I don't know if any of you study history, but this is how nations die, folks. This is textbook.

[Air Master Burst]

It doesn't work that way. The fact that Biden cannot be prosecuted wouldn't allow his executive actions to stand up

That's why you start with executions. Let 'em try to impeach him for it, he's 81 and barely there anyway. Challenge it in court? Justices are dead. And hey, after all that, pardoning Hunter won't even be a blip on the radar.

ETA: Real talk tho, Biden swore an oath to defend the country, and if he truly believes Trump is as much of a threat as he likes to claim, this ruling essentially gives him the means to do actually something about it.

[orange808]

It doesn't work that way. The fact that Biden cannot be prosecuted wouldn't allow his executive actions to stand up

That's why you start with executions. Let 'em try to impeach him for it, he's 81 and barely there anyway. Challenge it in court? Justices are dead. And hey, after all that, pardoning Hunter won't even be a blip on the radar.

You're having a laugh or venting, right? There's no way that could be done. That leads to civil war or a Stalinist police state regime. Like it or not, the entire global political and economic order cannot stand without full American engagement right now. A shock to the United States will be felt worldwide--and I'm not participating in exceptionalism, here. The same can be said for China. If they somehow slipped into a civil war, the shock would threaten the entire world. What you're suggesting is an escalation.

[Air Master Burst]

You're having a laugh or venting, right? There's no way that could be done. That leads to civil war or a Stalinist police state regime

This is literally what all the Democrats are complaining will happen if Trump gets elected again. At least one of the justices mentioned it right in the dissenting opinion.

If Biden wants to prevent it they just made it perfectly legal.

[orange808]

You're having a laugh or venting, right? There's no way that could be done. That leads to civil war or a Stalinist police state regime

This is literally what all the Democrats are complaining will happen if Trump gets elected again. At least one of the justices mentioned it right in the dissenting opinion.

If Biden wants to prevent it they just made it perfectly legal.

You didn't prevent it. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[orange808]

Biden's messaging since the debate feels patronizing to me.

I'm getting tired of hearing that registered Democrats are still planning to vote against Trump. We already knew that. Water is also wet. That's obvious.

The problem is those unicorn swing voters. They are the ones that will decide the election. Stop talking about me. I'm not your problem. Those voters are the difference and they don't obey instructions.

Second, the debate was supposed to help build support with these swing voter people. By all measurements, it failed miserably. A poll that shows Democrats still voting against Trump doesn't make the debate any better. The debate was supposed to help with these swing voters. Holding onto support from decided voters doesn't matter. The only measurement of success was the gains Biden accomplished with his debate performance. There are no gains, so it's an abject failure.

This is not complicated logic or difficult to understand. I have not presented any differential equations. There's no trap door function or cryptography. There are no complex legal theories or convoluted precedents to unravel. I'm talking about straightforward and obvious things, here.

[Sengoku Strider]

The former stomach in chief's legal team took all of 0.0001 seconds to decide they were running with the immunity ball.

Will Scharf, an attorney for the former president, laid out the next steps for special counsel Jack Smith's case following the U.S. Supreme Court ruling that former presidents have absolute immunity for their official acts but no immunity for private acts.

When pressed by Collins whether using a "false slates of electors" would constitute enough for a trial, Scharf denied that the Trump team had used false slates and said using "alternate slates" was an "official act."

I don't understand why anybody in any part of the US political equation aside from the Divine Right of Kings fun club would want a legal system where he could just get away with this.

[Sima Tuna]

Alternate slates is an official act! It makes so much sense when you put it that way!

Spoiler

[orange808]

I don't understand why anybody in any part of the US political equation aside from the Divine Right of Kings fun club would want a legal system where he could just get away with this.

Because, American aristocrats prefer tyranny over any kind of reform. They fought hard to install the neoliberal world order, win Citizens United, and end government regulation. They'll do anything (literally anything) to keep their gains and push ahead. It's more than just holding on to what they have; they plan to take even more.

It's not complicated and human history confirms their intentions.

[orange808]

And, the funniest part: after the right wing installs a new government, they will restrict and finally take away citizen gun ownership.

And, "cold dead hand" won't be a problem. Nobody in the government will want to risk being assassinated by angry people. Remember that they will be defying the will of half the population with martial law.

[Sengoku Strider]

Because, American aristocrats prefer tyranny over any kind of reform. They fought hard to install the neoliberal world order, win Citizens United, and end government regulation. They'll do anything (literally anything) to keep their gains and push ahead. It's more than just holding on to what they have; they plan to take even more.

It's not complicated and human history confirms their intentions.

That doesn't make sense either though, 100% plot armour president saps their power too. The only people who could call this a win are ideologues who identify their movement with Trump personally.

Apparently they slipped in a ruling where the president gets to lean directly on the Justice Dept as well:

“The president may discuss potential investigations and prosecutions with his Attorney General and other Justice Department officials to carry out his constitutional duty to ‘take care that the laws be faithfully executed,’” Roberts wrote.

“And the Attorney General, as head of the Justice Department, acts as the President’s ‘chief law enforcement officer’ who ‘provides vital assistance to [him] in the performance of [his] constitutional duty to ‘preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution,’”

Years of "this is how Nazi Germany got started!" out of conservatives over every little thing, but this is the closest to an actual concrete move toward authoritarianism I've seen out of the US in my lifetime. All I'm seeing on Fox & Breitbart is "nothing to see here people, great victory, move along."

[Air Master Burst]

You didn't prevent it. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

I don't know what this means, but I guess you got me there?

And, the funniest part: after the right wing installs a new government, they will restrict and finally take away citizen gun ownership.

Never gonna happen, this is literally unenforcable. Half the police departments in rural america already refuse to uphold any sort of gun laws. I guess they could try martial law, but the military isn't stupid enough to go along with that.

[orange808]

Never gonna happen, this is literally unenforcable. Half the police departments in rural america already refuse to uphold any sort of gun laws. I guess they could try martial law, but the military isn't stupid enough to go along with that.

Did you know that it took under six months for the Nazis to implement martial law after they finally properly got established into power?

I guarantee when the military shows up in armored vehicles and demands the guns on their list under penalty of immediate execution, they will round them up in a reasonably orderly fashion. Remember, the young men with guns aren't the ones getting their gun taken away. There's a way to keep guns in the hands of extremist true believers: a militia.

The police are abolished in Trumpland. Their public unions and "woke" community policing are replaced with martial law. It shouldn't be a problem to recruit the true believers into the national militia that patrols and enforces the regime on the streets. And, it's dead simple to reinterpret the constitution and restrict guns to the official national militia. You pass the police duties to militias that keep their guns and operate with impunity--ultimately taking their orders from the military itself.

[Air Master Burst]

I guarantee when the military shows up in armored vehicles and demands the guns on their list under penalty of immediate execution, they will round them up in a reasonably orderly fashion.

The military just spent the last two decades getting their collective ass kicked trying to do this very thing in a foreign country with a fraction of the population and guns (which were mostly rusty decades-old hand-me-downs and not the modern arsenal the average american has today). Since they have to live here too it really limits the collateral damage they can do to utilities and public works, and any sort of guerilla resistance would have easy access to all their families and property.

The people running the military know this, and don't want none of that smoke. They also won't tolerate roving armed militias for the same reasons as outlined above. They won't do shit past sending the national guard out to restore order with a curfew and be dicks to protestors.

[orange808]

The military just spent the last two decades getting their collective ass kicked trying to do this very thing in a foreign country with a fraction of the population and guns (which were mostly rusty decades-old hand-me-downs and not the modern arsenal the average american has today). Since they have to live here too it really limits the collateral damage they can do to utilities and public works, and any sort of guerilla resistance would have easy access to all their families and property.

There are limits? Are you sure?

The United States is not a third world country or a foreign nation. At least half of the nation will be enthusiastic supporters of the government. The US military doesn't enjoy any popularity or partnership when they are on foriegn soil. Americans they don't want a civil war, and the young men would pour into militias.

You are saying "It can't happen here." I disagree. The Night of Long Knives happened because Germanz Be So Stupidz, amiright? Just like in your Wolfenstein videa gamez?

Also, you're the person that told me that Biden can execute people, everyone will shrug, and we'll go back to business as usual. The moment the killing starts, it will likely open a civil war. Even if you somehow held things together, a future president would take similar action, because the practice would be normalized. The only way to stay in control is more killing. It's a slippery slope. No matter what, democracy as we knew it would be over. You said Biden could "save" us from an authoritarian Stalinist regime, but killing people would actually create a Stalin regime--and the only way to maintain it afterwards is more murder. You can't pull back later and pretend it didn't happen. If the opposition gets power, they will retaliate with more blood. How to stop them? More murder. That's why you can't go there. From a moral standpoint, it's much easier. Killing people is wrong

"Don't give in to hate."
"Mind what you have learned, save you it can!"

[AyeYoYoYO]

And any of them then are even remotely rural or suburban in nature, will be wiped off Newsom’s vote totals in swing states, by the veritable nonstop barrage of campaign ads showing tent cities, children walking to school past syringes, etc.

This is already every campaign ad. Has been for decades. Are you old enough to remember Willie Horton?

He's a youngish white guy with nice teeth and hair who sounds smart but doesn't read nerdy. He'd clean up in the places it actually matters, in this case moderately stupid white people who will fall all over themselves to vote for the guy who looks most like a movie president. ETA: also Newsom's 6'3, he's fucking perfect.

1. I assume Willie Horton is some racial scapegoat used by a politician before my time ?

2. Where are these places “he’d clean up in” that “actually matter” ?

3. You’re vastly overrating the former influence hollywood film culture has/had. Inverse stepford wife typecast evidently works for you/your demographic, but it works against Newsom with the majority of the electorate. He comes off very phony, insincere, and the ads of syringe-laden tent cities and American psycho scenes spliced in there in “do you want the entire nation to be like California ?” Messaging would sink Newsom very badly among many key swing states undecideds.

[Air Master Burst]

You’re vastly overrating the former influence hollywood film culture has/had. Inverse stepford wife typecast evidently works for you/your demographic

I'm a filthy fucking communist who won't vote for a liberal anyway, so what works for my demographic is irrelevant.

Trump literally chooses his favorites based on how they look on television. Americans are stupid as shit and conditioned this way basically from birth.

At least half of the nation will be enthusiastic supporters of the government. The US military doesn't enjoy any popularity or partnership when they are on foriegn soil. Americans they don't want a civil war, and the young men would pour into militias.

Have you ever served in the military? You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the culture or how they operate.

Also, people who join militias are the exact opposite of "enthusiastic supporters of the government."

[orange808]

Have you ever served in the military? You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the culture or how they operate.

Also, people who join militias are the exact opposite of "enthusiastic supporters of the government."

Most of the people in the military are already Trumpers. Where do you think America recruits from? The Hamptons?

[Air Master Burst]

Have you ever served in the military? You don't seem to have a very good grasp of the culture or how they operate.

Also, people who join militias are the exact opposite of "enthusiastic supporters of the government."

Most of the people in the military are already Trumpers. Where do you think America recruits from? The Hamptons?

Setting aside the fact that Biden won the military vote in 2020, it's a pretty massive leap from voting for Trump last time to actively engaging in a violent military coup.

The military spent over a decade taking LITERALLY ANYONE THEY COULD GET! I got a 30k signing bonus and got to choose any job I wanted. There are a ton of poor kids from the liberal cities that just sign up to pay for college.

There's also the fact that it takes a 4-year degree to be an officer, and operation and maintainance of literally trillions of dollars worth of advanced equipment requires a firm enough grounding in science that you kind of have to believe in shit like climate change by default.

I get that you're upset by current events, but you're clearly intent on this weird liberal Red Dawn delusion, so I'm just gonna leave you to it now. I actually have a VA appointment to get to, lol.

[Sengoku Strider]

I try not to get caught up in dooming, but I don't always succeed on account of all the impending doom. Kevin Roberts, the main Project 2025 guy is out doing victory laps about the revolution he's in the midst of pulling off:

The leader of conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation argued the Supreme Court’s ruling on presidential immunity will reinforce a “second American Revolution,” which he said would “remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.”

For anyone unfamiliar, Project 2025 is The Heritage Foundation (right wing think tank who most influenced Regan's presidency) + Koch Bros' (largest republican mega donors) plan to create a right wing authoritarian Christian state. Roberts is a Texan history Phd whose name got big in conservative circles after running a tiny private Catholic school and refusing to take federal grant money because it would compromise their ability to keep out the LGBTQ. He got pegged in the NY Times as a "cowboy catholic" and stuck with it, that type of self-promotion eventually got him the Heritage Foundation presidency. The Project 2025 manifesto includes some hum-dinger lines like:

“defund the Department of Justice, dismantle the FBI, break up the Department of Homeland Security and eliminate the Departments of Education and Commerce”

And that the president should have:

“complete power over quasi-independent agencies such as the FCC, which makes and enforces rules for television and internet companies that have been the bane of Trump’s political existence in the last few years. ...to ensure that what remains of this slashed-down bureaucracy is reliably MAGA conservative — not just for the next president but for a long time to come — and that the White House maintains total control of it.”

If they seriously get to turn the FCC into the president's propaganda wing with the capacity to strongarm independent media, America's about to get weird. Japan had a similar thing under Abe, he used the Fukushima crisis to ban media criticism of government and they dropped 80 spots on the world press freedom index overnight. The current Supreme Court appear to be willing to make the constitution say whatever they want it to, so this sort of thing isn't paranoia anymore.

[orange808]

The right has been saying that for years. Taking them at their word has never been paranoid.

And, I'm not listening to anyone that thinks the government can execute people on Monday and resume business as usual on Tuesday morning.

Now, we're going to gamble everything on an 81 year old man that can't finish a sentence. I can't even count all the excuses. I've lost track. They change everyday. Today, I think he couldn't finish a sentence because he took a trip. Yesterday it was a cold. The day before he was "over prepared".

Fuck.

[BulletMagnet]

... Maybe, just maybe, if Biden ('s handlers) had the balls to go through with some of these and pull the "I'm on official business and immune from prosecution" BS, then maybe the Supreme Court would stop and think about the can of worms they've just opened.

That's just the thing; assuming I understand it correctly, this ruling doesn't actually give the President any new powers, it just makes it nigh impossible to hold him accountable for abusing - or attempting to abuse - the authority he already has. Basically, if Biden ordered his subordinates to do something crazy he wouldn't have any additional means to force them to comply if they refused, but if the latter ever attempted to blow the whistle on him they'd hit an automatic dead end.

To put it another way, recall how Nixon first ordered his attorney general to carry out the Saturday Night Massacre but the latter refused and resigned; the deputy attorney general then got the order, and reacted the same way. So Nixon finally figured "guess I need to get a real piece of shit human being to make this happen", and thus his next stop was Robert Bork. Back in the day, the revelation of this sort of behavior is part of what forced Nixon to resign; in the aftermath of this ruling, he could almost certainly successfully argue that the Massacre was an "official act" and the ensuing "if the President does it it's not illegal" quote would have come across very differently.

In a nutshell, what this does is basically remove any fear on the President's part that if he keeps on giving out unlawful orders to his subordinates eventually it will come back to bite him; now he can simply keep on trying as many times as he wants until he finds a toady soulless enough to do whatever he says with zero concern that he might eventually be called to account for it. And gee, this would be really awkward if, say, every right-wing organization in the country had publicly signed on to a highly detailed initiative, perhaps even mentioned in a recent post here, to replace the professional administrative state with hand-picked political appointees who serve exclusively at the pleasure of the President.

It almost makes Chief Justice Roberts' (along with Mike Johnson and the rest of the soulless ghouls backing him up) hand-waving dismissal of the dissenters on the court as dealing in hysterical hypotheticals seem somehow, I don't know, disingenuous. Sort of like how all of the staunch "originalists" on the court, who regularly insist on deferring to centuries-old statutes to, say, overturn Roe v. Wade, despite having received numerous amicus briefs detailing how presidential immunity had literally never been interpreted this way at any time in the country's history, just kind of suddenly decided to ignore history altogether this time around. And having repeatedly testified during their confirmation hearings that they deeply and truly believe that "no man, including the President, is above the law".

The problem is those unicorn swing voters.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: as far as I'[m concerned anyone who still calls himself "undecided" after everything that's happened is a Trump/GOP voter who won't admit it. If they didn't abandon the party a long time ago they're actively looking for any flimsy excuse to vote for the authoritarians and they will find one. Lost causes, just put them all in the "R" column and save yourself a lot of time and effort.

The voters I am legit scared of, however, are not the ones looking for an excuse to vote Trump, but the ones looking for an excuse to stay home and blame everyone else when things go badly, the same way they did in 2016, when they couldn't be bothered to vote against the authoritarian candidate because the non-authoritarian alternative just didn't inspire them enough. The real kicker is that the motivation behind their behavior is identical to that of the MAGA diehards: "If I don't get exactly what I want, right now, go ahead and burn the whole fucking thing down, just so long as I get to wave a self-righteous middle finger at people I hate".

Assuming Biden remains the nominee I guarantee you that "but his debate performance" will become the new "but her emails".

[brokenhalo]

Assuming Biden remains the nominee I guarantee you that "but his debate performance" will become the new "but her emails".

I think the issue is that the media has focused on almost nothing but the poor debate performance and Joe's age, without reporting much of anything on how absolutely insane Trump has become. If you don't tune into left leaning youtube shows or podcasts, you'll never hear reporting about his rage tweets, rally ramblings, or all the evil shit his fascist bff's are talking about and planning. Even Project 2025 doesn't seem to have cracked into the mainstream much at all, and that has it's own fucking website. So the "but his debate performance" makes total sense to the person who really isn't tuned in much to politics. They'll just figure "eh, doesn't effect me either way" and stay home.

And I've got this nagging thought in the back of my mind that Biden is going to pull an RBG with this one- not knowing when to hang it up and let someone else take the lead, and royally tarnishing his legacy because of what comes after that poor decision. I know he's been a good president, and will surround himself with good advisers, but damn it would be nice if we had someone more energetic and quicker on his feet than the 2024 version of Biden. Someone who could have called trump out on his lies, and when the time came, said "Donald, this is a presidential debate. No one gives a shit about your golf swing." That for sure would have gotten people excited.

[orange808]

First of all, did you ever stop to think that voter turnout might be more than just one particular kind of person and the votes we get are usually a solid sample size of the population? If I recall correctly, the strong turnout in the 2020 election gave Trump a boost (in votes) above the polls, by the way. Turnout won't fix this.

Maybe your 2016 theory is wrong?

Second, swing voters absolutely do exist. Yes. They really don't give a shit and they really can ping pong between Trump and a Democrat without much concern.

I posted a graph in the thread earlier. Look at it. In addition to stronger turnout, people almost stopped voting for third party candidates in 2020, but the overall votes just barely broke in Biden's favor. Of course, the older the voters, the more independent voters chose Trump. Getting people to declare one of the major parties isn't a magic bullet.

Those independents are the ones that are swinging these elections--and there's not very many of them. It's actually only the indies in the battleground states and it's just a few indies that really aren't decided. You may not be able to wrap your head around it, but they're very real and they truly don't know or don't care. They absolutely will ping pong between the parties and nothing seems to bother them. I imagine they can still be persuaded to vote for a Democrat, but I'm not sure a sundowning 81 year old is going to convince them.

They don't give a shit about Trump, lies, authoritarian government, or democracy. So, what else you got? Better be good, because time is running out. You've got to accept that these looney swing voters are real. That blind spot is why the Democrats keep losing. Everyone else has their minds made up, so it comes down to them. They are real. It's not Bernie supporters staying home--and increased turnout brings out a larger sample of the overall electorate. You bring out voters on both sides when you get voters motivated. Motivated voters also stop voting for third parties, but it doesn't always break in the Dem's favor. With millennials aging, what will they do this time?

Anyhow, 2016 was lost because Hillz sucked and the indies didn't want her. That's all there is to it. Lecturing them won't help. The Dems tried that in 2016. It didn't go well.

Finally, stop with the media. The swing voters don't give a shit about Trump's lies or his criminal behavior. Telling them again won't help. You're trying to reason with unreasonable voters. Stop it!

So, what else you got? For goodness sakes, don't say Kamala Harris.