Hi...!
This is my first post - I'm not that well versed in forums so I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting this "^^ (as far as I read the rules, I think this is ok...!)
Basically what the title says :S
Been playing shmups for over 3 years now, mostly touhous though. But every now and then I play Strikers II and DoDonPachi DaiOuJou WL as well (even though I don't seem to be improving at them "^^ have only reached up to 1-6 1-ALL pace on Strikers II, and Stage 4 1-ALL pace on ddpdoj).
I always die with bombs on stock on shumps and lose them qwq
I mean I could use them right away but then I would be getting very little of them ":D
Also I feel like I was very used to bombs in Touhou being very much "instantaneous" and so any time I noticed I got cornered, I would have plenty of time to reach out to my bomb key.
But you don't really get cornered in Strikers II and ddpdoj.
For Strikers II, bullets feel way too fast for me to react on time to bomb.
For ddpdoj, it feels like most small gaps are a 50/50 whether I pull them off or not.
For both games, bombing activation feels like it's huuuugely delayed (i.e I will feel like I pressed the bomb button on time but still die O.o)
Any help on this issue or anything else is appreciated "^^
Thank you for your time reading, I'm eager to get to know you and learn more! ^-^
RQ: Dying too often with bombs on stock
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SUPERNOOB20
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RQ: Dying too often with bombs on stock
Last edited by SUPERNOOB20 on Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: Dying too often with bombs on stock
Welcome!
You might not be aware, but Touhou games, particularly the Windows era games from Embodiment of Scarlet Devil onward have more generous timing windows for bombing due to something that's not found in the majority of arcade shmups: deathbombing. Basically, there's a window of a few frames when you get hit by a bullet at will respond to the bomb button and cancel the death, instead firing a bomb at the enemy. The timing window changes from game to game but generally the timing window is more strict if it's your first death and rank is high, and more generous if you're on your last life. Imperishable Night this costs 2 bombs but generally fires a stronger version of the normal bomb, but you can still deathbomb if you have 1 bomb remaining.
CAVE games like Dodonpachi Daioujou as well as Takumi and most Psikyo games activate the bomb and your invulnerability instantly upon bombing. You can see the invulnerability aura activate when firing it (most CAVE games have 1 or 2 frame input lag, minimal really, 2-3 frames if emulating usually). There's some characters in Psikyo games with bombs that do not provide instant invulnerability (like Tetsu who gets a very strong bomb that needs to be used pre-emptively but does a lot of damage when it hits), and older games such as the Raiden games where there's a deliberate delay between the bomb launching and it actually erasing bullets.
Improving will be a matter of reacting and bombing earlier than you're used to, as well as planning your bombs and using them pre-emptively when you know an attack that's tricky is coming up.
You might not be aware, but Touhou games, particularly the Windows era games from Embodiment of Scarlet Devil onward have more generous timing windows for bombing due to something that's not found in the majority of arcade shmups: deathbombing. Basically, there's a window of a few frames when you get hit by a bullet at will respond to the bomb button and cancel the death, instead firing a bomb at the enemy. The timing window changes from game to game but generally the timing window is more strict if it's your first death and rank is high, and more generous if you're on your last life. Imperishable Night this costs 2 bombs but generally fires a stronger version of the normal bomb, but you can still deathbomb if you have 1 bomb remaining.
CAVE games like Dodonpachi Daioujou as well as Takumi and most Psikyo games activate the bomb and your invulnerability instantly upon bombing. You can see the invulnerability aura activate when firing it (most CAVE games have 1 or 2 frame input lag, minimal really, 2-3 frames if emulating usually). There's some characters in Psikyo games with bombs that do not provide instant invulnerability (like Tetsu who gets a very strong bomb that needs to be used pre-emptively but does a lot of damage when it hits), and older games such as the Raiden games where there's a deliberate delay between the bomb launching and it actually erasing bullets.
Improving will be a matter of reacting and bombing earlier than you're used to, as well as planning your bombs and using them pre-emptively when you know an attack that's tricky is coming up.
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SUPERNOOB20
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Re: Dying too often with bombs on stock
:O
Yeah I knew the deathbombing in Windows Touhou games, with IN (Touhou 8) having a veeery generous timing window.
What I didn't know is that this deathbombing mechanic was specific to Touhou, and not aplicable to shmups in general O.o
Pre-emptive bombing, I see... yeah that will be very useful for ddpdoj, where stages are always "more or less the same" so to speak, and also bombs activate "instantly" or with very few frames of delay as you say.
I still don't see a way to anticipate bomb usage in Strikers II though, since the stages and rank feel a lot more variable and never the same (maybe it will be a matter of remembering "X enemies in X areas may shoot very fast and so it would be better to either pre-emptively bomb, or watch out for those enemies specifically"). Also the delay between bomb activation and i-frames / bullet erasing/blocking is HUGE (Hayate) even if you're on the bottom of the screen at that moment. So yeah prioritizing certain enemy types on certain areas while in high rank values is pretty much the only thing that comes to mind.
Thank you for your comment, very helpful ^-^ <3
Yeah I knew the deathbombing in Windows Touhou games, with IN (Touhou 8) having a veeery generous timing window.
What I didn't know is that this deathbombing mechanic was specific to Touhou, and not aplicable to shmups in general O.o
Pre-emptive bombing, I see... yeah that will be very useful for ddpdoj, where stages are always "more or less the same" so to speak, and also bombs activate "instantly" or with very few frames of delay as you say.
I still don't see a way to anticipate bomb usage in Strikers II though, since the stages and rank feel a lot more variable and never the same (maybe it will be a matter of remembering "X enemies in X areas may shoot very fast and so it would be better to either pre-emptively bomb, or watch out for those enemies specifically"). Also the delay between bomb activation and i-frames / bullet erasing/blocking is HUGE (Hayate) even if you're on the bottom of the screen at that moment. So yeah prioritizing certain enemy types on certain areas while in high rank values is pretty much the only thing that comes to mind.
Thank you for your comment, very helpful ^-^ <3
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: RQ: Dying too often with bombs on stock
Yeah, Psikyo games are a bit unique in that characters have VERY different bombs in each game. Some ships have instant invulnerability whereas others lose the safety of an instantly safe bomb in exchange for one that's more delayed. It makes the ships feel different from each other. I tend to steer towards ships with instant release bombs unless their damage output is so high that it offsets the bomb disadvantage.SUPERNOOB20 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:33 pmAlso the delay between bomb activation and i-frames / bullet erasing/blocking is HUGE (Hayate) even if you're on the bottom of the screen at that moment.
https://shmups.wiki/library/Strikers_1945_II
Going from a Touhou game to a Psikyo game will be a bit of an adjustment. CAVE, Takumi, or Raizing games will feel more natural as their bombs tend to be instant release and invulnerability and are quite strong. Marisa's laser types that use Master Spark as a bomb tend to feel a lot like Donpachi / Dodonpachi's laser bombs.
I'm actually not sure if any arcade games actually have deathbombing. I know some later ones introduced autobombs such as Akai Katana where you have an autobomb feature on your last life, but I think Touhou was the shmup that pioneered deathbombing (or if it didn't originate in Touhou it at least heavily popularized it).