Shmup Related Questions That Don't Deserve a Thread

[MJR]

Related question, are modern shmups good as M2 games? or their ports are even more responsive than a modern/recent game?

In theory they should be as good at baseline, if not better, on account of being native code that doesn't have to spend CPU time passing through an emulation layer.

In practice... Few modern studios have the technical craft of M2, or of the OG developers whose games they port. Easy-to-use-hard-to-master engines have lowered the barrier to entry without meaningfully raising the average on tech-savviness, so there are more games, but they're not necessarily better-made.

You'd hope that modern engines would eventually refine themselves to the point where it's more difficult to make mistakes, and 'just work' on whatever hardware without the user having to learn a bunch of quirks and best practices; programming languages have started moving in that direction, adding extra machinery to say "don't do this it will be slow and rubbish and / or crash" long before the code is run.

Unfortunately, engines are complex things, so much of what's out there is well behind the technical curve. Unreal is probably the worst for it - beautiful cutting edge graphics tech balancing on top of a rickety decades-old framework. And the more things you balance on top, the harder it becomes to fix the foundation without binning the entire thing and starting fresh. Easier and more profitable to employ a bunch of tech support staff and offer them as a premium service.

Which is a very long winded way of reiterating BIL's point: It depends

Yes, and no.. Unreal does have lots of features that can bring the thing down, and its very easy to shoot yourself in foot with it. But you can also make a 2D game with it, without any bells and whistles, and it will run just fine even if you used blueprints. Depends on the dev like BIL said.

I havent played too many modern shmups so I dont know how offensive they get with inout lag, but I think old arcade games are provided largely by emulation so modern engines would be out of question anyway.. at least I HOPE no one would so dumb that they tried to deliver emulation with Unity or Unreal..!

[XoPachi]

Delete them? Nothing? It sounds like it's autosaving the replay file if you want to watch it again. A lot of games autosave the input replays that way (Kaikan and Vastynex come to mind), and name it like Replay1.bin, Replay2.bin as they're produced.

I'm asking if they can be played back, how do I like...do that? The game doesn't appear to have an in game replay viewer.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I'm asking if they can be played back, how do I like...do that? The game doesn't appear to have an in game replay viewer.

It might not support replays yet. Jaimers has footage of the game and it's showing recording live gameplay, rather than a recording of a replay being played back.

I suspect it's built using an STG maker style game engine, but I know there's some games like Solid State Survivor that are built using a standard engine that weren't able to provide replay support. SSS has "Replay Viewer" in the title screen but it's not selectable and I suspect it's because they weren't able to get input replays to sync properly due to some rng elements (the 1UP requires shooting a midboss's turrets in a specific order, but the order is randomized each one and you have to work it out based on which turrets flash when hit), so the game still tries to create a replay file as that functionality is baked into the game engine, but it's of no use.

Some games like Vastynex don't have a Replay option in the menu and instead you have to go to the high score screen which also doubles as a replay viewer where you select the score to watch the run.

[Lemnear]

Do you always play a SHMUP individually? focusing on just one? or do you play some sort of "personal bundle" with 2 or more game at the same time? (even paired with non-shmups)?
I like to have at least 2 games to swap. Also something to warm up with...before the actual session.

[Lander]

Do you always play a SHMUP individually? focusing on just one? or do you play some sort of "personal bundle" with 2 or more game at the same time? (even paired with non-shmups)?
I like to have at least 2 games to swap. Also something to warm up with...before the actual session.

For me it's strict monogamy with STGs. If I'm playing one, I'm training it on some level, even if I don't expect to reach clear status. So I figure playing more than one at a time will introduce 'noise' and make me learn less effectively.

If I'm hopping back and forth to another game, it'll be a different genre for the sake of variety. Though that has its own risks, since it could work out more fun than the training grind and end up eating all the attention!

[Lemnear]

I have a perfectly functional DualShock 4 (one of the first model) , the only flaw is the right arrow of the D-Pad, which now has a shorter run than the other keys, perhaps it is also more responsive but it annoys me...

The other pad is a stupid Nacon, it has BAD analogue sticks, but the D-Pad and the 4 buttons are huge and absolutely enjoyable, but the cable is starting to cause problems, so:

Hori Onyx Plus or Hori Commander Octa?

Or?

If it works for PS4 (PS5 but optional), PC and PS Classic Mini is even better.

EDIT: are the "click" buttons good for SHMUPS?

[Lemnear]

EDIT: are the "click" buttons good for SHMUPS?

In short, are good? for SHMUPS/Racing/Platform or good only for the Fighting games?

[Lander]

Clicky microswitch buttons are good for everything tactile, low travel, lovely. Way better than traditional rubber grommet ones.

As controllers go, I can't recommend one pad to rule them all, but if you're willing to have a dedicated one for non-analog stuff, the 2.4Ghz Wireless Retrobit Saturn Pad is really good.
Though it has to be the 2.4Ghz version - the USB one is all stiff and horrible, and the Bluetooth one raises the D-Pad to fit extra stuff on the board.

Looking around, it seems that they recently put out a new version with dual analogs, L2/R2 triggers, and rumble. Looks really nice, but might be a diceroll on build quality.

[Lemnear]

Clicky microswitch buttons are good for everything tactile, low travel, lovely. Way better than traditional rubber grommet ones.

As controllers go, I can't recommend one pad to rule them all, but if you're willing to have a dedicated one for non-analog stuff, the 2.4Ghz Wireless Retrobit Saturn Pad is really good.
Though it has to be the 2.4Ghz version - the USB one is all stiff and horrible, and the Bluetooth one raises the D-Pad to fit extra stuff on the board.

Looking around, it seems that they recently put out a new version with dual analogs, L2/R2 triggers, and rumble. Looks really nice, but might be a diceroll on build quality.

Are ok even with autofire or racing? (just pressing the button endlessy) ???
I see that every Saturn-Type pad is really popular here...but that Hori Octa Commander looks more ..."Pro" (for only 10 bucks more).

TY btw!

[ryu]

I see that every Saturn-Type pad is really popular here..

Are there even any that are good to use on PS5? I also got the Octa on my shopping list because it's the next best thing I could find for PS5. Just bums me out that it lacks support for the right stick because even arcadey games sometimes use it for their menus.

[Lander]

Yeah, microswitches should be fine for holding down. So long as they're not in a Razer controller - each and every last one of those is cursed to break just after the refund period and require a lengthy return process.

(Though if you're lucky like teenage me was, they'll give you a voucher that unintentionally discounts every item in your Razer cart by the price of the controller, thus allowing you to get a big box of mid-range Razer crap shipped to you fo' free. Still not worth the hassle though )

PS5-wise, you'll probably have to wait for the next generation of pads, or get a universal adapter that's compatible with older stuff. I'd probably go with the latter; finding a genuinely good retro pad is tough enough already, let alone if you're only shopping for ones with support for the latest machines.

[el_rika]

Is it just me or is Deathsmiles MBL v1.1 level999, easier than v1.0 MBL (arcade) level999?
Bosses seem the same (?) but levels have fewer and slower bullets, and there's noticeably more slowdown overall.

[Lemnear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v12I617S2pM

aren't some of these suggestions a little "controversial"?

like:
Chaotic Patterns?
Healthy RNG is replay-ability?

[nogden]

My question about this video is what exactly boghog meant when he said switch version has rank but steam version doesn’t. He should have elaborated more.

[ryu]

Are the City Connection ports of Akai Katana and Death Smiles 1&2 equipped with scanline filters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v12I617S2pM

aren't some of these suggestions a little "controversial"?

like:
Chaotic Patterns?
Healthy RNG is replay-ability?

Yeah I was also shocked by how enthusiastically they were endorsing RNG in bullet hell patterns. Generally I think it's fine to have some if it's under the developer's control. Not when there's a risk of introducing situations that are impossible to get out of alive. Doesn't matter if the game has bombs because what's a player supposed to do when they're particularly unlucky and encounter enough certain death RNG rolls that the bombs can't keep up? Doesn't sound like a fun game to me when RNG decides whether it's even possible to clear it.

[Lemnear]

Are the City Connection ports of Akai Katana and Death Smiles 1&2 equipped with scanline filters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v12I617S2pM

aren't some of these suggestions a little "controversial"?

like:
Chaotic Patterns?
Healthy RNG is replay-ability?

Yeah I was also shocked by how enthusiastically they were endorsing RNG in bullet hell patterns. Generally I think it's fine to have some if it's under the developer's control. Not when there's a risk of introducing situations that are impossible to get out of alive. Doesn't matter if the game has bombs because what's a player supposed to do when they're particularly unlucky and encounter enough certain death RNG rolls that the bombs can't keep up? Doesn't sound like a fun game to me when RNG decides whether it's even possible to clear it.

I wish the forum had some sort of "Like" feature (just a heart or something) to say "yeah you are right/i like it" without having to write an entire post to say it

[Lemnear]

Curiosity: during a slowdown, how many FPS are there?

[ryu]

Curiosity: during a slowdown, how many FPS are there?

Noticeably less than the game's average fps

[Lemnear]

Curiosity: during a slowdown, how many FPS are there?

Noticeably less than the game's average fps

Exactly? 20? 30? 45? idk..just a curiosity about FPS perception.

[ryu]

Curiosity: during a slowdown, how many FPS are there?

Noticeably less than the game's average fps

Exactly? 20? 30? 45? idk..just a curiosity about FPS perception.

Slowdown just means the game runs noticeably slower than it usually does. Could be 20 FPS instead of 60, but also 30 or 40 FPS instead of the average. Why are you trying to attribute a quantity to it?

[Lemnear]

Noticeably less than the game's average fps

Exactly? 20? 30? 45? idk..just a curiosity about FPS perception.

Slowdown just means the game runs noticeably slower than it usually does. Could be 20 FPS instead of 60, but also 30 or 40 FPS instead of the average. Why are you trying to attribute a quantity to it?

Thx, you answered to my question, just curiosity (so it depends).

[Lander]

In strictly technical terms, a single dropped frame can be considered 'slowdown'. It all depends on your desired level of pedantry

That recent DDP Blue Label hack affair is a handy example - one of the reverse-engineered features was a mysterious box on the UI that would flip between red and blue seemingly without rhyme or reason. It turned out to be a clever debug tool for visualizing slowdown, with each color change corresponding to a dropped frame.

So, from a developer's perspective, even slowdown small enough to be imperceptible is significant.

[Lemnear]

In strictly technical terms, a single dropped frame can be considered 'slowdown'. It all depends on your desired level of pedantry

That recent DDP Blue Label hack affair is a handy example - one of the reverse-engineered features was a mysterious box on the UI that would flip between red and blue seemingly without rhyme or reason. It turned out to be a clever debug tool for visualizing slowdown, with each color change corresponding to a dropped frame.

So, from a developer's perspective, even slowdown small enough to be imperceptible is significant.

This is interesting (and really clever).

Another curiosity: will shmups run at 120fps? (if some don't already exist) or will they remain at 60fps for other "technical-gameplay-wise" reasons?

[ryu]

In strictly technical terms, a single dropped frame can be considered 'slowdown'. It all depends on your desired level of pedantry

That recent DDP Blue Label hack affair is a handy example - one of the reverse-engineered features was a mysterious box on the UI that would flip between red and blue seemingly without rhyme or reason. It turned out to be a clever debug tool for visualizing slowdown, with each color change corresponding to a dropped frame.

So, from a developer's perspective, even slowdown small enough to be imperceptible is significant.

This is interesting (and really clever).

Another curiosity: will shmups run at 120fps? (if some don't already exist) or will they still remain at 60fps for other "technical-gameplay-wise" reasons?

That depends on how it was programmed. Some games have their calculations coupled to the framerate, others not. So with indie shmus on steam, who knows, it depends. With shumps running inside of an emulator, the emulator can output 120hz, just showing the same frame as before until the game renders the actual next frame.

[Steven]

R-Type Final 2 can do 360FPS on PC.

[cfx]

Are the City Connection ports of Akai Katana and Death Smiles 1&2 equipped with scanline filters?

Ai Katana: No idea.

Deathsmiles: No. Deathsmiles 1 has the Xbox 360 graphics in some mode(s) (sorry, haven't played it in a while to remember specifics) where the backgrounds are higher resolution though the character sprites have some kind of filtering that isn't great. Overall I think it looks nice, and that's the version I play though as I think it's preferable to the raw pixellated graphics.

I've never even booted up the second game because I think it's garbage, so can't comment on it, but with it being 3D graphics I very much doubt it has any scanline filters.

[ryu]

Are the City Connection ports of Akai Katana and Death Smiles 1&2 equipped with scanline filters?

Ai Katana: No idea.

Deathsmiles: No. Deathsmiles 1 has the Xbox 360 graphics in some mode(s) (sorry, haven't played it in a while to remember specifics) where the backgrounds are higher resolution though the character sprites have some kind of filtering that isn't great. Overall I think it looks nice, and that's the version I play though as I think it's preferable to the raw pixellated graphics.

Thanks for answering. I'd say it's save to assume it's the same for Akai Katana. Too bad. Even if the games are 3D, upscaled 240p always looks better with a decent filter imo.

[Lander]

Another curiosity: will shmups run at 120fps? (if some don't already exist) or will they remain at 60fps for other "technical-gameplay-wise" reasons?

120+ is totally doable on a technical level, and is outright beneficial to shmup gameplay, but doing it right means putting more work into the 'system architecture' part of programming a game.

Most modern engines are well-equipped for it, and actively encourage well-structured game code (like Unreal for R-Type Final 2,) but it's down to the game dev to actually do that and make sure it works. Some will skip it because 60 is still the lowest common denominator, because they find the architectural stuff hard or boring, see it as "don't fix what isn't broken", or simply don't know about framerate stuff.

I think we'll probably see a gradual shift toward higher framerates over time, as engine tech and learning resources improve. It's a tricky one to stamp out entirely, since even with the best engine possible, it's difficult to stop someone from writing

Code: Select all

ship x position + 4 pixels

instead of

Code: Select all

ship x position + 4 fictive units of space * fractional seconds since last frame

Not impossible - you essentially need a program that watches the programmer as they code, and knows enough about how the game should work to be able to point out obvious mistakes and how to fix them - but that requires a language that can be told what should work means in the context of a video game, which isn't a feature most of the ones we use now (or invent for purposes of in-game scriping) have as standard.

[Lemnear]

Another curiosity: will shmups run at 120fps? (if some don't already exist) or will they remain at 60fps for other "technical-gameplay-wise" reasons?

120+ is totally doable on a technical level, and is outright beneficial to shmup gameplay, but doing it right means putting more work into the 'system architecture' part of programming a game.

Most modern engines are well-equipped for it, and actively encourage well-structured game code (like Unreal for R-Type Final 2,) but it's down to the game dev to actually do that and make sure it works. Some will skip it because 60 is still the lowest common denominator, because they find the architectural stuff hard or boring, see it as "don't fix what isn't broken", or simply don't know about framerate stuff.

I think we'll probably see a gradual shift toward higher framerates over time, as engine tech and learning resources improve. It's a tricky one to stamp out entirely, since even with the best engine possible, it's difficult to stop someone from writing

Code: Select all

ship x position + 4 pixels

instead of

Code: Select all

ship x position + 4 fictive units of space * fractional seconds since last frame

Not impossible - you essentially need a program that watches the programmer as they code, and knows enough about how the game should work to be able to point out obvious mistakes and how to fix them - but that requires a language that can be told what should work means in the context of a video game, which isn't a feature most of the ones we use now (or invent for purposes of in-game scriping) have as standard.

Ty! I like this kind of notions

[hamfighterx]

Thanks for answering. I'd say it's save to assume it's the same for Akai Katana. Too bad. Even if the games are 3D, upscaled 240p always looks better with a decent filter imo.

Can also confirm no scanlines for Akai Katana. I was pretty sure that was the case, but popped my Switch cart in last night to double check.