Dungeon crawler recomendations

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Graphically it looks cool, but the first Wizardry really isn't that good of the game. The dungeon design honestly isn't very good as it's rather a short game when you realize how little of it needs to be explored to complete it (and it's not that difficult to work this out, either). Hopefully the remake heavily retools the dungeon layout which I think would be for the best.

I'd be much more hype for Wizardry Gaiden IV which is intensely well designed and has a really cool feudal Japan vibe to it, or a collection of the three GameBoy games.

[Lander]

Huh, neat. I like the way it lets you plaster the original Apple II interface on top of the lavish remake visuals for maximal anachronism.

Town screen looks lush as well, like something you might see in a modern CRPG or 4X game.

I've only played 8, which I assume is worlds away from the series' roots. Though I've heard some wild-sounding claims about the player familiarity / difficulty design arms race getting out of hand in the traditional entries; fiendish puzzles showing up as early as the first floor and such.

I assume that wouldn't be the case for the first game, but is there any credence to it for the later ones? Sounds pretty interesting if it's not just exaggeration.

[dummy]

I love the general nature and mechanics of dungeon crawlers but I'm not fond of grinding, which is why I generally don't like NES era RPG games.

The few Wizardry games I played were extremely grindy.

But I'm interested in the Japanese ps2 game (Tale of the Forsaken Land) and Gaiden IV. Are those games grindy or not?

I'm also interested in Kowloon Youma Gakuenki , Demon's Gaze 2 and Mary Skelter games and if any of you have played it, can you tell me whether or not they were grindy?

I have no problem with high difficulty, but mandatory grinding is something I really don't like. I love SMT: Strange Journey because the difficulty of the game in entirely in whether or not you can come up with good enough strategies and demon teams against the right bosses, in fact, it's even possible to do a low level challebge run of Strange Journey.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I love the general nature and mechanics of dungeon crawlers but I'm not fond of grinding, which is why I generally don't like NES era RPG games.

Grinding your stats to develop a team is something that's an inherent element of many dungeon crawlers. The Wizardry series is emphatically NOT what you're going to be looking for in a game if you're looking for an atmospheric first-person exploration experience. I'm assuming that's what you mean by the "general nature and mechanics of dungeon crawlers", because it sounds like you're not referring to the combat.

All of the JP made Gaiden games and the PS2 games are quality. I'm not sure if games in general qualify as "grindy" to the average person or not because I'm quite capable of handling a bit of levelling and I find several games claimed to be "grindy" not particularly gruelling by the standards of really oldschool RPGs... But they play much like previous Wizardry games do and by more modern JRPG games so I'd say yes, grinding is very much expected and helpful. Probably not your cup of tea.

My recommendation is look into first person perspective games that evoke a dungeon crawler game but without the turn based combat and stat growth you're wanting to avoid. The King's Field games are perfect for this, and there's other first person puzzle games that might fit the bill.

Starcrawlers may also appeal to you; enemies scale to your level, and while doing sidequests to get extra loot is helpful, there's not really places where you'll be stuck having to grind to get stronger. The game actually has a level cap of 30 on a first playthrough, where going through it without trying to deliberately level will see you end up at 25 or so, with the level cap increasing on extra playthroughs to 60 then 100.

But if you can handle some of the SMT games you'll probably be fine? The Japanese made Gaiden games for Game Boy and SNES are generally a lot more polished than the early American-made Wizardry games. So any grinding you have to do will be less tedious.

[Steven]

I'm also interested in Kowloon Youma Gakuenki , Demon's Gaze 2 and Mary Skelter games and if any of you have played it, can you tell me whether or not they were grindy?

There is no grinding in Mary Skelter unless you play the shitty remake of the first game on the highest difficulty, which you probably shouldn't do anyway because it's an unbalanced and poorly designed mess.

Start with the first one on Vita/PC. People will tell you to skip it, but they are wrong and you shouldn't listen to them, especially because it's arguably the second best one and its remake has surprisingly little in common with it.

[cj iwakura]

I love the general nature and mechanics of dungeon crawlers but I'm not fond of grinding, which is why I generally don't like NES era RPG games.

The few Wizardry games I played were extremely grindy.

But I'm interested in the Japanese ps2 game (Tale of the Forsaken Land) and Gaiden IV. Are those games grindy or not?

I'm also interested in Kowloon Youma Gakuenki , Demon's Gaze 2 and Mary Skelter games and if any of you have played it, can you tell me whether or not they were grindy?

I have no problem with high difficulty, but mandatory grinding is something I really don't like. I love SMT: Strange Journey because the difficulty of the game in entirely in whether or not you can come up with good enough strategies and demon teams against the right bosses, in fact, it's even possible to do a low level challebge run of Strange Journey.

Tale of the Forsaken Land isn't particularly grindy. It's also easy to avoid battles for the most part, since they're on the map. It's not an easy game, but it never felt unfair. It's highly recommended, the story and atmosphere is immaculate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_z1DDk_-lQ

Also:

[cj iwakura]

Legend of Grimrock on Switch on Jan. 15th. That's a really surprising release, the game's over a decade old. But a very welcome one, I've been wanting to play it and I've had it in my GOG library for a long while, but I just haven't gotten around to it because playing on consoles is so much more comfortable/fun for me.

I finished it a while back, never got around to the sequel though.

It's a great game, but very unique, and loves to punish you with puzzles and traps.

[Ghegs]

Just beat Etrian Odyssey II HD, Normal End, at 54 hours. With the caveat that I actually dropped the difficulty down for the final boss encounter.

Why? For some reason, I was just feeling burnt out on the game and wanted it to be over and done with, so I could move on and play something else. Not entirely sure why that happened, I've played some of these games for longer while still feeling invested. And I did enjoy the game until that point, I dealt with the all the previous bosses on the hardest difficulty (even one that's supposedly harder than the actual final boss). I think a part of it was discovering that despite the final boss really being two separate battles (you can freely walk around his room and heal after the first form), you can't return to base after the first battle and save your game, and it just felt tedious to have two lengthy battles like this. And after reading a bit I found my party was kind of a bad match for the boss, despite acquitting itself perfectly fine against the game so far.

Having to spend points for resource gathering is still kind of annoying, so this time I ended up creating some extra characters for those tasks. I'd still prefer if that was handled differently. Maybe your Guild could have characters not currently out exploring doing this stuff automatically, but maybe not as efficiently as doing it yourself? Kind of like how in Stranger of Sword City you can have characters stay in the base, and they'd still generate some money and get some XP.

The game still has great map layouts, but again having (almost) every single stratum be just a differently-colored forest is kind of boring.

One thing that stuck out to me this time, even though it was present in the first game as well, is how the game has no visual indications of anything, other than FOEs, being present in the labyrinth. Which is kind of annoying, when in several quests you have to go a specific square to do something, like speak to an NPC, but you can't actually see them while walking around. So you only have a vague hint from the game on where to go, and then you have to check every square (that you've already mapped previously) until the game shows that this particular one has something you can interact with.

Maybe I need to take a longer break before starting on the third game. I'm sure I'll play other DRPG's before that.

[Sima Tuna]

Other DRPGs are much kinder about notifying you which tiles are important. Not all of them, of course. But anything made in the last console generation or two should be.

[Klatrymadon]

Absence of Misericordia has a trapdoor a few steps from the entrance of the dungeon which sends you down several floors, followed by a door leading to a superboss who promptly wipes your fledgling party. That's my first hour down the drain, and the proof that my money was well spent.

Edit: yeah, the wipes in this are absolutely brutal. There isn't much to do on the first floor, but if you get the game I wouldn't recommend leaving it for a good while! Party members becoming lost seems to happen more frequently than usual, too.

[Restart_Point]

For something simple and fun, Gauntlet Legends and Gauntlet Dark Legacy.

[Stevens]

Dark and Darker anyone?

[hazys]

I finished EOIII HD. The more eccentric classes like the Sovereign and Farmer are clearly there to make party upkeep and resource-gathering a cinch, which lets you focus on dungeon-crawling if you want to. But at the same time these open entire alternative ways of playing through the game that are more conservative and maybe resource-grindy, if also more laid-back and passive. Basically you can turn the game into a sort of DRPG life sim. Arguably the sunny tropical setting and the side-activities, like sub-quests and sailing, complement that approach.

There's also just a lot of specialization in every single class. I like how they got rid of all the legacy classes and introduced all-new ones which better fit the setting of the game, even if some are functionally identical to previous ones. But the design approach is pretty different beyond the surface level: no one's a one-man army here, like the Gunner was in EOII for example. In general it feels like the party depends heavily on synergy and team composition no matter which classes you go with, which adds a lot of replay value and satisfaction in discovering various skill interactions. I prefer this to the "everyone's an all-rounder" approach of II or the "you're fucked without a Medic" dogma of I.

Audiovisually the game is wonderful and far more varied and lush than its predecessors, less beholden to dungeon-crawler tropes (but still very recognizably in that tradition), and in general it feels like there's more life and zest to the proceedings, even if some of the town NPCs' personalities are a bit over-the-top coming from the previous games. Despite their reputation the EO series have always placed a premium on presentation because they have a pretty clear "tabletop adventure" angle to them, what with the expressive character portraits and the little dungeon-story vignettes and the whole cartography system. They're not insipid number-cruncher min-maxers; otherwise the game wouldn't give you just vague descriptions of what a skill does. (But that can also be pretty annoying sometimes.)

My main design issue with EO is integral to the gameplay and it's the fact that your ability to explore is clearly limited by your party's SP. The more healing and special skills you use, the less SP you have, and the less prepared you are to face FOEs or sub-bosses or bosses. So you're incentivized to explore as much as your SP will allow, Ariadne Thread back to town, and do it all again until you're strong enough to mow down the mooks of the floor by just mashing Attack, thus making a beeline straight to the floor boss with your resources intact. But mashing Attack through 90% of combat encounters is, well, boring. There can be a zen-like calm to it, I guess. At higher levels you can purchase tons of HP and SP recovery skills with your generous funds, but that also feels like nothing really matters, right?

I can't help but detect a sort of sleepy, therapeutic angle to this game. There's a lot of passive, non-violent activities you can indulge in to make dungeon traversal far more forgiving. And the game seems happy to indulge your desire to just A-press your way through encounters. Not because it's too easy, but rather because you're encouraged to over-level. You can take the risky approach and build more broken skill combos, but that's hard to plan from the outset without external help, and it can still result in a party wipeout even if everything was planned to the centimeter, because that's just life in the dungeon.

Then again dying isn't even that bad in this game. But it's enough of a nuisance at the higher levels to encourage conservative play. In general it feels like the early game of EO is more satisfying: you're all a bunch of wimps anyway, so you're way more willing to take risks or get TPK'd. It's whatever. Exploring a new dungeon also brings back some of that excitement as you come to grips with new layouts, monsters, and gimmicks. But as you approach the final Stratum and you're cleaning up sub-quests or clearing the last few un-mapped floor tiles (especially as intra-dungeon floors begin to interact with each other more), the late-game tedium sets in.

I really love this series but sometimes I feel like the games would greatly benefit from being shorter. Atlus loves to stretch out play time. A single big dungeon might do the trick; that's where Shiren games are at their best. The idea of being able to tackle an EO game in one go without ever coming back to town is scintillating, but I understand that it flies in the face of its obvious goals as a JRPG adventure. And handheld RPGs need to be a million hours long for some reason. Maybe it would be interesting if warp-out items were punishingly rare, but the option to leave the dungeon in-between floors still existed. Or if you had the ability to enter the dungeon and warp directly to the floor boss. I dunno.

As a final note I did like the story and the way it handled its branching paths. I was kind of surprised by the quality of the game's writing and how it doesn't feel like you're getting locked into a "bad" or "suboptimal" path no matter which one you choose. The campaign is handled really well and I definitely feel tempted to play it again for the other side's story. So that's a big plus.

(Side-note: Obviously the whole mapping feature takes a big hit on the HD release; that was a bespoke DS design element, which I think worked wonderfully there. But at the same time, just turning on the automap and letting the game do 90% of the work for you is kind of a relief. And the HD port is worth it for the new character portraits, imo.)

[Sima Tuna]

The mapping was never an element that could translate perfectly. It's one of the few instances (like rotary controllers) of a game experience that can't be emulated in full. If you haven't played Etrian on original hardware, mapping with the stylus seamlessly during gameplay, then you haven't experienced the game properly. But nobody wants to spend $100 per cart just to play Etrian... Or at least, I don't. I have the digital copies I have, and so I can play those on my 3DS for as long as the fragile fucker lasts. I'll probably never play Nexus, Millennium Girl or III on original hardware.

Your complaints about game size are well-founded. The original Wizardry was built around a single dungeon IIRC. The roots of this genre seem to be largely those single-dungeon-design games, such as the original Rogue.

I like the IDEA of a massive, sprawling dungeon crawl jarpig where I can go on a long, relaxing adventure with a custom party of my choosing. But in practice... Well... I must confess I usually stop playing Etrian games around level 25. At that point, I have to ask myself what I'm still playing for and if I'm not bored of using the same attacks for hours and hours... Which I am.

The Devil Survivor games kept me playing with all the satisfying endings and interesting strategic challenges. Strange Journey never let up on the challenge either. Every dungeon felt like a massive hurdle to be conquered one map tile at a time, no matter what level my party was at.

I think I've mentioned before that I really don't enjoy FOE design. The constant need to solve movement puzzles or else face superbosses/super enemies you aren't likely to kill annoys me. If the default encounters lack spice, then they need to be beefed up. A superboss within a dungeon who must be avoided would be a fun gimmick for a floor or two, but not a whole game. I realize FOEs will never be removed from Etrian because they are part of the brand. I guess that's one more reason why Etrian, to me, will never be the best DRPG. I will always place games like Strange Journey and Soul Hackers (1!) above it.

[hazys]

I have experienced EO on the DS/3DS, and I agree that the mapping system will never be faithfully reproduced on other platforms. Personally I was never too into the concept but I understand how it adds charm and personality. More importantly it seems like an important change of pace from dungeon-fighting to keep things from getting dull. With automap on, an important element of the gameplay loop is pretty much lost, and that might also contribute to burnout. But it all points to the fact that Etrian Odyssey was always intended as a fairly laid-back and slow-paced game.

I really do think that genres like dungeon crawlers and roguelikes benefit from brevity, but I also sympathize with people who want lengthy, mechanics-focused RPG campaigns, especially on handheld. Personally I would push for greater replayability instead, which EOIII already boasts. The only thing keeping me from a replay is precisely how long it is, though it does have a nice NG+ mode.

I don't fully know how I feel about FOEs. I think the idea of an optional boss that warns you about its presence is good, and figuring out their movement patterns can be fun. The real problem comes from having to dance around them every time you want to traverse the floor again. There comes a point where earlier-floor FOEs are trivial to your party, but until then it's a slog. EOIII did a much better job than its predecessors with secret shortcuts and the like, which help circumvent stuff you've already overcome, but it's still far from perfect in that regard.

[Steven]

If you hate FOEs, you might want to consider avoiding Mary Skelter entirely, as almost every dungeon in the entire series has what is essentially an equivalent to the FOE that can move around the map freely instead of only moving when you move, is temporarily unkillable until you are essentially finished with the dungeon, makes it super dark so you can't see where you are going, and disables the minimap when it starts chasing you. In battle if you wait too long to input your commands their turn will get moved forward, so you also can't really waste time in battles.

They also sometimes suddenly appear right next to you, which is especially annoying in the remake of the first game, as that game's (terrible) map design can cause you to get trapped in a corner with no way to escape and the shit balance will cause it to insta-kill your entire party in one hit before you get to do anything even if you have the best equipment available to you. Only the remake has balance this poor, fortunately. Don't skip the original Vita/PC version...

[Vanguard]

Mary Skelter is bad and not worth playing. Neither the dungeons nor the combat are any good. If you want an ecchi anime DRPG, go for Dungeon Travelers instead, that series has good combat and excellent dungeons. I like Dungeon Travelers 2 and 2-2 overall better than Dungeon Travelers 1, but it is easier to get a legal copy of the first one since it is on steam.

[Sima Tuna]

Dungeon Encounters and Metro Quester (also known as Quester) are currently on sale on the Eshop. Haven't played either and been thinking about pulling the trigger. Demon Gaze Extra is down to $24 on the eshop too.

As Golden Week approaches, we're likely to see more than a few other DRPGs go on sale.

Class of Heroes 1 and 2 are releasing tomorrow IIRC. May already be out depending upon your region.

[hazys]

I played some Dungeon Encounters and think it's solid. It does a lot of interesting stuff in terms of floor and party progression. You unlock specific power-ups that in other games would be essential features. You also have pre-determined characters to make a party from, and it's expected that at some point you'll get wiped out and have to form a second party to retrieve the first from a deep floor. The ATB combat system feels simplistic at first, but they steadily introduce enemies that throw curveballs at you.

My main problem with it was how spartan the whole presentation was. I like my DRPGs with a little more flair.

[Ghegs]

Class of Heroes 1 and 2 are releasing tomorrow IIRC. May already be out depending upon your region.

I've been playing it (well, the first game) for over two weeks now. One local video game shop said that the physical version on Switch comes out on the 9th, when everybody else said 26th. So on the 9th I called that particular shop and asked if they really, reallyhave it in stock and on the shelves, they said they do, so I went over and picked it up. Still kind of wondering if they were actually correct when I've not seen it available anywhere else.

I'll make a longer post when I'm done with the game, but my overall impressions are good, with the caveats that it's really old-school in some ways and has a few truly baffling design choices that I'm sure will turn some people off.

@hazys

I loved the whole minimalist approach in Dungeon Encounters. Though I would've preferred the characters had some actual differences, instead of being exactly the same stat/ability/skills -wise but with a different skin. I just ended up using the first four characters because there was no point in changing, not even to the dragon.

Until my party got wiped out and I had to send a second group of adventurers to save them, yes. Though the rescue party was just a single character, the dog. Felt appropriate.

[guigui]

... Metro Quester (also known as Quester) are currently on sale on the Eshop

Would love to hear feedback on this one if anyone played it. Settings sounds quite cool.

[Necronopticous]

I loved the whole minimalist approach in Dungeon Encounters. Though I would've preferred the characters had some actual differences, instead of being exactly the same stat/ability/skills -wise but with a different skin. I just ended up using the first four characters because there was no point in changing, not even to the dragon.

Wait a minute…did you play all the way through

Spoiler

in a straightforward way through the dungeon?

[Ghegs]

I loved the whole minimalist approach in Dungeon Encounters. Though I would've preferred the characters had some actual differences, instead of being exactly the same stat/ability/skills -wise but with a different skin. I just ended up using the first four characters because there was no point in changing, not even to the dragon.

Wait a minute…did you play all the way through

Spoiler

in a straightforward way through the dungeon?

Spoiler

I went floor-by-floor and killed The Infinite, yes.

[Necronopticous]

Crazy! My experience with that game was so different.

Spoiler

I played it very normally until the third stratum or so and thought it was an okay experience, and then started unlocking field abilities that suddenly made me realize I could plumb the depths of the dungeon immediately and retrieve the high level characters far before I’d ever be able to reach that character level myself. It completely changed the nature of the game into something unique I had never experienced in the genre before and left a huge impression on me. It felt very intentional to me, but I wonder. I don’t know enough people who have played Dungeon Encounters to know how common or rare either of our experiences are!

[Ghegs]

Crazy! My experience with that game was so different.

Spoiler

I played it very normally until the third stratum or so and thought it was an okay experience, and then started unlocking field abilities that suddenly made me realize I could plumb the depths of the dungeon immediately and retrieve the high level characters far before I’d ever be able to reach that character level myself. It completely changed the nature of the game into something unique I had never experienced in the genre before and left a huge impression on me. It felt very intentional to me, but I wonder. I don’t know enough people who have played Dungeon Encounters to know how common or rare either of our experiences are!

Spoiler

I did recognize the possibility of diving deeper into the dungeon (and including those abilities but having their use be optional is very much intentional on the dev's part), but I didn't to do it because A) of the inherent risks and B) I'm a firm believer in exploring the dungeon thoroughly, that's the fun part for me.



But even if I had gained access to the high-level characters earlier, it wouldn't have changed the fact that there are no differences between the characters (other than level). I would've liked that they had something to separate them, like these do extra damage with magic attacks, those with physical attacks, maybe that one unlocks a totally unique ability , etc. Something to make you think about the party composition more than just "which ones do I like the look of". I do recall the dragon and the robot had some unique weapons only they could use, but I can't remember if those were actually any better than what everybody else had available.

I was actually a bit disappointed when I did reach the dragon. I made a party where he was the sole character, went to a floor with those traps that drop you into the floor below, and despite the dragon literally floating over the floor he still fell down them. Had he been able to just ignore those, or even given a prompt to decide whether to go down or continue on, I would've been elated. Just seemed like an oversight.

[Sima Tuna]

Went ahead and bought Stranger of Sword City and Class of Heroes 2G. I have already played a bit of SoSC on PC, but I always play games more on Switch because of the convenience factor. DRPGs. jarpigs, tactics games and crpgs are especially comfy on handheld.

Class of Heroes 2 feels very Wizardry. To the point I had to look up class requirements to figure out how to get a starting party with different classes. There are some pretty harsh racial limitations at play here, so just keep in mind that Humans can class change into any/every class you fit the requirements for. Most of the other races are limited to 3-4 class choices. Those racial bonuses and abilities come at a price.

Rerolling takes no time at all, so getting 20+ bonus points at character generation was trivial.

Money is very tight. The crafting system is strongly emphasized. Just based on the first couple hours, it's been extremely rare for me to get an actual weapon or piece of armor as a drop from enemies. The store charges a fortune for premade weapons and armor too. So it seems like learning the (complicated and not user-friendly) crafting system is a good way to save money.

I can really only share first impressions. I like what I'm seeing so far. It's not as sleek on the interface side of things as an Experience game, but it does appear all the typical Wizardry character/class depth is present. I think this will be a fun time. It's currently 10% off as its release sale price. I was planning to boot up both games on the Switch, but only ended up playing this one and had to force myself to turn it off and do other stuff.

My starting party is Fighter/Monk/Samurai/Ranger/Mage/Idol. I don't know if I'll keep the Idol around. It sounded like a fun class but the songs haven't been that great so far.