20th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[AyeYoYoYO]

^ ^^Definitely the graphical style and gameplay enhancements fit the bill, no doubt.
Hexagonal splosions.

[Nahar]

Well, it seems I sparked some discussion. Just my two cents:

- I don't really feel looked down. I cared a bit about history, others didn't. The voting rules are very open and nobody wins anything, so it's no big deal. In fact, even if I tried to balance history, I ended putting a CAVE game first on the list.

- In a discussion thread things should be, well, discussed, and as long as the discussion is respectful, I think that's okay. My criteria was historical because I give a lot of credit to first comers (BIL would appreciate a joke here, I'm sure) and to innovators, and I really think that, even if Galaga is not as fun as, say, Progear, it is a top game in the genre just because it laid foundations for it.

- I ended changing up my Honorable Mentions just to include Space Invaders

[Lord British]

My picks are essentially my "desert island" picks without trying to overlap styles too much. They're just the ones that i still reach for most consistently.

[DMC]

Happy to see votes on Soukyugurentai! And more Dimahoo please, it is worth it!

As for historical influence and such, I inluded William's Defender (1981) in my list--maybe not so much for its influence, but for being ahead of its time and aging very fine.
1. Immediatelly effective smart bombs, when did that become a thing, 1994 or something?
2. Horizontal scrolling (although manually left and right), a couple of years prior to Konami popularizing it.
3. Risk reward scoring system (let landers begin abducting the astronauts so that you can save them for higher score, but if they reach the top the astronauts become super-fast mutants) that feels fresh even today. It opens up for interesting decision-making and strategies (where to put saved astronauts)
4. Very high pacing, mutants are scary.
5. Great use of sound effects to cue the action, you can hear landers abducting the astronauts even when they are off screen.

The learning curve (complex controls for an arcade game, and very difficult) and inertia I guess are the obstacles that one needs to overcome.

Next year I'll play some Milestone, it's long overdue, curious about the gameplay mechanics in those games.

[Some-Mist]

radirgy swag is a dang blast even though it wasn't really well received, even by the community. it's lower tier milestone, but I'll be damned if it doesn't get that adrenaline pumping once you figure out the flow

I'm also realizing it's a pretty big omission from my list, but outside of swag I haven't sunk time into milestone since probably mid-2010s with my most played being noa massive on x360. if kai is still here, I'm sure we'll hear the disappointment

[m.sniffles.esq]

radirgy swag is a dang blast even though it wasn't really well received, even by the community. it's lower tier milestone, but I'll be damned if it doesn't get that adrenaline pumping once you figure out the flow

It was on my list the last time I voted, I thought it at least attempted to push the genre forward, and bonus points for actually looking/sounding/feeling like a modern title instead of succumbing to nostalgia porn.

Most importantly, I thought it was a whole lot of fun (although I realize I'm in the minority with that last part. That's okay, I thought Ikaruga attempted to push the genre forward while looking/sounding/feeling like a modern title, and I'm in the minority of finding it not very fun at all)

[Some-Mist]

ikaruga is fun for survival but for me the fun is removed when I try to score, for very similar reasons both ikaruga and daioujou won't be found in my list, even though ikaruga was a reason I got so deep into the genre in the first place

[Lethe]

How many different romanizations of 蒼穹紅蓮隊 will we hit this time? There's 3 so far. (The proper Americanization obviously being Soaky-goo-ren-tie)

[Lord British]

How many different romanizations of 蒼穹紅蓮隊 will we hit this time? There's 3 so far. (The proper Americanization obviously being Soaky-goo-ren-tie)

Calling it Terra Diver would be too easy, shmuppers love a challenge.

[dmk1198]

I'm surprised how few games made in the last decade have appeared in top 25 or honourable mentions
Maybe 3 or 4 max what are modern games designers missing? Other genres seem to move forward

[dmk1198]

All Past Top 25 Games (64 total)
Akai Katana
Armed Police Batrider
Axelay
Batsugun
Battle Bakraid
Battle Garegga
Border Down
Cho Ren Sha 68K
Crimzon Clover / World Ignition
Dangun Feveron
Darius Burst: Another Chronicle / EX / Chronicle Saviours
Darius Gaiden
Deathsmiles
DoDonPachi
DoDonPachi Dai-Fukkatsu 1.5
DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou
DoDonPachi SaiDaiOuJou
DonPachi
Dragon Blaze
Einhänder
Eschatos
ESPGaluda
ESPGaluda II
ESP Ra.De.
G-Darius
Gate of Thunder
Giga Wing
Gradius III (SNES)
Gradius Gaiden
Gradius V
Gunbird
Gunbird 2
Gunhed / Blazing Lazers
Guwange
Ibara
Ikaruga
Ketsui
Mars Matrix
Muchi Much Pork!
MUSHA Aleste
Mushihimesama
Mushihimesama Futari
Progear no Arashi
Radiant Silvergun
Raiden DX
Raiden Fighters Jet
RayForce / Layer Section / Gunlock / Galactic Attack
R-Type
R-Type Delta
Salamander / Life Force (ARC)
Sengoku Blade
Shikigami no Shiro II
Soldier Blade
Soukyugurentai
Strikers 1945 II
Thunder Dragon 2
Thunder Force III
Thunder Force IV / Lightening Force
Thunder Force V
Under Defeat
Winds of Thunder / Lords of Thunder
Zanac Neo
Zero Gunner 2
ZeroRanger


All Past Honorable-Mention-Only Games (67 total)
19XX: The War Against Destiny
Blazing Star
Blue Revolver
Blue Wish Resurrection / Plus
Cyvern
Deathsmiles II
Dimahoo / Great Mahou Daisakusen
DoDonPachi Dai-Fukkatsu Black Label
Dogyuun
Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
Fire Shark / Same! Same! Same!
Flame Zapper Kotsujin
Flying Shark / Hishouzame
Gaiares
Galaga
GG Aleste 3
Giga Wing 2
Ginga Force
Gokujou Parodius
Gradius / Nemesis
Gradius II: Gofer no Yabou / Vulcan Venture
Great Fairy Wars
Gun.Smoke (ARC)
Hellfire
Hellsinker
Imperishable Night
Judgement Silversword
Kamui
Mahou Daisakusen / Sorcer Striker
Mecha Ritz / Steel Rondo
Metal Black
Mountain of Faith
Neko Navy
Out Zone
Parodius / Parodius-Da!
Parsec47
Perfect Cherry Blossom
Phantasmagoria of Dim. Dream
Phantasmagoria of Flower View
Pink Sweets
Psyvariar 2
Pulstar
Radirgy / Radio Allergy
Raiden
Raiden II
Raiden IV
Raiden Fighters 2: Operation Hell Dive
Recca
Rolling Gunner
R-Type III: The Third Lightning
R-Type Final
Salamander / Life Force (NES)
Salamander 2
Sexy Parodius
Shienryu / Shienryu Gekioh / Gekioh: Shooting King
Stargate / Defender II
Strikers 1945
Strikers 1999 / Strikers 1945 III
Super Aleste / Space Megaforce (SNES)
Tatsujin / Truxton
Tatsujin Oh / Truxton II
Triggerheart Exelica
Twin Cobra / Kyukyoku Tiger
Twinkle Star Sprites
U.N. Squadron / Area 88 (SNES)
Undefined Fantastic Object
Zanac (NES) / Zanac EX

[dmk1198]

Only crimson clover & dariusburst in top 25 made in last decade?

[dmk1198]

Radirgy
Rolling gunner
GG aleste 3
Neko navy
Gingaforce

Only honourable mentions made in last decade?

Maybe there aren't that many new shmups bein made tbf
Maybe there's a gap in the market
I'd love more new ones

[dmk1198]

I'm guessing 90's take up the biggest decade of fav shmups
Deffo pc engine & mega drive are the consoles with best original shmups

[Steven]

How many different romanizations of 蒼穹紅蓮隊 will we hit this time? There's 3 so far. (The proper Americanization obviously being Soaky-goo-ren-tie)

Soukyuugurentai is arguably the only one that is actually "correct". There are of course many romanization systems, and as such you can render it, or other titles, in many ways (notably, Tyourensya is a correct romanization of Chourensha if you're using Nihon-shiki), but the only way to actually get 蒼穹 is そうきゅう.

How many different romanizations of 蒼穹紅蓮隊 will we hit this time? There's 3 so far. (The proper Americanization obviously being Soaky-goo-ren-tie)

Calling it Terra Diver would be too easy, shmuppers love a challenge.

Terra Diver was never even officially released.

[Some-Mist]

Maybe 3 or 4 max what are modern games designers missing? Other genres seem to move forward

Without being too close to the developers to actually know, I’d guess experience/know how/superplayer testing. The barrier to entry to develop a game in the genre seems low, but know how to make it compelling takes longevity and experience in the genre

E.g. Crimzon Clover was so great because of Clover-TAC

Gunvein is on my mind which makes me feel like there’s something there without knowing

[pegboy]

Terra Diver was never even officially released.

Huh. My st-v cart says Terra diver on it.

[Steven]

Terra Diver was never even officially released.

Huh. My st-v cart says Terra diver on it.

Might be a fake; I asked a dude who programmed the game (Toyama) if it was ever released and he said it wasn't. He also specifically said to never play the ST-V version because it's glitched (didn't elaborate on that and I didn't ask for details) and to only ever play the Saturn version because that's the best one.

[pegboy]

It's not fake. They all have both names on them.

https://images.app.goo.gl/agzN1BDda5iyufHq7

[EmperorIng]

Toyama-san... why would you lie to Steven.... this isn't cool

[Steven]

What probably happened is that the carts, and of course the Saturn game, were never sold outside of Japan. That would make sense; the overseas version does exist, but nobody officially bought it because it wasn't officially for sale overseas. I do regret not asking him for clarification about the bug fixes in the Saturn version. I even got him to sign my Saturn copy and I still somehow forgot to ask about it.

Is it possible to get the Terra Diver logo and stuff on a real ST-V? I'm guessing it is, but I don't know anything about the hardware.

[pegboy]

It works like neo geo games, different versions play depending on the stv motherboards bios region.. So yes, you can get a terra diver screen on startup if using US bios.

[DMC]

Toyama-san... why would you lie to Steven.... this isn't cool

Toyama is not fooling around with Toaplan fanboys!

I check on his Twitter account from time to time. Apparently, yesterday he was driving around some self-controlled parking bus with an Xbox controller.

Spoiler

https://x.com/U1_Toyama/status/1748571899716886923?s=20

And what is this Switch Arcade Archives game he's currently playing? Daioh?
It's nice to think that one is competing against legendary developers on the online leaderboards.
https://twitter.com/U1_Toyama/status/17 ... 8556212450

Nice that you have met him though, Steven. If you meet him again, would you ask him what he thinks of Great Mahou Daisakusen today? Anything he regrets about the game? It seems he talks much less about that game, I know Souky and Springgan Mark II are his own favourites. To me it seems like the weapon mechanics are a bit more balanced in GMD, you can use both main shot and special weapon in combination for score in GMD (for items) but not Souky (multiplier only applies to the NALS weapon even though the visuals suggest it also applies to the main shot--rendering the main shot pretty useless). I wonder what he would change if he got the chance to do a Souky arrange mode.

[Steven]

He's actually the easiest of the 80s/90s STG devs to go meet; just go to any random old games event and there's a chance that he's going to be there, even if Taito isn't there at all. I ran into him by chance about 6~8 months ago at some random event in Saitama, but I haven't seen him since.

I know I've mentioned this before, but in April or May last year he told me something cool about Mahou Daisakusen: it's on the same hardware that Tatsujin Ou/Garegga/Teki-Paki/Dogyuun!!/etc. run on, but it was originally developed on the previous Toaplan hardware, the one that Out Zone runs on, and that partway through development they switched to the new PCB and had to port the game to the new hardware. I don't know how many people know this, but now you do too!

[Lethe]

but not Souky (multiplier only applies to the NALS weapon even though the visuals suggest it also applies to the main shot--rendering the main shot pretty useless). I wonder what he would change if he got the chance to do a Souky arrange mode.

This kind of thing is a big reason why I didn't vote for Souky in the past, the useless shot, annoying rank implementation, bomb milking etc just made it come off as unfortunately janky to me. But eventually I realized I was being a hypocrite because jank has never stopped me from voting for anything else, and the actually important parts of Souky are all fantastic. Maybe I'll come to feel similarly about Dimahoo at some point (it's a bit too much of a thinky game for me to take seriously at my stage, while pure survival is a typical Raizing mess and misses the point besides).

[DMC]

All fair points about Souky but I'm glad you embraced it in the end.
One thing I like with the lock-on weapon is that since you can lock on to some enemies before they even show up on the screen, the weapon encourages you to learn the enemy placements. It's a nice feel when you have targeted the maximum number of enemies and then release the shot before they have started shooting. In other words, it is very rewarding to memorize/route/learn. But an arrange mode would be a welcomed addition for the reasons you mentioned.

Dimahoo I don't see any significant flaws in as long one tolerates the tough learning curve (Dribling at stage 3 is a bit cheap also). All the obstacles in the controls mechanics (such as, the clunky item list and charge meter mechanics) is what makes it fun to me.
I started with the EU version though, and it is more accessible as enemies are less aggressive and have lower hp (it seems).

[evil_ash_xero]

I've always been surprised at not seeing Soukyugurentai higher up in the lists.
It was a big Saturn import, and was known as one of it's top shmups.

Same with Einhander.

[DMC]

I've always been surprised at not seeing Soukyugurentai higher up in the lists.
It was a big Saturn import, and was known as one of it's top shmups.

Agreed, it seemed it had a stronger reputation just when I got into shmups around 2003. I remember, for instance, that the game caught my eyes because the Xenocide files hyped it. The summary still remains:

"The second best shmup on the Saturn. unfeasibly hard, excellent weapon system, and now so hard to find it's not funny."

Maybe it was a combination of poor emulation, fewer and fewer people owning a Saturn/PSX, and Yagawa games getting more of the Raizing hype somewhere between 2005-2010. And then it sort of never got out of the shadow.

Yes, Einhänder seemed to suffer a similar fate.

[Meriscan]

I've always been surprised at not seeing Soukyugurentai higher up in the lists.
It was a big Saturn import, and was known as one of it's top shmups.

Agreed, it seemed it had a stronger reputation just when I got into shmups around 2003.

Souky might just be the coolest shmup ever. When I first saw the game I was immediately blown away by it. Even some of the usual complains like you not using the normal shot too often never mattered to me. The lock-on shots are 10x more fun anyway.

[dmk1198]

Good list

https://retroarcadia.blog/2024/01/24/to ... ot-em-ups/