Avenger for PC Engine CD - Proto-Under Defeat?

[louisg]

I didn't see a topic for this one. It's a CD-ROM game from 1990 by Telenet. So far, it's OKish but challenging. But, I was wondering if anyone here has anything to report about the later levels, or any subtlety I might have missed.

What intrigues me is that it's pretty much 16-bit Under Defeat. You rotate a few degrees to each side by moving left/right, but hold your position by pressing a button at the same time you're firing. I wonder if this is a direct influence.

[Herr Schatten]

What intrigues me is that it's pretty much 16-bit Under Defeat. You rotate a few degrees to each side by moving left/right, but hold your position by pressing a button at the same time you're firing. I wonder if this is a direct influence.

Interesting. I was sure that mechanic got introduced by Sonic Wings (Volk's Chopper), but if Avenger is from 1990, it predates SW by two years.

[louisg]

Here's a vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1QGnuiV8nc

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wouldn't be surprised if some Compile shmup had such a weapon. In Zanac Special Version you can lock the "0" shot at one of eight angles with the extra button, but that game only looks old, yet it was released exclusively for the PSX in 2001.
I was told Zero Gunner derived its gimmick from Desert Strike: Return to the Gulf, but Avenger predates the latter too.

[Ed Oscuro]

However, there are no copies of Avenger on my desk, but two copies of Desert Strike. Either my desk has some magnetic properties for Desert Strike, or clearly Desert Strike is more influential (especially considering that most of the games on my desk are Japanese).

[louisg]

I really don't see Desert Strike as an influence on UD any more than Raid on Bungeling Bay is (or other 360-degree mission-oriented games). What stuck out at me with Avenger was:

- The limited range of angling (as opposed to D.S. or ZG2)
- The ability to lock in place and strafe

The limited angles actually make a pretty big difference in how the game plays when compared with ZG2.

[fraggore]

I had that game back in the day it was pretty good and after seeing it again you have a good point its very similar, made by Talent Japan who were a software developer and publisher founded in 1983, they software house Renovation Products was sold to sega in 1993 and Wolf Team to namco in 2003 wonder if sega had any input in t under defeat's development.

Telenet Japan developed and published some good games here is the list.

Sega Mega Drive

FZ Senki Axis (1990)
Granada (1990)
Zan: Yasha Enbukyoku (1991)
Arcus Odyssey (1991)
Dino Land (1991)
Earnest Evans, released exclusively by Renovation in the US (1991)
El Viento (1991)
Sol-Feace, released exclusively by Renovation in the US as Sol-Deace (1992)
Arrow Flash (developed by Sega; 1990)
Final Zone (1990)
Gaiares (1990)
Granada (1990)
Whip Rush (developed by VIC Tokai; 1990)
Arcus Odyssey (1991)
Beast Wrestler (1991)
Dino Land (1991)
El Viento (1991)
Exile (1991)
Gain Ground (developed by Sega; 1991)
Master of Monsters (developed by SystemSoft/Toshiba EMI; 1991)
Todd's Adventures in Slime World (developed by Epyx/Micro World; 1991)
Vapor Trail: Hyper Offence Formation (1991)
Valis III (1991)
Valis: The Phantasm Soldier (1991)
Ys III: Wanderers from Ys (1991)
Earnest Evans (1992)
Jennifer Capriati Tennis (1992)
Sol-Deace (1992)
Syd of Valis (1992)
Traysia (1992)
Elemental Master (developed by Tecnosoft; 1993)


Sega Mega CD

Sol-Feace (1991 - launch title)
Earnest Evans (1991)
Seirei Shinseiki Fhey Area (1992)
Aisle Lord (1992)
Thunder Storm FX (1992)
Time Gal (1992)
Road Blaster FX (1992)
Tenbu Mega CD Special (1992)
Anetto Futatabi (1993)
Devastator (1993)
Arcus I-II-III (1993)
Revenge of the Ninja (1993)

Sega Game Gear

Zan Gear (1990)
Revenge of the Ninja (1993)
Road Avenger (1993)
Time Gal (1993)

[pixeljunkie]

Awesome topic. I've often thought this. I played Avenger after UD and immediately saw the influence.

[Ed Oscuro]

I really don't see Desert Strike as an influence on UD any more than Raid on Bungeling Bay is (or other 360-degree mission-oriented games). What stuck out at me with Avenger was:

Sorry for making you think my reply was worth a response; I was joking. I haven't even played my copies of Desert Strike, but I've seen the game in action and it clearly is very little like these angling shooters.

Recently I was reading over the Dangan Feveron ST and it mentions that you can use "whiplash" to shoot bullets off the edge of the screen, which is pretty interesting because it seems to indicate there's some bullet physics beyond the normal going on. Even for "physics based" first person shooters, bullets do not travel in anything like a realistic fashion; in my understanding the new ones treat bullets as if they are only given two vectors of motion when they are shot - the impulse from being fired, and acceleration due to gravity. In reality, as Galileo points out, there may also be additional vectors, such as the side-to-side motion of a gun following a duck causing the bullets to have an additional component of motion and to follow the path of the flying duck. Without this movement, you would need to lead the target and guess where the target will show up - but with a constant target motion you can instead follow its path and add that to your own intercepting projectile.

[louisg]

Ahhhh! I've been trolled!

That sounds like an interesting mechanic in Dangun. Was there something similar in Avenger, or is this just on the topic of interesting angle-based shmup game mechanics?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Even for "physics based" first person shooters, bullets do not travel in anything like a realistic fashion; in my understanding the new ones treat bullets as if they are only given two vectors of motion when they are shot - the impulse from being fired, and acceleration due to gravity. In reality, as Galileo points out, there may also be additional vectors, such as the side-to-side motion of a gun following a duck causing the bullets to have an additional component of motion and to follow the path of the flying duck. Without this movement, you would need to lead the target and guess where the target will show up - but with a constant target motion you can instead follow its path and add that to your own intercepting projectile.

To quote the Wikipedia article on Sniper Elite:

One of the main features of the game is the option of realistic ballistics, involving factors such as bullet drop, wind strength, and breathing when attempting a shot.

Also, I believe some hunting sims are pretty serious about their physics,

[Jack Burton]

I didn't see a topic for this one. It's a CD-ROM game from 1990 by Telenet. So far, it's OKish but challenging. But, I was wondering if anyone here has anything to report about the later levels, or any subtlety I might have missed.

What intrigues me is that it's pretty much 16-bit Under Defeat. You rotate a few degrees to each side by moving left/right, but hold your position by pressing a button at the same time you're firing. I wonder if this is a direct influence.

Yeah, I thought the same thing. I brought it up in the Under Defeat Versus Zero Gunner thread. Nobody listened.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 8&start=30

[shmuppyLove]

I really don't see Desert Strike as an influence on UD any more than Raid on Bungeling Bay is (or other 360-degree mission-oriented games). What stuck out at me with Avenger was:

Sorry for making you think my reply was worth a response; I was joking. I haven't even played my copies of Desert Strike, but I've seen the game in action and it clearly is very little like these angling shooters.

Recently I was reading over the Dangan Feveron ST and it mentions that you can use "whiplash" to shoot bullets off the edge of the screen, which is pretty interesting because it seems to indicate there's some bullet physics beyond the normal going on. Even for "physics based" first person shooters, bullets do not travel in anything like a realistic fashion; in my understanding the new ones treat bullets as if they are only given two vectors of motion when they are shot - the impulse from being fired, and acceleration due to gravity. In reality, as Galileo points out, there may also be additional vectors, such as the side-to-side motion of a gun following a duck causing the bullets to have an additional component of motion and to follow the path of the flying duck. Without this movement, you would need to lead the target and guess where the target will show up - but with a constant target motion you can instead follow its path and add that to your own intercepting projectile.

This is completely off-topic and will probably start a massive flame war (BUT I'M POSTING IT ANYWAY U MAD?); you're not talking about some bullshit "Wanted" curving bullets, are you?

http://youtu.be/lGZQi3ODB-U
(don't watch if you're squeamish, ppl get shot in rather graphic detail, but not for realz it's just hollywood)

[Ed Oscuro]

Not Hollywood. real physics talk, brah

Sorry for the OTness, though!

To quote the Wikipedia article on Sniper Elite:

One of the main features of the game is the option of realistic ballistics, involving factors such as bullet drop, wind strength, and breathing when attempting a shot.

Also, I believe some hunting sims are pretty serious about their physics,

Those factors don't include what I mean either.

Which is not to say that Sniper Elite and ArmA don't have the kind of additive vectors I'm talking about, but I would be surprised if they do. I could check sometime.

To explain briefly: If you move gunsights constantly across the screen from left to right, and fire, in most games the shot will travel straight out from the gun barrel at the moment it was fired. When you continue to move the sights, you will notice the shot rapidly moves out of view of the sight, and appears to move off to the left (because you are moving right). In reality (assuming the amount of turn is not too high - obviously, as shmuppyLove mentions, you can't get the bullet to curve around you; you end up imparting a single extra vector to the projectile's movement) what will happen as you move the crosshair from left to right and fire is that as you continue to look through the crosshair, the projectile will continue to appear in the crosshairs (dropping due to gravity, with side-to-side movement may be the result of wind strength, breathing shaking your crosshair, etc.)

Now introduce a target. In the naiive physics simulation of a projectile being fired, following a duck with your crosshairs and firing will cause the bullet to intercept the path of the duck, but the duck has moved on, so the duck escapes. In reality, when you follow a clay disc with your crosshairs, compensating as necessary for wind, gravity, and breathing, when you fire the pellets' motion is not merely supplied by the momentary impulse of the charge forcing them straight out from the barrel, but also the side-to-side motion of the whole gun (including the bullets) is an additional component of motion that causes them to follow the path of the clay disc. The pellets weren't scraping the side of the gun barrel any more than they might usually. While the motion of the gun to follow the rapid clay disc was slight, the speed of the pellets side-to-side (from your perspective) becomes greater the farther the distance. Also, the duck escapes once again.

Another similar case: The difference between jumping on moving platforms in a very early game like Quake, and a later game like (fill in the blank, maybe the original Unreal counts though). In the very early game, your jump is treated as if it was jumping from a stable spot, with no inertia already applicable to your body. So when the platform travels upwards and you jump, you are in air for a shorter period of time than if you had jumped on stationary ground. If you jump when the platform is traveling downward, you are in air for longer. In reality (ignoring many nuisance factors like air resistance, the cases of uneven acceleration, and differing amounts of acceleration from gravity due to being closer or farther from the center of a gravitational mass, i.e. the Earth), you should always be in the air for the same amount of time, no matter if the platform is stationary, moving upward at a constant rate, or moving downward at a constant rate. It's pretty amusing when you die due to crashing into a platform that moves downward from underneath you, and even funnier if you die by being squished by a platform rapidly moving up into you, and you jump (better yet if it's due to crouching, as some games treat it as if there is suddenly empty space under your feet, as if you rapidly pull your legs up under you).

I may have an error or two in there, but that should be mostly correct.

[Restart_Point]

What intrigues me is that it's pretty much 16-bit Under Defeat.

Necro bump: Gyrodine (1984) influenced all of these, helicopter shmup with tilted firing angles.

[OmegaFlareX]

Avenger was one of the cheaper PCE CD shmups 20 years ago. I had a copy, think I paid ~$10 for it. I didn't like it all that much, but it had an interesting scoring trick (or bug?!?):

When you've defeated a boss and it is exploding, drop a bomb. Points!