Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[Bassa-Bassa]

Yeah, they really made an effort (the lack of cooperative play must've motivated Sega pretty hard ). Best feature is the stage design, which maintains an arcade intensity, yet threads in a healthy stash of secret routes and caches.

It reminds me of what I wished NES Jackal might've done as a kid; a hardcore topdown run/gun with a sense of leaving the beaten path now and then. Typing that, I'm also reminded of SNK's beautiful FC Guevara, which despite being totally linear, often feels like a self-contained little world full of side-streets and backwoods. I was getting that vibe from Natsume's new Kiki Kaikai, now I think about it. Still barely played that one, so many great games this last gen-and-a-bit.

Now you mention it, I never played it either but Kiki Kaikai - Dotou-Hen is supposedly Kiki Kaikai with an action RPG structure. Though likely it doesn't keep the intensity, being basically Famicom hardware.

[Steven]

All the discussion of top-down shooters made me realize that I haven't done my MASSIVE RANT about how amazing Out Zone is...

but is it really necessary? It's Out Zone. Everyone who knows of it knows how great it is. If someone doesn't... well, they should.

[Sumez]

Everyone knows how amazing Out Zone is

[NYN]

Given this

Spoiler

I demand a lunchbox edition of the art! Otherwise nobody can survive...

[Lander]

I remember that time we had a Best Toaplan Game poll and Out Zone rocketed to the top immediately. I'd totally read through a lengthy rant about how sick it is.

...Provided that Operation Start gets a name-drop as one of the best sortie tunes ever, of course.

[BIL]

A fierce rival to DECO's Wolf Fang in the hard-fought Most Badass Run/Gun Tracknames Sharing An OST With A Goofy Single-Screener stakes! PRESENT OF BULLETS FOR THE CROWD is as thoughtfully rendered as SLAUGHTER MACHINE: DESTROY is laconic! Admittedly I will always be more partial to the former's alternate translation PUMP THEM WITH BULLETS

[Steven]

On one of Mikado's streams, Ikeda said that all of the track names in Out Zone are ultra-chuunibyou and that that is part of why they are so awesome.

In case anyone hasn't heard OUT ZONE ARRANGE VERSION from the old Citron Out Zone OST and/or what it inspired, the (possibly even better) new U-Brand live arrange version of Yatsura ni Tama no Present, here you go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R4J4cnk5_Q

https://youtu.be/_3oyqo4_qk4?feature=shared&t=2536

Even 30+ years later, that dude can still ROCK THE SHOOTING!!! better than anyone else.

[BIL]

Ah man, those GSM 1500 et al arrangements are exemplary... every time I'm back home with appropriate hardware and lack of near neighbours, I blast Grid Seeker's at floor-shaking volume.

On one of Mikado's streams, Ikeda said that all of the track names in Out Zone are ultra-chuunibyou and that that is part of why they are so awesome.

Game creators with that comprehensive appreciation make me so happy ^w^ I've always considered tracknames a great potential source of aesthetic identity, ever since mucking about with the meticulously-titled sound tests in Ninja Gaiden II, Revenge of Shinobi and Space Harrier II as a small kid.

the (possibly even better) new U-Brand live arrange version of Yatsura ni Tama no Present

https://youtu.be/_3oyqo4_qk4?feature=shared&t=2536

Christ these guys rule And so do you for keeping this place so well-appraised of them!

Uemura is such a diehard rocker It's so obvious in hindsight, all the strum-friendly parts in his Toaplan works - "Inside Drive" is my current favourite go-to. (always makes me think of prime mid-80s New Order, with the bright sunny chords over an ice-cold Blue Monday bassline)

[Sumez]

I'd totally read through a lengthy rant about how sick it is.

viewtopic.php?t=68154

[BIL]

I don't remember posting in that thread at all

one of the things that Joker Jun mentioned in that book is that Batsugun's director, Tataka Yuuko, absolutely hated the idea of cyborg Jeeno being the dude from Out Zone, despite the visual similarity. As a result, cyborg Jeeno just looks (almost exactly) like the Out Zone dude and does the same type of work.

Oh shit

[Steven]

Yeah, that book from Shitty Connection Batsugun was pretty great lol. All sorts of great new info is in there.

Christ these guys rule And so do you for keeping this place so well-appraised of them!

Uemura is such a diehard rocker It's so obvious in hindsight, all the strum-friendly parts in his Toaplan works - "Inside Drive" is my current favourite go-to. (always makes me think of prime mid-80s New Order, with the bright sunny chords over an ice-cold Blue Monday bassline)

One of my goals is to get more people to go to their shows, although they only play live one to three times per year because the members' schedules rarely align in a way that allows them to do it. It hasn't been officially announced, but the next one is tentatively scheduled for an undecided day in February.

I'm still trying to get him to play Space High from Vimana, which he really likes and wants to do eventually, High Speed Queen from Dogyuun!!, and Jumping Roll from Hellfire, but he's already decided on what next year's new thing is and although he won't tell me what it is, he did say it's none of those. I'm hoping it's something from Hishouzame, which is oddly completely absent so far.

It's even more odd because he only plays stuff from games that he worked on, even if it's not his music, but wants to do Space High because he really likes that one and he's already done Tatsujin and Tatsujin Ou (it's the last thing he plays on that Youtube video and it's glorious despite a few mistakes), none of which he had any involvement with at all unless you count playing the guitar on the arranged version of Space High that I posted yesterday. Against the Attack, Behind the Bush, and Last Fighter would all be great, so hopefully it's one of those.

[Sumez]

Was hanging out at a meetup this weekend and after being tired of playing, and not really jamming with, Zero Wing, I put on Horror Story from the same collection.
Unsurprisingly it's totally my kinda thing. Super simple straight forward auto-scrolling run'n'gun platforming. I've only ever barely touched the PCE version like 20 years ago, so this is a fun one to get into.

I love the double jump. It's much more strategic than your usual frantic jumping, taking the slow fixed jump height of Contra to a whole new level. It's treacherous not just because you're stuck in the air, but also because it will not give you any added distance as you may think. The basic very short hop is almost always good enough for covering the distance you need.
I really love the extremely powerful but also quite risky Rygar-style head-bop attack which always kills any enemy right away. I kinda wish the game rewarded relying on it more, but I guess if that's what you want you can just play Rygar

It smells like a really straight forward quickly earned 1CC if I ever sit down with it again. There's a few potential chokepoints, mostly some memo-heavy obstacles that I'm prone to forget about until dying to them once, but otherwise the game feels very easy. And being able to regain an extra hit shield whenever you lose it is probably gonna take it a long way.

I love the look of most of the monsters in the game, it's really too bad the backgrounds are mostly boring. And the look of the main character seems to be something everyone always reacts to as the first thing when they see the game, it looks oddly amateurish, and really dominates its first impression.


A couple of questions. Is there any reason to ever change away from the spreadshot? There are couple of areas where another weapon seems slightly more useful, but I haven't noticed any place where it would outbalance the disadvantage of not immediately having the spreadshot back for the following section.
I also noticed a couple of secrets - not much, but there's a wall you can shoot in the castle stage where big blocks pass over your, for a bunch of points. And one point I randomly found where ducking will always give you the shield. I'm assuming there's a bunch more like this or similar. What do people know about?

I played the "B" version which starts at USA - the best version of the game according to Steven, but I haven't played the other one. What are the differences, and what makes this one better?
Steven also thinks the easy mode version is the better revision of Out Zone, so I know I gotta take that claim with a grain of salt But I'm still curious what makes this version of Horror Story preferable.

[Steven]

I played the "B" version which starts at USA - the best version of the game according to Steven, but I haven't played the other one. What are the differences, and what makes this one better?
Steven also thinks the easy mode version is the better revision of Out Zone, so I know I gotta take that claim with a grain of salt But I'm still curious what makes this version of Horror Story preferable.

lol Uemura-san, who is the lead designer and lead programmer of Out Zone, says the normal version is the best version. Hard to argue against the dude who made it~

The enemy placement, number and type of enemies, and a few other things are completely different between the versions of Horror Story. They're not quite different games because they have the same stages, and both are good, but B is a little better. The PC Engine version has a unique boss, but the physics in that version are slightly different from the arcade versions.

There is one other reason that I recommend B, but that reason is not something I can talk about. Wait until the Toaplan documentary is out and then you'll know why!

I highly recommend using the bomb instead of the 3-way shot for most parts, as the bomb is much stronger. 3-way is good for those parts when you need to shoot up, but sometimes you'll want to shoot below you, and only the bomb can do that. Later in the game, the enemies become stronger and the 3-way starts to become less useful, so at that point you'll want to switch to something else anyway. There is a certain dragon boss in a tight hallway where you barely have room to jump or avoid attacks, and I don't recommend using the bomb in that case, however.

[Sumez]

Hm, that's odd, the bombs felt distinctly like the worst weapon in the game to me due to its pitiful range. They are powerful sure, but most enemies die in few hits, so having credit fed through the game I can't really think of any enemies that didn't fall quickly to the spreadshot. Even the bosses die fast, but they are really easy, too. And enemies that appear above you is a thing for the entire game.
One place where I found the bombs to be an advantage is that part where enemies jump up from below the floor, but there aren't really any other place I can think of where the threat comes from below you?

both are good, but B is a little better

Yeah, but what makes it better? Is there like something specific you like about it? Do you find the china stage more enjoyable because it appears later and has more challenges, or is the USA stage annoying in version A, or what is it that tips you over?

[Steven]

Well, the USA stage is a bit annoying in A and the China stage is a bit more challenging in B, but one of the biggest differences is the final area. A's final area is quite long and difficult, and it has a decent amount of relatively precise and frustrating double jumps that you must do. B doesn't have this area at all, although I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. You'll have to play both of them to see which one you like, but I generally prefer B. It also starts you in the areas with the best music in the game first.

The best thing about bomb is that it does massive damage to bosses and kills some of them extremely quickly.

[Sumez]

The bosses are all extremely easy though. I think the biggest challenges in the game comes from some of the platforming, especially where moving platforms are involved. The jumps themselves are quite precise and easy to control, but with other things going on at the same time, there's a great risk to them.

Now I'm curious about trying the final stage in the A version. I found it a bit underwhelming on the B version, but that's probably still preferable to it being frustrating

Any places with secret shields that I'm missing? I only found the one, it's right at the bottom of a very short drop - I think at the start of the china stage IIRC.

[Steven]

Try ducking inside telephone booths~

[Steven]

Yohane PC demo is out now and I couldn't sleep, so I played it. As expected, they've made quite a few changes from the earlier Switch demo that I played, and it's much longer, now about one hour instead of three minutes. There is only a very brief minute or so of talking at the beginning and then the game just shuts up completely and lets you do your thing unimpeded by the story, which I did not expect, but I'm not complaining.

Maybe I was wrong about the earlier demo, but it looks like your jump height is not fixed anymore, or perhaps it never was. Fortunately, running at 1920 x 1080, it uses square pixels. No interpolation needed and it looks glorious.

I am quite surprised at how much damage you take in this game; if you fuck up, the game will absolutely let you know by taking away decent to massive chunks of your HP, depending on your equipment. You can fast travel to any save point to get healed at any time, even during a boss fight, which is interesting, so you probably won't die unless you essentially choose to do so. The randomized rooms are going to totally ruin speedruns, but other than that, nothing but good things to say about it so far. The demo's only going to be around for a few days, so I'll play it some more after work today. I really need to go to sleep now since it's past 0400.

[Sumez]

Oh wow, Rev. "A" of Horror Story is way tougher than Rev. "B"! Just did a credit feed through, and on one hand I can see why there's a few sections in it you'd probably prefer being without (like the second fire bird area, jesus), but on the other hand this one goes out with a bang, with a massive final stage worthy of its status, completely omitted in the B-version which just takes you directly to the final boss, ending with a fairly easy castle stage.
I don't think it would be missing the mark to see this version as the "second loop" of the game, to be undertaken once you get bored with 1CC'ing version B. I can see why they put it as the default version in the compilation however.

I also disabled autofire, which didn't exactly make my life any easier. Now getting the bombs suddenly makes a whole lot more sense! Especially on the A version, where a lot of enemies have a ton more life, even on stages that should appear with the same internal rank. This is definitely a game designed around players not having (external*) autofire.
*EDIT: I forgot the game actually has an internal autofire button. When I first played the game, I promptly switched it for the quicker autofire M2 added, which is what makes the spreadshot much too overpowered

Anyway, here are the locations of every hidden shield in both versions of the game (just duck in the right spot). I'm not sure if this has ever been documented anywhere else:

• In the phone booth right where the first "Jason" type enemies appear.
• In the area where imps jump out of windows, on top of the last platform.
• In front of the fire breathing dragon statues (both of them!)
• In the area with skeleton archers, on the left edge of the roof right after the big barn doors.
• Only rev. A: On top of the pirate ship, all three masts have one, including the broken one in the end. Convenient as you'll respawn next to it if you die to the giant jellyfish. To get up there from the left, bounce on top of a flying pirate skull.
• Only rev. B: On top of the pirate ship, over the second little skull symbol. It's tough to get up there in this revision as you don't have the pirate skulls. As far as I can tell the only way to do it is by nailing a super hard time jump on a skeleton as it drops down. Seems risky to me.
• Right after the part where you jump on moving clouds is a building full of ghosts riding bicycles, it's in front of the rightmost window.
• After the "metroid" area is a tiny single-tile drop before the graveyard (Rev. B) or the american town (Rev. A). It's at the bottom of that drop
• Only rev. A: Immediately after that drop, is a phone booth which also has one. This is on screen where Rev. B starts, but has no shield even if you could make it back there.

[Steven]

Version A is significantly more common than version B, which is exceedingly rare, and that might be why they made A the primary version here. Most people who played it at the time of its release in the arcade were probably never aware of the existence of B. Same with Hellfire 2P.

Considering it as a second loop is interesting, though. That's probably a good way to think of it. It's very unfortunate that M2 didn't put the PCB autofire in the PS4 version. I told them about it, so hopefully it does show up eventually.

[Sumez]

Ok that's odd. I got the Switch version if only because I have an aversion to discs, and M2's previous Switch ports have been stellar.
Yeah I wasn't aware the B version was rare - had my friend check which version his PCB was, and it's the A version of course. So I guess if I'm going for a 1CC it has to be that version.

Edit: Man, that back of the box art is really brilliant, glad I got myself a bunch of empty Switch boxes just to hold these. I love how many of the game's enemy types they were able to cram in there, but even more brilliant is how it's actually a surprisingly detailed map of the entire game (the A version of course), only omitting the "plot-twist" final stage.

[Steven]

If you ever see a Horror Story B PCB for sale and have the money, get it! It's super rare, just like Get Star and Hellfire 1P.

I have a few extra Switch game boxes myself, and I am putting my extra Toaplan covers in them. Need to go find some PS4 cases so I can do the same with those ones.

[Sumez]

I'm already sour my friend bought this game from another friend before he got to put it up for sale. I really wanted this game, and he always sells PCBs for way cheaper than the market price.

Curiously Wikipedia says that "the better known version" of the game starts in USA, but I think that's a misinterpetation. The edit that adds that comment claims to base the information on the (completely unused) high score thread of this forum.
But not only is the information about versions just as much speculation in that post as anywhere else, and not a reliable source at all. It also only supports the A version being more common, but contradicts itself on the subject of which version came first.
The only information I can find supporting the B version being "more well known" is that mame uses it as a parent rom. But once a game revision exists as a rom dump, every super-rare version is as common as the most widespread one, so mame really only helps obscuring those facts in this case.

I'd like to edit the information on there, but without a reliable source, it's no more fit for Wikipedia than the misinformation already there.

My impression is that Rev. B is an earlier revision, if not a straight up incomplete version of the game! This is of course supported by how much rarer that PCB (supposedly!) is, and both M2 and the PCE port treating A as the canon version of the game.
It was noted somewhere (I can't remember where) that the music data is stored in both roms in the order they appear in rev. B, and rev. A of course has enemy types that don't appear in B. So those facts also point at Rev. A being a later one.

The only thing that B has over A content-wise is that introduction with people fleeing the town, which honestly is an odd thing to drop if A really is the later version. The text flying over the screen with butterfly sprites instead really feels like a placeholder thing. I guess they just didn't have the time to create a china-themed equivalent to the intro after switching stages around?

The existance of the final stage is also interesting. Why would rev. B even create all those assets if only using it to house a single basic boss fight? Especially curious is the single ice block placed in a position where it has no effect on gameplay at all. Again, if B really is the earlier version, that points to them already intending to make a full stage in this area, which would make B more of an incomplete prototype, or maybe even a location test version?

[Steven]

I think you will highly enjoy the Horror Story section of the Toaplan documentary. The story of the game's development is quite interesting.

It was noted somewhere (I can't remember where) that the music data is stored in both roms in the order they appear in rev. B

I am not sure about the data within the ROMs, but it's like that on the game's soundtrack from City Connection.

I didn't know there was a high score thread for this, though! I'm definitely going to put up some scores for it.

[Sumez]

Tbh I didn't think of the game as a shmup (and clearly neither did M2), but honestly it passes most of the checks, including forced scrolling (unlike Out Zone)

I am not sure about the data within the ROMs, but it's like that on the game's soundtrack from City Connection.

Maybe that's what I was thinking of? That's less telling I guess.
EDIT: No, the high score test specifically mentions the sound test on both PCBs. Which tends to represent the order they are stored in the game data.

[Steven]

I've never thought of it that way either, but it does indeed have most of the things that STGs usually have. Game's a lot of fun no matter which version you play. Between A and B, which one do you think is better?

The PCB is a bit on the expensive side, even for the A version. It's around the same price as Out Zone or possibly more, depending on where you get your PCBs from. I paid only 1,200 yen more for my Out Zone with real instruction cards and manual than Tops wants for their Horror Story with copied instruction cards and manual, but Tops is a ripoff store anyway.

[Sumez]

Tops is a reliable quality store where you can rest assured you always get original and clean well working PCBs, packaged and shipped responsibly. I've never been disappointed by their service.
They are expensive, sure, but that comes with them running an actual business.

[BIL]

Superbly informative posting gents, marked for index.

I've only dabbled in Horror Story since TAGv3's release, but it was more than enough to know I liked it. An authentically taut Toaplan run/gun with a doublejump and The Darkness Bop™ got my attention immediately. Hop n' bop, more like Stomp n' Bust Shot

On a purely stylistic note, I really dig HS and its forerunner Wardner's knack for the downbeat. Damp unfinished concrete, overgrown grass, all that good unglamorous stuff. Interesting contrast with the generally cute n' cuddly (if unmistakably feral!) monsters and endearingly goofy player characters; stands out a mile from conventionally sunny peers like Chiki Chiki Boys.

[Steven]

Speaking of Wardner, one of the final bosses in Horror Story just straight-up reuses the attack pattern of Wardner's final boss, which is cool. Need to do Wardner 1CC soon, as I really like that game. I've gotten to just before the final boss, I think through a credit feed, but it becomes pretty difficult to proceed after a certain point if you die and lose all of your powerups.

Something else that is interesting happens when you check out the credits of the IKD interview from the other day



Mostly the same people, but with Tomizawa making his debut, as Horror Story is his first game and he did a damn good job. This is one of the best parts about the documentary, as we will finally have official, complete credits for every Toaplan game. There are so many things that I want to talk about but can't, so I'm really looking forward to it being released, partially because I am looking forward to seeing it, but also because it's endlessly frustrating to know lots of the cool stuff that people want the answers to but not being able to talk about it.

[Sumez]

Yeah I found a lot of similarities between the two games, with that boss pattern especially sticking out (it's less random and much easier to dodge in HS tho). I love Wardner, but I find Horror Story to be an inifnitely better game. The former comes down to just memorizing a couple of tight spots, where the latter is full of unique setups that require unique solutions, showcasing much more variation and creativity on behalf of the dev team. If Wardner is Kage, Horror Story is Ninja Gaiden.