PS1 vs Saturn: Best version of Image Fight/X-Multiply?

[MrOldSchoolCool]

I couldn't find any comparisons to determine which port would be best to get. Is anybody able to compare the two?
And no, I'm not interested in the more recent release they did of them for Switch and whatnot. I want a copy that I can easily play on my CRT.

If a comparison already exists, a link directing me there would be great and I apologize.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

Anyone? Can anybody speak to how well either version plays?

[Gamer707b]

Tried to see if there is any YouTube comparisons, but didn't see none. Im sure someone here has knowledge of the two versions. This place is the who's who of shmup knowledge.

[SavagePencil]

This site, which here is treated as a nest of fools and liars, mentioned this ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/x-multiply/ ):

There are a few glitches, as the game occasionally drops sound effects. All of the music is encoded as redbook audio, so it works in any CD player. The status bar also doesn’t completely fit, so you need to use the trigger buttons to reveal or hide it. The PS1 version has identical horizontal resolution to the arcade version, while the Saturn is smaller (384 pixels vs 352 pixels) but the difference is negligible.

Someone should confirm. I’m surprised because I thought the CPS-2 games ran at 384 on the Saturn, but I could be mistaken.

[BrianC]

Someone should confirm. I’m surprised because I thought the CPS-2 games ran at 384 on the Saturn, but I could be mistaken.

Resolution is definitely different for CPS2 (and CPS1 via Capcom Generations). Games that were 384 originally run at 352 on the Saturn. Saturn graphics for Vampire Savior are definitely slightly squished compared to the AC version. Not CPS 2, but the Gradius Deluxe pack is also slightly squished on Saturn.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Not sure if you mean vertically or horizontally squished, but the Gradius on the Saturn have the opposite resolution problem to the Capcom fighters - there's not enough for the latter (as it indeed maxes out at 352) but there's too much for the lower resolution of Konami games (as they didn't make use of the 320 mode for some reason).

As for the Irem games, the best option for (55Hz) CRTs is Groovymame. The 32bit ports do suffer because of the resolution and the different refresh rate, which makes them noticeably faster than the originals.

[cfx]

I do not know if the horizontal resolution of the CPS2 games on Saturn matches the arcade hardware exactly, but what I do know is the image is wider than what most CRTs will display by default and wider than the typical Saturn game; if you have a monitor where it's easy enough to adjust the size you can fix it where you see the entire image, and I'm pretty sure once you do that the proportions of characters are correct.

Some of the games have options related to this, and it's also why they altered the life bars on many of the games to move the character portraits below instead of beside them. At least one game also has an option to make that like the arcade though I don't remember which one it is. One of the fighters also has "arcade size" or something like that, which changes how far apart the two characters can be because in arcade mode they'd be partially offscreen at max distance.

[Bassa-Bassa]

I do not know if the horizontal resolution of the CPS2 games on Saturn matches the arcade hardware exactly, but what I do know is the image is wider than what most CRTs will display by default and wider than the typical Saturn game; if you have a monitor where it's easy enough to adjust the size you can fix it where you see the entire image, and I'm pretty sure once you do that the proportions of characters are correct.

Indeed, they are not. To get the same proportions between CPS/SAT you still need to display the latter with some underscan. That's because the displayed horizontal resolution is smaller.

Some of the games have options related to this, and it's also why they altered the life bars on many of the games to move the character portraits below instead of beside them. At least one game also has an option to make that like the arcade though I don't remember which one it is. One of the fighters also has "arcade size" or something like that, which changes how far apart the two characters can be because in arcade mode they'd be partially offscreen at max distance.

They still are partially offscreen even if you adjust the monitor for no overscan. It's an option to virtualize the original resolution because it's not actually possible on the SAT.

[cfx]

To get the same proportions between CPS/SAT you still need to display the latter with some underscan.

Isn't that what I said?

[Bassa-Bassa]

To get the same proportions between CPS/SAT you still need to display the latter with some underscan.

Isn't that what I said?

Well, by "fix it where you see the entire image" I understand "shrink the picture right until you don't get any overscan", not beyond that point, which is what you'd need to get the CPS proportions and what evidences that both systems use different resolution modes.

[Lemnear]

This site, which here is treated as a nest of fools and liars, mentioned this ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/x-multiply/ ):

Interesting, why they are considered fools and liars here?
I've read only their article on the SHMUPS history and SHMUPS for Beginners, they contain errors or incorrect statesment? i don't know what the users write on their forum...i don't know even if they have one.

[cfx]

To get the same proportions between CPS/SAT you still need to display the latter with some underscan.

Isn't that what I said?

Well, by "fix it where you see the entire image" I understand "shrink the picture right until you don't get any overscan", not beyond that point, which is what you'd need to get the CPS proportions and what evidences that both systems use different resolution modes.

Except it isn't evidence of that at all. Analog TV does not have a fixed "pixel pitch"; the default width of the image has to do with signal timing and not the resolution.

Moreover, CPS2 is arcade hardware that doesn't generate anything other than RGB, and the physical sizes of the images generated by arcade boards are all over the place beyond just the generally fairly slight differences in resolution. It's why arcade monitors have such a large range of adjustment on their size and position controls, as nearly every board will require a different adjustment. I know that from experience in having owned a number of arcade boards in the past. Nothing like many of the collectors here, but I've had maybe 20-30, and every one of them is different.

Presumably, Saturn's video output is designed to generate an image representing square pixels in the source graphics. CPS2 doesn't use square pixels; I don't know the exact proportions but the pixels are definitely taller than wide; it's why all those animated gifs of sprite rips of Capcom fighters are horizontally stretched on computer displays. So using the same video signal as whatever Saturn resolution is closest to CPS2, with the higer resolution the image is "too wide" for a tv. The adjustment I stated fixes that. The fact it's too wide suggests it's the same as CPS2's horizontal resolution. It might still not be, because perhaps it isn't possible to make it that wide, and that I don't know, but it's closer than it would be if it used the normal size used in most Saturn games.

I know my explanation sucks.

[BIL]

This site, which here is treated as a nest of fools and liars, mentioned this ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/x-multiply/ ):

Interesting, why they are considered fools and liars here?
I've read only their article on the SHMUPS history and SHMUPS for Beginners, they contain errors or incorrect statesment? i don't know what the users write on their forum...i don't know even if they have one.

Quantity over quality, basically. Useful site for learning what games/ports of games exist ("Daimakaimura has a Mega Drive port" ). Typically little beyond that ("It's the definitive version because it has an invincibility cheat and the game is impossible without it" ).

Article quality varies considerably by author; some of this forum's regulars have contributed good work. A lot of the time they're brought up here nowadays, it's apropos of very little. The h4rdcor3 GAYMER vs Filthy Casual!1! HAWTNESS was a decade-and-a-half ago at this point. (thread difficulty level: WAR CRIME )

Still, it's a not-unpopular niche, the self-appointed "retro sherpa" dabbler with a very busy schedule and no time for details. Here's another: the day I was trapped under a box propped up by a stick over an issue of EGM

[Lemnear]

This site, which here is treated as a nest of fools and liars, mentioned this ( http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/x-multiply/ ):

Interesting, why they are considered fools and liars here?
I've read only their article on the SHMUPS history and SHMUPS for Beginners, they contain errors or incorrect statesment? i don't know what the users write on their forum...i don't know even if they have one.

Quantity over quality, basically. Useful site for learning what games/ports of games exist ("Daimakaimura has a Mega Drive port" ). Typically little beyond that ("It's the definitive version because it has an invincibility cheat and the game is impossible without it" ).

Article quality varies considerably by author; some of this forum's regulars have contributed good work. A lot of the time they're brought up here nowadays, it's apropos of very little. The h4rdcor3 GAYMER vs Filthy Casual!1! HAWTNESS was a decade-and-a-half ago at this point. (thread difficulty level: WAR CRIME )

Still, it's a not-unpopular niche, the self-appointed "retro sherpa" dabbler with a very busy schedule and no time for details. Here's another: the day I was trapped under a box propped up by a stick over an issue of EGM

i have the feelings that there's a deeper knowledge here, also there are "true hardcore" gamers and living legends detentor of world records.
This will open to one of my silliest question ever...

[Bassa-Bassa]

Isn't that what I said?

Well, by "fix it where you see the entire image" I understand "shrink the picture right until you don't get any overscan", not beyond that point, which is what you'd need to get the CPS proportions and what evidences that both systems use different resolution modes.

Except it isn't evidence of that at all. Analog TV does not have a fixed "pixel pitch"; the default width of the image has to do with signal timing and not the resolution.

Yeah, I've been using (RGB) CRTs all my life and do it regularly to this day! Horizontal resolution also dictates in the end how much horizontal overscan there is, that's why you need to make the adjustments you mention depending on the source - if a 320x224 SAT game is displayed properly on the CRT (as in, centered picture with no over- or under-scan), a 352x224 SAT game will get some overscan, you'll need to shrink the picture with the monitor's pots or the TV's service controls to get the full picture visible on screen.

I think, up to this point, that's what you were also saying.

Now, for the same reason, a CPS which displays 384x224 (at similar refresh rate) will get even more overscan on the very same monitor, so in the case you left the monitor ready to properly display a 352x224 picture, you'll need again to readjust a bit the picture's horizontal width (shrink) to get it fully visible on screen. Same logic as the previous case, and that's how CRTs work - I think that's what you experienced with your PCBs so we'll agree up to this point as well.

So now it's just geometry - if a SAT game uses the same graphic assets as its CPS counterpart, and to get the same exact proportions on the same CRT you have to shrink horizontally the SAT's picture even if it's just a little bit (and you can believe me - you have to), that means the SAT's displayed horizontal resolution for that game is smaller than that of the CPS (what you bolded in my quote).

Forgive me if I'm not pasting any links here but I'm sure it's everywhere - SAT's widest non-interlaced resolution mode is indeed of 352 pixels, 32 less in the horizontal than CPS/CPS2. It's used by the Capcom ports, but also by the Cottons, Silvergun, Thunder Force V, Baroque, Burning Rangers and many others, actually. They weren't too afraid of the unavoidable overscan on ordinary TVs.

[cfx]

We're saying the same things. That wasn't clear to me from your initial statements, and my terminology is probably not accurate enough that you initially got what I was saying either.

I think the point we likely confused each other on is I know that on the same hardware, the wider horizontal resolution will require a change in the monitor width setting and that is indeed an indication that the resolution changed. I am not certain that is always true when you also switch hardware, due to possible other variables in analog video signal timing. I am not anywhere near an expert in video signals, so I may well be wrong on that point.

Also I meant no offense in comments aobut RGB monitors but there are many that don't have experience with that so I made that point.

Forgive me if I'm not pasting any links here but I'm sure it's everywhere - SAT's widest non-interlaced resolution mode is indeed of 352 pixels, 32 less in the horizontal than CPS/CPS2. It's used by the Capcom ports, but also by the Cottons, Silvergun, Thunder Force V, Baroque, Burning Rangers and many others, actually. They weren't too afraid of the unavoidable overscan on ordinary TVs.

And this part is what I did not know, and I didn't try to look it up because I have no idea what to trust given all the misinformation and misunderstanding that is far too common about these things.

That's also what I was trying to say in the last message. On Saturn they got as close as they could on the hardware, but I didn't know if it was still the same resolution. It is still, I think, the closest that any console got?

[Bassa-Bassa]

The PS1 (and therefore, the PS2) was able of CPS' 384x224 and it's the only reason some people prefer certain Capcom ports for the Sony machine over the SAT ones (mainly those in the Capcom Generation volumes), though it seems some Capcom games used 368x224 instead. A friend of mine says the DC is programmable for any res mode over 320x240 and below 704x480 (or something like that) despite not being officially documented, that's why some Capcom ports for it kept the original resolution intact.

Aside of these, it doesn't seem to be any other.