Dreamcast best for non-MiSTer non-JAMMA shmups?

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:33 am

I have a MiSTer setup and a JAMMA setup and I'd like to get a console for shmups that aren't on MiSTer or JAMMA. Is a Dreamcast the best choice? It sounds like there won't be MiSTer support and I don't think many of the Dreamcast shmups are on JAMMA.

A lot of the earlier consoles have great shmups but they're also available on MiSTer now or will be soon. Do the consoles that came after Dreamcast have much in the way of shmups that aren't on an earlier console or on JAMMA?

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:51 am

PS4 will be the best choice because of Arcade Archives, and also because you can get JAMMA equipment for the NAOMI.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 3:47 pm

Are there any good shmups in Arcade Archives that aren't on JAMMA or MiSTer?

Putting together a NAOMI+JAMMA setup would be quite a feat. Not sure it would be worth it for the NAOMI shmups.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:09 pm

I don't know, but since I do have a MiSTer I can tell you that Arcade Archives and M2 ShotTriggers versions are probably going to be better than what you can do on the MiSTer, if for no other reason than that the MiSTer's button mapping and autofire functionality is complete garbage compared to ACA and ShotTriggers. That's why I don't play on MiSTer anymore.

Oh yeah, Raiden IV. I don't think the Type X is JAMMA since it's basically a computer or something like that. Checked, and yep, it's JVS, not JAMMA. It isn't on ACA, but there's one for you.

Forgot about Cotton Reboot, Cotton Rock 'n' Roll, Eschatos, Ginga Force, and Natsuki Chronicles too. Get a Switch and you can add Crimzon Clover to that list as well. I don't think Darius or Darius II are on MiSTer, either

Bassa-Bassa · Post by **Bassa-Bassa** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:11 pm

It all depends on your setup and needs, but if you're interested in Naomi games (not too hard to check out there which are they all), a DC is normally a much better option, as you won't be missing any title and there's some extra homebrew stuff, and the ports are basically perfect accuracy-wise. I personally don't recommend using it for non-Naomi ports aside from Gunbird 2 or Twinkle Star Sprites, though, but you get the bonus of (unofficial) Atomiswave games, even if it's quite a bit of a hassle.

Jeneki · Post by **Jeneki** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:10 pm

If you check out the newer console stuff and are still craving more, the doujin scene has a different feel. A cheapo toaster pc should handle most of that.

Yoshi · Post by **Yoshi** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 7:28 pm

shmupsrocks wrote:Are there any good shmups in Arcade Archives that aren't on JAMMA or MiSTer?

There are good people who support inexpensive, licensed releases over unnecessary piracy.

Bassa-Bassa · Post by **Bassa-Bassa** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 10:41 pm

He could be using a CRT and prefer how the games looked originally, so I'm not sure about "unnecessary".

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:31 am

Is there much input lag on a DC? I'm sensitive to that.

Bassa-Bassa wrote:It all depends on your setup and needs, but if you're interested in Naomi games (not too hard to check out there which are they all), a DC is normally a much better option, as you won't be missing any title and there's some extra homebrew stuff, and the ports are basically perfect accuracy-wise.

I think the best part about a real NAOMI setup would be tate mode.

Bassa-Bassa wrote:I personally don't recommend using it for non-Naomi ports aside from Gunbird 2 or Twinkle Star Sprites

Is that Mars Matrix and the Gigawings or am I missing some?

Jeneki wrote:If you check out the newer console stuff and are still craving more, the doujin scene has a different feel. A cheapo toaster pc should handle most of that.

I would love to get into that but whatever I use has to be plug and play. I don't want to manage another OS.

Yoshi wrote:There are good people who support inexpensive, licensed releases over unnecessary piracy.

Like on the Dreamcast?

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 6:58 am

shmupsrocks wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:I personally don't recommend using it for non-Naomi ports aside from Gunbird 2 or Twinkle Star Sprites
Is that Mars Matrix and the Gigawings or am I missing some?

GigaWing 2 is ported from NAOMI. It's just GigaWing 1 and Mars Matrix that were CPS2. GigaWing 1 has a better conversion on Capcom Arcade Stadium thanks to the last update which fixed the input delay.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:42 am

I just looked over the PS2 shmups and it looks like it could be a better choice for this than the Dreamcast, but I can't find a good list of shmups on any console newer than the PS2. Is there a newer console with an even better selection of shmups from the "Dreamcast or newer" era? (Actually that would have been a better title for this thread.)

Bassa-Bassa · Post by **Bassa-Bassa** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:58 am

Gradius V and Fantasy Zone 2 may well justify the purchase of a PS2 for anybody into the genre, but generally it's not a better option than the DC for original (or ported-from-similar-hardware) STG. The few Type-X-to-PS2 or PS-hardware-to-PS2 ports just aren't as good as the original versions or later ports.

shmupsrocks wrote:Is there much input lag on a DC? I'm sensitive to that.

Bassa-Bassa wrote:It all depends on your setup and needs, but if you're interested in Naomi games (not too hard to check out there which are they all), a DC is normally a much better option, as you won't be missing any title and there's some extra homebrew stuff, and the ports are basically perfect accuracy-wise.
I think the best part about a real NAOMI setup would be tate mode.

As I mentioned, they're basically perfect accuracy-wise, that for sure includes "tate" mode for "tate" games and 31khz RGB output.

Bassa-Bassa wrote:I personally don't recommend using it for non-Naomi ports aside from Gunbird 2 or Twinkle Star Sprites
Is that Mars Matrix and the Gigawings or am I missing some?

Only Space Harrier and Afterburner II if you count these, but outside of the STG genre there are quite a few.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:30 am

shmupsrocks wrote:I just looked over the PS2 shmups and it looks like it could be a better choice for this than the Dreamcast, but I can't find a good list of shmups on any console newer than the PS2. Is there a newer console with an even better selection of shmups from the "Dreamcast or newer" era? (Actually that would have been a better title for this thread.)

PS4, Switch, and 360 are what you are looking for.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 4:40 am

Bassa-Bassa wrote:As I mentioned, they're basically perfect accuracy-wise, that for sure includes "tate" mode for "tate" games and 31khz RGB output.

Are you saying I can put a vertical shmup ported to DC from NAOMI in tate mode so that I can rotate a 4:3 monitor 90 degrees and it will fill the screen?

Steven wrote:PS4, Switch, and 360 are what you are looking for.

Any thoughts on if one of those would be better than the DC for "Dreamcast era or newer" shmups and if so which one?

I know a lot of the Switch shmups suffer from input lag (especially with a USB controller) which has kept me away.

Do the PS4 or 360 require me to connect to the internet at any point? I believe the Switch does which I don't like.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 5:44 am

shmupsrocks wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:As I mentioned, they're basically perfect accuracy-wise, that for sure includes "tate" mode for "tate" games and 31khz RGB output.
Are you saying I can put a vertical shmup ported to DC from NAOMI in tate mode so that I can rotate a 4:3 monitor 90 degrees and it will fill the screen?

That is exactly what Bassa-Bassa is saying, yes. Gunbird 2, Radirgy, Karous, Under Defeat, Triggerheart Exelica, Trizeal, Shikigami No Shiro 2, Ikaruga and Psyvariar 2 all support full screen tate using 90 degrees CCW rotation (the screen must sit on its left side).

sunnshiner · Post by **sunnshiner** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:06 am

shmupsrocks wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:As I mentioned, they're basically perfect accuracy-wise, that for sure includes "tate" mode for "tate" games and 31khz RGB output.
Are you saying I can put a vertical shmup ported to DC from NAOMI in tate mode so that I can rotate a 4:3 monitor 90 degrees and it will fill the screen?

Steven wrote:PS4, Switch, and 360 are what you are looking for.
Any thoughts on if one of those would be better than the DC for "Dreamcast era or newer" shmups and if so which one?

I know a lot of the Switch shmups suffer from input lag (especially with a USB controller) which has kept me away.

Do the PS4 or 360 require me to connect to the internet at any point? I believe the Switch does which I don't like.

The 360 doesn't need to be connected to the internet but (obviously) if you want a legit one and all the DLC then it'll need to be connected. Id just get a modded Slim version and go from there if you just want the games.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:17 am

Any good list of PS4 and Xbox 360 shmups out there?

Just from poking around, Dreamcast along with one of the above would cover a lot of "Dreamcast era or newer" shmup territory.

sunnshiner · Post by **sunnshiner** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:47 am

shmupsrocks wrote:Any good list of PS4 and Xbox 360 shmups out there?

Just from poking around, Dreamcast along with one of the above would cover a lot of "Dreamcast era or newer" shmup territory.

360 here-

https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/jayc/ ... ups/56970/

It's not a great list but it'll give you an idea of what's available. There's the Cave stuff, obvs, and there are some extra helicopters (DLC) in the 360 and PS3 versions of Under Defeat. There's a cool arrange mode in DoDonPachi Dai that's a mash up of DDP and Ketsui that I think was DLC.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:04 am

Kiken wrote:
shmupsrocks wrote:
Bassa-Bassa wrote:I personally don't recommend using it for non-Naomi ports aside from Gunbird 2 or Twinkle Star Sprites
Is that Mars Matrix and the Gigawings or am I missing some?
GigaWing 2 is ported from NAOMI. It's just GigaWing 1 and Mars Matrix that were CPS2. GigaWing 1 has a better conversion on Capcom Arcade Stadium thanks to the last update which fixed the input delay.

Sorry for the OT question, but I've been unable to find anything definitive about this online: was the CAS lag fixed for all input devices, and across both collections? I recall some complaints on Twitter that input lag was particularly bad in the first collection for arcade stick users on PS4, but since grabbing the PS4 versions myself I haven't been able to detect anything troublesome. I'm using a supposedly low-latency monitor and a Brook UFB, though, which could be picking up some slack.

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:23 am

shmupsrocks wrote:Any thoughts on if one of those would be better than the DC for "Dreamcast era or newer" shmups and if so which one?

PS4 is the only one with all of the M2 ShotTriggers games, so it wins by default. Even then it's technically missing one of them because that new Mega Drive version of Fantasy Zone that's on the Mega Drive Mini 2 has the "Powered by M2 ShotTriggers" thing and that's only on that system.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:48 pm

sunnshiner wrote:
shmupsrocks wrote:Any good list of PS4 and Xbox 360 shmups out there?

Just from poking around, Dreamcast along with one of the above would cover a lot of "Dreamcast era or newer" shmup territory.
360 here-

https://www.giantbomb.com/profile/jayc/ ... ups/56970/

It's not a great list but it'll give you an idea of what's available. There's the Cave stuff, obvs, and there are some extra helicopters (DLC) in the 360 and PS3 versions of Under Defeat. There's a cool arrange mode in DoDonPachi Dai that's a mash up of DDP and Ketsui that I think was DLC.

That's a lot to explore. Would a PS4 list be roughly as extensive or does the X360 stand out in comparison?

Do the PS4 and X360 require you to sign up for an account with your email or phone?

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 3:59 pm

You need an email address/Microsoft account to use any of the online features of the 360, but IIRC you can still just create an offline user profile, pop a disc in and start playing without any updates. Hopefully the same is true of the PS4. They both get pretty pushy once you set up an internet connection, of course.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:54 pm

Wow there are a lot of homebrew Dreamcast games:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... brew_games

88 total released and 20 released shmups.

StrzxgvNuvWvfld · Post by **StrzxgvNuvWvfld** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:34 pm

shmupsrocks wrote:Wow there are a lot of homebrew Dreamcast games:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... brew_games

88 total released and 20 released shmups.

....of varying quality. In particular stay away from Joshprod.

The consoles mentioned here: DC/PS2/360/PS4 are all solid choices, but there isn't a definitive answer to which is best, it depends entirely on which games you want to play. You seem to be going for quantity over quality. How many of these games are you likely to invest any serious time into? Just find a few games that you actually want to play and pick up whichever console you can play them on.

charlie chong · Post by **charlie chong** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 1:59 am

if you are not looking to go online then an rgh/jtag 360 is not too expensive and can play a lot of shooties
you can install all your games to the hard drive so no disc swapping and is region free plus some cool ports on xbla like radiant silvergun and r-type dimensions . then it also has a version of mame 0.72 and a version of final burn alpha next so that is a lot of games to play.
also plays a few cool backwards compatible xbox games like panzer dragoon orta.
you can also grab a lot of the dlc for games that were tied to the one use codes like matsuri mushi and matsuri muchi muchi pork.
as someone who has pretty much every good shooter system i have retired all the others but analogue pocket , x box 360 and ps4 to storage nowadays

Steven · Post by **Steven** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:26 am

StrzxgvNuvWvfld wrote:
shmupsrocks wrote:Wow there are a lot of homebrew Dreamcast games:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... brew_games

88 total released and 20 released shmups.
In particular stay away from Joshprod.

^^^

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Tue Jun 20, 2023 3:51 pm

Too bad. It looks like Joshprod made a lot of titles. Is it lack of polish, input lag, or something else?

Did all of those DC homebrew games have a physical release or were some only made available as a ROM?

davyK · Post by **davyK** » Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:09 pm

I'd go for PS2 over Dreamcast. It has more good shmups:- DOJ (JPN), EspGaluda(JPN), Homura, Tengai, Fantasy Zone(JPN), Shikigami 1&2, Dragon Blaze, Psyvariar, Raiden III, RType Final, Gradius III+IV and V, Samurai Aces. You can also play Raiden 1,2,Dx, Gradius Gaiden, RType Delta etc for PS1 with BC

Of course, 360 + PS4 are the better later alternative. I have my 360 slim hooked up to a CRT with RGB SCART. I own a Switch and it has some fine games but if looking to just play shmups PS4 would be better. I have a 2nd dock for my Switch and a rotated panel for TATEs when the family aren't playing Mario Kart etc.

Mushi, DFK, Rayz Collection and the Darius ports are all solid on Switch.

shmupsrocks · Post by **shmupsrocks** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 8:08 am

This is a tough call for me. PS2 does seem to have more official shmups than DC (and there's backwards compatibility with PS1) but DC has a big homebrew library. Would having both be worthwhile?

Is there a good solution for playing imports on PS2?

How best to connect a PS2 to a BVM or plasma without difficult/invasive mods or an external scaler?

It looks like the PS2 does 240p all the way up to 1080i. Do all games support all resolutions?

The PS2 can go online but I'll assume it doesn't pseudo-demand that you sign up online like modern systems do.

pulsemod · Post by **pulsemod** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 12:26 pm

Unless things have changed recently, the only ways to run out of region discs on a retail PS2 are with a modchip, the 'MechaPwn' exploit that only works with specific models, or swap magic which involves swapping discs.

If you're softmodded you can also play out of region games from burned discs or off the HDD/network but obviously that's not the same as legit discs.

PS2 has YPbPr as well as RGBs out and can connect to BVM via standard component or special made BNC cables.

most games run at 480i, only a handful of games do anything else whether it's 240p or higher. the system's games are overall far less 480p capable than Dreamcast, Xbox or even GameCube. on the other hand, the majority of PS1 games run at 240p, with the boot screen and some games using high res 480i sparingly, often switching modes on the fly.

since the PS2 didn't originally come with network capability built in, there are no online features built into the console's software itself. the DC honestly has more online features than the PS2, but there's nothing forced.

personally, I would say both DC and PS2 are worthwhile consoles to own. PS2 is a blast but DC is practically an arcade home console, and the crossover between the two is limited enough that crossing off the games better on DC there's still plenty on PS1/2 to enjoy.

shmups.system11.org