Immigration: That thing hiding behind the gay marriage bill

[The n00b]

It's too bad real life can't be like this forum. Otherwise the whole amendment to ban gay marriage would have completely distracted the U.S. gov and its people and we would stop talking about anything worth talking about.

Anyway Spec brought up the whole immigration issue ,as it's being discussed in the U.S., awhile ago but the issue is still alive and well. The gov still doesn't know what to do about illegal immigrants. The country needs them but the arch conservatives are worried about our national treasure of white women and the more practical members of our gov worry that the illegals are not completely self sufficient. ie. they'll need health care, gov services, education for their kids, and tons of other resources that the U.S. just barely provides for its own citizens so we certainly can't provide to an illegal workforce. A lot of neo-conservatives have also become aware that the U.S. has a black population, to their horror, and are arguing that they will be displaced by hispanics.

This issue is 10 times as bad as the gay marriage bill because it is spiraling so much out of control and there's no yes/no answer to it. It's not even about illegal immigration anymore as hatemongers from the white minority group target the hispanic minority group by introducing hate filled legislation in congress and arguing that hispanic americans who vote, speak spanish, or protest are anti-american. It's become a needlessly divisive issue among America's patchwork of minority groups that just does not want to go away.

So my question is what exactly do the europeans think about this? The hate mongers in the U.S. argue that if we don't "purify" American culture soon, we'll end up worse than "Arab Europe." For some reason, I just dont' see that happening.

[Twiddle]

I think the best rebuttal to those people would be to ask if they like eventual inbreeding

[Eps]

I'm going to decline to comment here, as I have to declare a personal interest as someone who has had to go through all the paperwork and hassle of getting authorisation to legally move to the US, which I will do in August.

[Specineff]

N00b, there was some sarcasm on that post right? Or is my detector starting to give me false readings?

[The n00b]

There was tons of sarcasm there ,spec. Let me just say that I'm not in favor of illegal immigration and I do think our border needs more enforcement. However, I don't think official language amendments, efforts to protect "our" white culture, and other silly stuff has anything to do with illegal immigration and really do need to stop.

[GaijinPunch]

I'll probably move to Asia before I move back to the mainland, so don't really worry about it too much. Gets in the way of my games. I know that's shitty of me, but fuck... there are worse things I could do.

[Alske]

I think that everyone is still dodging the real issue. Why do people come over from Mexico in droves, and yet we have no problems with Canadians? Because Mexico, especially the border towns like Juarez and Nogales, aren't great places to live. If we want to cut down on illegal immigration the answer is not a fence or the stupid, damn national guard, it's figuring out how to bring the quality of life in Mexico up to the same level as the United States.

We need to stop implicitly supporting the rampant corruption in the Mexican government, and we need to stop allowing U.S. companies to take advantage of poor Mexican workers. There needs to be better infrastructure in Mexico and more care needs to be given to education.

Many many hispanics come to America to earn money to send back to their families, perhaps we should endeavor to fix the fact that they feel they need to.

The Border Patrol has over a $6 billion budget, I think that most of it is going to waste fighting the symptoms of a much deeper problem.

[Specineff]

You nailed something right on the head. Back in 1996, I was doing data processing on DOS computers (MY KINGDOM FOR WINDOWS 95 WITH WORDPAD!), for 12 miserable dollars a week. A week. That came down to 120 pesos. You can't survive like that. Not even in Mexico. That should have been paid at least 6 dollars an hour.

[Michaelm]

and we need to stop allowing companies to take advantage of poor workers.

Slightly altered but still quoted for truth.

[CMoon]

However, I don't think official language amendments, efforts to protect "our" white culture, and other silly stuff has anything to do with illegal immigration and really do need to stop.

While most of it is silly, I don't think a national language is a bad idea. Having a national language is really all about economics too, not protecting any particular culture. I think one could further argue that without a national language we are only furthering the divisions between ethnic groups.

I'm not saying that we should do what was done 100 years ago--actually trying to stamp out the other languages--but making sure everyone in the US can speak English is a GOOD thing.

[howmuchkeefe]

They'll build detention centers all over the SW states (now, no one really seems to know what these prison camps are for; some think they're for relocating illegal immigrants, others think they'll be packed full of Muslims when the next terrorist attack hits- and quite possibly stocked with anyone found to be too friendly towards terrorists, too! Here's hoping that they don't put someone like Ann Coulter in charge of deciding who's a traitor and who isn't) before they'll do something that'd actually fix the problem: FINE AND INCARCERATE THOSE WHO HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

No need to build giant fucking walls; no need for creepy ass concentration camps; no need to hire thousands of rednecks to go about rounding up Mexicans; no need to force teachers, nurses and doctors to enforce our bullshit hypocritical immigration laws- Just fine the hell out of those who hire them, and price the actual illegal immigrants themselves out of the market (READ: manual labor in the hot hot sun sucks sucks sucks, and is easily worth $12-14/hour; if you post the position for $6, and no one but illegals show up to take the job, that's an excellent sign that you aren't offering what the job is worth doing for).

Problem solved.

*sigh*

...but back in the real world, corporations run our country. Better to build those camps; better to make our civil servants paper checking nazis; better to hate the victims of greed, rather than those who exploit them, those who are truly cheating us. We need that disenfranchised, underpaid underclass!

[sffan]

I think that everyone is still dodging the real issue. Why do people come over from Mexico in droves, and yet we have no problems with Canadians? Because Mexico, especially the border towns like Juarez and Nogales, aren't great places to live. If we want to cut down on illegal immigration the answer is not a fence or the stupid, damn national guard, it's figuring out how to bring the quality of life in Mexico up to the same level as the United States.

We need to stop implicitly supporting the rampant corruption in the Mexican government, and we need to stop allowing U.S. companies to take advantage of poor Mexican workers. There needs to be better infrastructure in Mexico and more care needs to be given to education.

Many many hispanics come to America to earn money to send back to their families, perhaps we should endeavor to fix the fact that they feel they need to.

The Border Patrol has over a $6 billion budget, I think that most of it is going to waste fighting the symptoms of a much deeper problem.

Maybe Mexico needs to fix its own economy and supply better jobs for its own people so they won't be desperate to come to the US. I would think that the Mexican government could do something about this. Why should the US have to fix Mexico?

And how exactly are we "implicitly supporting corruption in the Mexican government?" I'm not saying we aren't, I'm just unaware of it.

[The n00b]

However, I don't think official language amendments, efforts to protect "our" white culture, and other silly stuff has anything to do with illegal immigration and really do need to stop.

While most of it is silly, I don't think a national language is a bad idea. Having a national language is really all about economics too, not protecting any particular culture. I think one could further argue that without a national language we are only furthering the divisions between ethnic groups.

I'm not saying that we should do what was done 100 years ago--actually trying to stamp out the other languages--but making sure everyone in the US can speak English is a GOOD thing.

Which national language should it be and why should it be protected? Right now, English has no competition in the United States, or even in many parts of mexico. People are either completely fluent in it, speak enough to understand some of it(see ebonics, "redneck" english, or spanglish), or speak some other language but are capable of understanding simple English. Sure there are people who get along in the U.S. just fine speaking nothing but Spanish who have probably never even seen a person, outside of the tv, outside their ethnic group but that's their thing. The point is our economy has gotten along just fine without an "official" national language and even with America's patchwork of minorities, America has no problem inspiring vast displays of patriotism.

Plus putting a national language into law is needlessly divisive and only continues to fire the protests among the hispanic minority which in turn drive hate groups among the white minority. It's not just white hate groups either, I've noticed radical groups among hispanics getting more and more popular as this idiocy goes on. This legislation is just not worth the trouble when English is just naturally taking over the western hemisphere just by using its popularity.

[PaCrappa]

Maybe Mexico needs to fix its own economy and supply better jobs for its own people so they won't be desperate to come to the US. I would think that the Mexican government could do something about this. Why should the US have to fix Mexico?

The US doesn't have to do anything. We should want to help fix Mexico because we're spending $6 bil a year to not fix anything. Just a thought, it seems like we could take a fraction of that $6 bil, help Mexico greatly, thereby reducing the need for illegal immigration in the first place and still have $5 bil to totally squander on ineffective shit that only worsens the problem. So don't worry, it's not like we won't be able to keep wasting billions of dollars.

It really is a global village these days. If the most affluent nation in the universe can't help out the weaker ones (without bombing their population to shit) then what are we good for? Making ourselves fatter?

Pa

[VNAF Ace]

Illegal immigrants ruin it for legal immigrants (such as my parents and many of my relatives). They basically cut in line of everyone who followed the rules and took the time and effort to get into this country legally. Illegal immigrants are criminals and they should be deported.

We seriously need to beef up border security. How about letting those National Guard units actually guard the borders? A few head shots oughta discourage those fools from trespassing on American soil.

As for making English the official language of the US... Why not make it official? Most Americans speak English. Our tax dollars wouldn't be wasted on printing things like election ballots and DMV handouts in languages other than English. Besides, if you want to live and work America, then you really should learn English anyways. Hell, I'm saying this as someone who learned English as a 2nd language!

[PaCrappa]

Illegal immigrants ruin it for legal immigrants (such as my parents and many of my relatives).

Please explain how illegal immigrants have ruined "it" for your parents and relatives. What have they ruined? How bad did they ruin it? Can it ever be fixed? Would your parents and relatives be able to afford to buy fruits and vegetables in the USA if not for illegal immigrant labor?

Pa

[VNAF Ace]

Do you have any idea how long it takes an immigration application to go through? How about a US citizenship application? If the INS didn't have to deal with illegal immigrants, then the process would be much more efficient.

I have a friend who was born in Canada. His family legally came to the US back in the 80s. His family applied for US citizenship sometime in the 90s, but his citizenship application didn't go through until this year! My friend got accepted to UC Irvine back in 2002 but couldn't afford to go because he would've had to pay increased fees since he wasn't officially a US citizen yet.

As for illegal immigrant labor... That's where President Bush's guest worker program comes in. It allows us to know who is coming in to our country. Whoever wants to work in the US can apply and await approval. That's certainly much more secure than letting random people run across the border.

And speaking of those runners... A few 5.56 mm rounds oughta send them running back.

[The n00b]

Do you have any idea how long it takes an immigration application to go through? How about a US citizenship application? If the INS didn't have to deal with illegal immigrants, then the process would be much more efficient.

I have a friend who was born in Canada. His family legally came to the US back in the 80s. His family applied for US citizenship sometime in the 90s, but his citizenship application didn't go through until this year! My friend got accepted to UC Irvine back in 2002 but couldn't afford to go because he would've had to pay increased fees since he wasn't officially a US citizen yet.

As for illegal immigrant labor... That's where President Bush's guest worker program comes in. It allows us to know who is coming in to our country. Whoever wants to work in the US can apply and await approval. That's certainly much more secure than letting random people run across the border.

And speaking of those runners... A few 5.56 mm rounds oughta send them running back.

And these illegals will just voluntarily come out of the shadows and "register" for a guest worker program that wants to deport most illegals? Not that I have better solution for the problem but this solution sounds really stupid.

BTW you do know your sentiments were shared by many californians when it came to Asians, right? Don't be so quick to advocate a bullet in the head when the gun very well could be pointed at your own head.

[VNAF Ace]

My brothers and I are natural-born American citizens. My parents are legal immigrants and legal residents. We're not trespassing on American soil. What do we have to worry about?

[Eps]

Plus putting a national language into law is needlessly divisive

I would have to disagree with this. But then I'm not going to bother giving any reasons or saying much else, for I have long since tired of the black-and-white, one-camp-or-the-other style of US political debate.

[CMoon]

Plus putting a national language into law is needlessly divisive and only continues to fire the protests among the hispanic minority which in turn drive hate groups among the white minority.

Actually the solution is much easier than this. It goes back to the education program, and for the most part is what is happening anyway. Only having a few bilingual classes available, students are ultimately forced to take English ramp-up classes. All that is really necessary is that a national language is OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED, from there, budget constraints should fix the rest.

The point being that recognizing a national language should not be considered racial or cultual discrimation. This is not the same as trying to wipe out languages, or punishing children for speaking in native tongue. Rather, we are just recognizing their is an official language that all public messages and services will be transmitted in. This has for the most part been a necessity in every modern nation, and ultimately I think it is a GOOD thing.

[PaCrappa]

Do you have any idea how long it takes an immigration application to go through? How about a US citizenship application? If the INS didn't have to deal with illegal immigrants, then the process would be much more efficient.

Something tells me the INS office that enforces illegal immigration law and the INS office that approves citizenship applications are different offices. Unless there's only four guys on staff at INS or something.

Also, I know quite well how long it takes for applications to go through as I helped my previous girlfriend (from Ethiopia) gain her legal citizenship. The girlfriend previous to her was from Laos and she had many family members both in the country and out, seeking proper legal status.

Sorry about your Canadian friend having problems going to American college. How do the illegal immigrants (ya know, the ones that can't attend college?) factor into that one? Because I don't see it.

As for illegal immigrant labor... That's where President Bush's guest worker program comes in. It allows us to know who is coming in to our country. Whoever wants to work in the US can apply and await approval. That's certainly much more secure than letting random people run across the border.

Yeah right. That'll work like a charm. Just like the current naturalization and immigration setup does, right?

And speaking of those runners... A few 5.56 mm rounds oughta send them running back.

All I have to say to that one is that you're a self centered, short sighted, narrow minded little pussy. Sorry moderators. I don't see how I could've avoided saying that in the face of this guy's ongoing hate schitck.

Pa

[PaCrappa]

More:

I've never had a whole ton of respect for people who've inherited great wealth. At least not unless they use their money and/or notoriety to perform positive, life/society changing works for the greater good of the planet and its inhabitants. That's rare. The usual inheritor has more than he/she knows what to do with and often engages in wasteful or destructive behavior because he/she can't figure out anything awesome to do. It seems the only thing these people are usually capable of doing with their money is buying stuff that reflects how much money they have. They do this so that they can feel special and to let others know that they're not (and may never be) as special as someone who inherited a fuckload of money.

Sometimes money isn't the only thing people inherit. And remember kids, inheriting something isn't working for something. It's just getting lucky. Right place at the right time, etc.

Tangentially, I wanna ask, what is illegal immigration really? Put as simply as possible, it is people seeking a better future no matter what the present cost. Possible costs being (but not limited to) breaking the law, being incarcerated, being deported and maybe even being killed. I seem to recall a certain southeast Asian country that had a war in the 60s and 70s. In this war, people whose only crime was seeking a better future through freedom were killed by fascist communists. Interesting that a person whose family is only in the USA as a result of seeking a better future through freedom is using his inherited American freedom of speech to say that people seeking a better life should be killed for it.

At some point, VNAF Ace, some American people must've shown your family some sort of compassion. Otherwise they'd be dead, in Vietnam (possibly some other country) or too impoverished for you to own a computer. How about you show a little compassion and think this thing through instead of going out of your way to be selfish and negative with nothing more important to say than your usual sour schtick of fostering hate and xenophobia?

Yeah, I'm an inheritor of American citizenship and the great social wealth that comes with it too. I haven't changed many lives and I certainly haven't done much to positively change society. But I do get a certain feeling of dignity knowing that I don't go out of my way to be a douchebag toward the have-nots of the world, when some Americans find it perfectly natural. I thought it was the commies and fascists that needed to be be needlessly mean spirited about everyfuckingthing?

Pa

[Neon]

I do get a certain feeling of dignity knowing that I don't go out of my way to be a douchebag toward the have-nots of the world

Liberal bullshit! Those damned illegals broke our laws. How dare they? They should learn english and turn white.

[howmuchkeefe]

My understanding is that we're so good at growing food, we actually give away and burn a percentage of it in order to keep the stuff from flooding the market.

If only there were a way to increase its cost per unit!

[Specineff]

Awesome post, PA.

I don't mean to start a flame war, but I want to see proof of what they say about illegals draining the state of AZ of services like health and welfare. Granted, many go to an emergency room, get fixed, and leave without paying. But how can someone get welfare without the proper documents? Even with papers, it's hard to get unemployment sometimes here in Az.

I just want to see some proof.

On the other hand, as a mexican immigrant, I am VERY ashamed to see that my raza doesn't make an effort to learn english (F***ing Telemundo and Univision. Crap stations). That's a stigma that must be removed. I dream with the day we can say "Hello, black brothers and white brothers. We are your brothers from south the border, We have come to work together with you." In English.

(Damn, those medications sure are taking effect)

[PaCrappa]

Say there VNAF Ace, have you ever seen a temporary guest worker application?

You can either go to the embassy and pick one up or go online and fill one out. Strike one against poor people who don't speak English (the same ones that need the work in the first place, in case you're not putting it together by yourself).

It's seventeen pages long. All "simplified" legal speak. Strike two for the nonEnglish speaker.

There are at least three possible addendums for different possible situations. I'm not sure how lengthy these addendums are but the thing is already seventeen pages to begin with so let's just call it strike three.

Three strikes and you're out man. Got any better ideas?

Pa

[The n00b]

Why can't Spanish coexist with English in the United States? Spanish is rapidly disappearing on the North American continent so why can't a few ignorant guys act civilized and keep their mouths shut until the language finally dies and let it rest in peace? It's really not a threat to anyone.

I really wish a few ignorant holes would quit labeling spanish as a "foreign" language too. The history of spanish in the U.S. goes back hundreds of years so its as much our language as it is mexico's. It's as much a part of American culture as hotdogs, baseball, and communist witchhunts. Hell, spanish once held official status along with english in New Mexico.

BTW Spec: Our bilingual culture has always been my defense against Europeans that usually scoff at Americans who speak only one language and demand others speak english too else they get an American who well...speaks english really loudly until the offender is approriately subdued. I could always respond that at least Spanish is a valid language in the U.S. and it's accepted there. Also speak for yourself, I'm nobody's brother from south of the border unless you're talking about the one that was moved a hundred or so years ago. I watch telemundo and univision and I shouldn't have to avoid the sun for 2 weeks just to become "more american."

[Specineff]

Well, you were born there in TX, right? Therefore the statement doesn't apply to you. Besides, I am under medication at the moment, so don't take my posts too literally.

[BulletMagnet]

Spanish is rapidly disappearing on the North American continent...

Where do you get that sense from? From where I'm standing there's a lot more stuff being offered in Spanish as time goes on, at least around here...

That said, I certainly don't think that Spanish should be prohibited in the US or anything like that, but I do think that anyone who comes here with the intention of living here for awhile ought to at least learn enough English to get by...not being able to speak the lingua franca of any place tends to limit what you're able to do, not to mention how others perceive you (not that I approve of that, but it is true). I also don't think that anyone who speaks English as a second language deserves to be derided for not getting the grammar exactly right all the time: even as someone who's spoken English all his life, I know that compared to many other languages (Spanish included), English is HARD to learn. As such, I don't think it's fair to demand grammatical perfection (heck, those in the UK view American English as "butchered" as it is), but I do think that refusing to learn at least some of the language of the place where you live is often a way to limit your capabilities in that place.